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Angalin

R+L=J v.40

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Hey what happened? Okay where was I. Oh that right everyone declared I was right and my idea was perfect, thee end.

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Okay so why the change do we need like to come up with another new theory?

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Hey what happened? Okay where was I. Oh that right everyone declared I was right and my idea was perfect, thee end.

Nailed it, Creighton. We can all go home now.

If you (plural) already have this all figured out, why are you even on this forum discussing it? By the way you're talking, there's no room for arguments or discussion. If you all believe R+L=J, what's the point here, really?

Come on, now. If there's no room, how is this thread at v. 40? You bring the room with you. We've been doing nothing but argue.

The R+J=L theory is Westeros, this thread is the Wall, you (and people like you) are the Others, Jon Icefyre is LC, and the rest of us are all brothers trying to stop your crazy ass from destroying the realm.

I wanna be...Grenn?

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No offense meant, Jon Icefyre, but I totally agree with you that Apple Martini is probably our patron saint/Lord Commander on all things related to Jon, the North, and the Watch. R+L=J in particular.

... and tze is out maester, not seen that often, but with amazing insights whenever she turns up.

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No offense meant, Jon Icefyre, but I totally agree with you that Apple Martini is probably our patron saint/Lord Commander on all things related to Jon, the North, and the Watch. R+L=J in particular.

... and tze is out maester, not seen that often, but with amazing insights whenever she turns up.

Oh trust me I couldn't agree more with you. As I said before Apple Martini is at the top of the food chain :agree:

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Also, the necessary starting point for all our recruits:

For all guys who are new to this topic.

This post has been made by Doctor Pepper in R+L=J v. 34. Best read it before you start asking: "How can Jon be a Targ if he has a burned hand" or before you come up with "He doesn´t look like a Targaryen. I also recommend reading you the analyses of the links they are great.

Reference guide.

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:

Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:

Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:

Jon Snow Theories

Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?

Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targ fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?

Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Many of the Great Bastards did not have Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?

Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?

Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?

The evidence that Jon is probably the legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the KG opted to stay at the TOJ stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a KG vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty. For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?

The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the ASOIAF readership. Also, A Game of Throneshas been out since 1996. That's more than 15 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?

Ned doesn't think about anyone being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care? Who cares if he's legitimate?

Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Thank you Doctor Pepper this has been really great work!

(reposted from Lady of Whisperers R+L=J 38, original by Dr. Pepper in R+L=J 34)

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Well, let's start from beginning. R+L=J is true.

R+A=J false Stark is missing in equation

Let's take a look at combinations with constant Lyanna and other variables

A+L=J false, no need of secrecy here

Sr. B +L=J, Jr. B+L=J, and N+L=J false, enough incents

Aerys+L=J false

any KG+L=J false, no need of secrecy

No more combinations with Lyanna?

Lets' continue with constant Ned

A+N=J false, no need of secrecy

C+N=J nonsense

That's it.

Conclusion: R+L=J true

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Well, let's start from beginning. R+L=J is true.

R+A=J false Stark is missing in equation

Let's take a look at combinations with constant Lyanna and other variables

A+L=J false, no need of secrecy here

Sr. B +L=J, Jr. B+L=J, and N+L=J false, enough incents

Aerys+L=J false

any KG+L=J false, no need of secrecy

No more combinations with Lyanna?

Lets' continue with constant Ned

A+N=J false, no need of secrecy

C+N=J nonsense

That's it.

Conclusion: R+L=J true

Wait, did someone actually consider the possibility of A+L= J

That has got to be one of the weirdest theories I have actually seen.

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Wait, did someone actually consider the possibility of A+L= J

That has got to be one of the weirdest theories I have actually seen.

Yep Greymoon has been pretty adamant about it even though there's no evidence whatsoever to suggest such a thing. Greymoon also seems to think Rhaegar was bangin Ashara while the A+L=J was goin on....ha

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Yep Greymoon has been pretty adamant about it even though there's no evidence whatsoever to suggest such a thing. Greymoon also seems to think Rhaegar was baggin Ashara while the A+L=J was goin on....ha

I asume A is for Arthur and given the way everyone talks about him even after his death I doubt he broke his vows. Please don't say it was Aerys cause I am not wasting time going down that road.

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There was a theory that Rhaegar had Ashara and Lyanna at the same time, and he impregnated them both.

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There was a theory that Rhaegar had Ashara and Lyanna at the same time, and he impregnated them both.

Where did you hear about this theory?

Sorry, I was at work.

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Look if you want to really try and solve this problem you start from the beginning and follow the chain of evidence. If you don't know where the beginning is you got find it or you will never figure it out.

I still say Lyanna was in on it and that it happened in a port and they took a ship. I don't believe RT would rape anyone given what is known about him and I don't think he would kidnap anyone. You kidnap a woman, you rape her, you cause a war, and the women dies because of it? And Ned still thinks highly of him? No way, just no way, zero logic is involved with that line of thinking.

Given distance, given location, and given recent history it's impossible they made it from Winterfell to the tower. Bree and Jamie, Jamie was willing to go and they couldn't even get out of the Riverlands. That was in the middle of war, in the middle of chaos, with most of the people who could look for them occupied. Littlefinger and Sansa on the other hand? Sansa was willing, port city, ship, war basically over and the entire country looking for her and she got away. It had to be a ship and it had to be in or near a port city.

I don't think she was in KL or else Brandon would not have ridden to KL looking for RT. When you abduct away with someone you leave where you were at, or else nothing has actually happened.

I think Lyanna and RT had an affair for about a year after the Winter Tourney. Now I don't mean they were together everyday, but he is the Crown Prince, free to travel land and visit noble houses. She is also a noble free to travel and visit other noble families. Plus they can write each other letters.

I think they ran off when she got pregnant and it was planned and it was by ship.

Now I have made some points about Starfall, but I don't think I was clear enough about why I thought they went there. First while at see they would not have known about the war breaking out until they made port. They would have been avoiding major cities at all cost.

Now RT would not have been hiding Lyanna, people keep making that mistake. Everyone knew he had her, there is no point to it. So they ended up in Dorne and that was probably where they were going to begin with. First Dorne is the most loyal to the Targaryen's and house Dayne is the most loyal of the loyal to them. RT is basically family. Dorne also would not be offended by him taking another woman and sleeping with her. It's Dorne, they are totally cool with that, it's part of their culture. Dorne is literally his familly, they love him there as we know.

Now lets say he didn't want to get them involved so he was only going to hide in Dorne. Well as soon as he makes port he is going to find out about the war. Okay Dorne is involved and they know he has Lyanna Stark, in fact the are going off to war. Now their is really no point in hiding, it's not a secret you took her. He also wouldn't even need to hide she was pregnant, cause in Dorne he is not breaking any laws or doing anything offending. once the war broke out they did not need to be at the Tower of Joy.

I do not think she was at the Tower for very long. Tell me what is safer hiding in a old lookout tower that sits in the middle on the pass into Dorne with 3 guards? Or sitting in Starfall home of your most loyal alies and it's a fortress? And again it's not a secret who took her so you don't really need to hide, you need to be safe. Plsu after the war starts that is about as bad a location you can be in, troops are going to be coming and going. And it was not a very good secret if that is where he was hiding, clearly someone was keeping him posted on the war and Ned had no problem finding them either. I just think being at the Tower for months is just retarded, you got supply issues, you got people passing all the time, it's not secure. If that was a hiding spot it was a horrible one. They were not going to be able to hide there for long, no hiding spot is that good and this was a bad spot. Why do you think people on the run stay on the run. Starfall is safe, it's secure, it's trusted, if you need to escape you can leave by ship. If he really wanted to hide her he could of left Westeros. It's RT he is loaded, he has ships, money and men who serve him loyally.

I refuse to believe they were there for any extended period of time. They had to be at Starfall. I mean what is the point of hidingn their when you are in Dorne? Dorne would bend over backwards for him, they were dying for his dad and RT was the one they really loved. Any castle in Dorne would have put them up and protected them.

I think Sansa's escape serves as the best example, she got away, she is hiding in plain site, they used a ship, and she was in front of nobles and lords. Heck if RT left the ship before it got to Starfall, all you have is a pegnant woman coming on a ship, only a couple people in Starfall know what Lyanna looks like. She could pose as Ashara's handmaid.

Also I hope people drop the whole they got married thing. It has no effect on who Jon's parents are. You don't need to get married to make a baby, you just need to get busy.

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Alright.

I still believe Jon is half Dragon and half wolf. Pure man.

I wrote that theory, although I was only spitballing. I figure if I throw ideas out there, and then people basically prove them wrong or point out flaws then I can move on to a different idea and eliminate the stuff that doesn't work. Been here 3 days and just put up my 3rd or 4th theory. Feel free to wreck it. Just give me good reasons so I know where to adjust, drop, or change.

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I wrote that theory, although I was only spitballing. I figure if I throw ideas out there, and then people basically prove them wrong or point out flaws then I can move on to a different idea and eliminate the stuff that doesn't work. Been here 3 days and just put up my 3rd or 4th theory. Feel free to wreck it. Just give me good reasons so I know where to adjust, drop, or change.

Just drop everything that doesn't have a hint from the books. We don't want to write what could have happened, we are collecting what we know happened, as told by GRRM. Postulating complete scenarios that don't agree with known facts is not getting anywhere, quickly.

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Also I saw people talking about Wylla as a camp follower. Not possible, at least not the nurse that nursed Jon. We know exactly who road with Ned and no way he took a wet nurse when he didn't even know Jon was alive. Not to mention why would a wet nurse be a camp follower? That would have to be a first.

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