thelittledragonthatcould Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 He knew damn well Tyrion did not kill Joff.Evidence for this? Tywin is a hypocrite; he forces his children to make sacrifices he does not. It's as easy as that. That is not Tywin, that is the feudal state. Patriarchs and Heads of Houses can make their family do things they themselves would not do. This is true in most structures, a General can order a soldier to clean the latrines when that General would not be prepared to do it himself. This is pretty simple. Though I'm not sure why you think he is a hypocrite in this situation. All family members have to marry when the Lord of their House arranges it, Tywin and his siblings was no different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bironic Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 Tywin might have also thought that to many heirs are even worse than to few: The Dance of Dragons as a prime example. Also the Lannister family was already quite big so no need for heirs. He had Jaime, Cersei, Tyrion, Kevan, Lancel, Martyn, Willam, Tygett, Tyrek, Gerion etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancho Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 I guess Jaime was the perfect son to him and he was holding in hope that his influence would set Jaime free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Lepus Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 I guess Jaime was the perfect son to him and he was holding in hope that his influence would set Jaime free.As I said earlier, marrying would have made it easier for Jamie to be released from his vows.Nobody would want a kingslayer and oathbreaker as kingsguard. Jamie, however, was kept because everybody knew that Tywin loathed Tyrion and would make Cersei or one of her kids his heir rather than allow Tyrion become the Lord of the Rock.Jon Arryn got King Bob to marry Cersei and keep Jamie as a kingsguard in order to get the Rock and the Westerlands for Bob's children; that way, the Iron Throne, the Crownlands, Dragonstone, the Stormlands and the Westerlands would all be under branches of Baratheon family, forming a power block that could keep the Realm united.However, if Tywin had remarried, he could get another male heir, and all that scheme falls down. If Tywin had another son there wouldn't be any reason to keep Jamie as a kingsguard. He would be released from his vows and Tywin would have the heir he originally wanted.I guess Tywin was just arrogant enough that he could at some point use the royal debt as leverage in order to force King Bob to release Jamie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 As I said earlier, marrying would have made it easier for Jamie to be released from his vows.Nobody would want a kingslayer and oathbreaker as kingsguard. Jamie, however, was kept because everybody knew that Tywin loathed Tyrion and would make Cersei or one of her kids his heir rather than allow Tyrion become the Lord of the Rock.Jon Arryn got King Bob to marry Cersei and keep Jamie as a kingsguard in order to get the Rock and the Westerlands for Bob's children; that way, the Iron Throne, the Crownlands, Dragonstone, the Stormlands and the Westerlands would all be under branches of Baratheon family, forming a power block that could keep the Realm united.However, if Tywin had remarried, he could get another male heir, and all that scheme falls down. If Tywin had another son there wouldn't be any reason to keep Jamie as a kingsguard. He would be released from his vows and Tywin would have the heir he originally wanted.I guess Tywin was just arrogant enough that he could at some point use the royal debt as leverage in order to force King Bob to release Jamie. None of that makes any sense. None whatsoever. These new children would not jump ahead of Tyrion in the succession line, Tyrion would still be the defacto heir. And any legitimate children Tyrion would have would also be ahead of them in the succession line, we even know that Tywin tried to get Tyrion married. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 None of that makes any sense. None whatsoever. These new children would not jump ahead of Tyrion in the succession line, Tyrion would still be the defacto heir. And any legitimate children Tyrion would have would also be ahead of them in the succession line, we even know that Tywin tried to get Tyrion married. to be fair, tywin will never give rock to tyrion. He wanted tyrion to go get winterfell. I think he will ask tommen release Jaime some day if he did not die. Joff proved it can be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Lepus Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 None of that makes any sense. None whatsoever. These new children would not jump ahead of Tyrion in the succession line, Tyrion would still be the defacto heir. And any legitimate children Tyrion would have would also be ahead of them in the succession line, we even know that Tywin tried to get Tyrion married.Tywin would find a way. He could force Tyrion to join the Faith or to become a Maester. And if he refused, he would send him to the Wall like Tarly did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 Tywin would find a way. He could force Tyrion to join the Faith or to become a Maester. And if he refused, he would send him to the Wall like Tarly did.And then Tyrions children would inherit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Lepus Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 And then Tyrions children would inherit. None of those groups allow their member to marry and have legitimate children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 None of those groups allow their member to marry and have legitimate children.You have read the books, right? Tywin married Tyrion off to Sansa. He tried several times before that to marry Tyrion off. Tyrion not having legitimate children is not down to Tywin. Tyrion's children would have inherited the Rock before any children from a second marriage Tywin may have had. Just before Joffrey is killed we see that Tyrion is married, with Tywin eager for him to have children, while Jaime is still in the Kingsguard. He is 27 the clock is ticking on Tywin being able to make him become a Maester, a Septon or join the Watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of the West Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 He knew damn well Tyrion did not kill Joff. But all Tywin preached about was legacy legacy legacy, carrying on the family name. But didnt care enough it seems, wanted his kids to do the dirty work, he is the one who cares so much not them, he should have least tried for some more heirs if that was the single most important thing to himDid he? Its said that Kevan never had a thought Lord Tywin didn't have first, and Kevan thinks that Tyrion did it. And before this we have Tyrion at points both taking to physical violence against Joffrey and threatning to have Tommen raped, with witnesses to all events. Tyrion has built up quite a record for himself in this regard.Tywin is perfectly well possible to do the dirty, work, including going to war against potentially three Great Houses in order to protect his kids and his grandchildren. And finally again, Tywin didn't lack for heirs. He had Jaime, even Eddard Stark assumes that Jaime will inherit after Tywin, Kingsguard or not, and then Tywin's children and grandchildren and cousins and their children and so on all are there and can inherit. In addition to this, do you recall the Dance of the Dragons? That's a lesson in the danger of having to many heirs and from more than one mother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bedding Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Great question. What strong and sensible lord let's love complicate matters of marriage and reproduction for the family? How often are highborns married for love in the story? There has to be some reason other than his strong feelings for his late wife. He was easily a much more responsible and dedicated leader than that. Ned Stark would have remarried. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redtree Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Maybe because he doesn't want his new son by new wife to absorbs Jaime's claim, it should be Tyrion but in reality he had never considered Tyrion until Jaime was captured by the Starks and he seemed ready to let go of him. If there were a 3rd son, i bet that kid would fight tooth and nail to get CR. Jaime's a kingsguard after all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Great question. What strong and sensible lord let's love complicate matters of marriage and reproduction for the family? How often are highborns married for love in the story? There has to be some reason other than his strong feelings for his late wife. He was easily a much more responsible and dedicated leader than that. Ned Stark would have remarried.Ned Stark has no brothers or sisters with children, no living first cousins who have children of their own. He would have a good reason to remarry if Cat died early. Tywin does not as there is a plethora of living Lannisters of Casterly Rock. Cat Stark puts it best:"The Lannisters of Casterly Rock were a damnably large and fertile house" Tywin has many, many heirs. Too many in fact, remarrying makes little sense. His first choice to replace him is Jaime, partly because he is his son but also because of the next generation of Lannisters he is the best qualified to be the leader. We only have to look at his interactions with the other Westerland armies in AFFC or how Robert wanted him made Warden of the East. For a point of reference let us look at the Arryns. Jon Arryn seemed perfectly fine with his nephew Elbert Arryn being his heir, when Elbert died he made Denys Arryn his heir, a cousin who was married to one of Jon's grandnieces. It is only after these two heirs both die within a year of each other that the elderly Jon takes another wife, and that is more to solidify an alliance with the Riverlands. If we go back further, the first Lord of the Vale in the modern era (last 300 years) was Ronnel Arryn, now he died along with his children, possibly grandchildren. Killed by his brother who was also then killed. So instead of Ronnel, his brother or their children ruling some Arryn cousin became Lord. 300 years later no one cares, as the name is important, not that every generation a son inherited from his father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bedding Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Jaime in the KG. How long did anyone think Tyrion would last? IIRC some even thought Tyrion offered in any marriage contract as a disrespectful mockery. So I would think that Tywin would receive many marriage offers from crafty and strategic lords. Very interesting question indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ghost of Someone Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 He did not want infighting for inheritance, besides, he had a pension it seems, for prostitutes and they have no inheritance rights. He also loved his wife, that much I am certain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wavey Sauce Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 So if Jaime were to marry. Not only a KG who killed a king but first KG ever to breath his oath and marry. (fyi I like jaime and his killing was justified, but looks bad legacy wise) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wavey Sauce Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 He did not want infighting for inheritance, besides, he had a pension it seems, for prostitutes and they have no inheritance rights. He also loved his wife, that much I am certain.Well he still was able to have sex and sleep with whores, so why not just marry again and dont leave everything on tyrion? Its not as if he loved his first wife so much he could never have sex with another woman.........well because he was doing that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Well he still was able to have sex and sleep with whores, so why not just marry again and dont leave everything on tyrion? Its not as if he loved his first wife so much he could never have sex with another woman.........well because he was doing thatBecause he would be creating yet more heirs when there was already multiple Lannisters heirs already. He does not need any. Gerold Lannister (Tywins grandfather) at the end of ADWD still has at least 22 living descendants. House Lannister does not need any more. This is what the author says on the subject"If you have a generation of five brothers and each of them has several children (sons?), after two or three generations you could find yourself with thirty potential heirs: there could be thirty people named Lannister or Frey, and that produces confict, because all of them are going to get involved in hereditary fights for the throne. That's what originated the War of the Roses; An excess of candidates for the throne, all of them descendants of Edward III. " It would be idiotic for Tywin to take another bride and create more heirs, especially when Jaime is his first choice and all these new heirs would be behind Tyrion (and his children) in the succession line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ghost of Someone Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Tywin intended for Jofrey's heirs it would seem or Tommen to inherit as Jaime could not and he meant to disinherit Tyrion altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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