The Moment When All the Smiles Died

[J. Stargaryen]

Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

When I read this passage, I see an incredibly strong metaphor for the story of Jon Snow's conception. Assuming my interpretation is correct, I believe it constitutes some of the best R+L=J evidence out there. Here's what I mean.

The story of Jon's conception (re: the metaphor) begins when Rhaegar urges his horse past Elia, but I'm not going to start there. I want to start with the last part describing the crown. It's a crown of blue winter roses. This is important to understand because I believe that blue winter roses symbolize Jon Snow. Now, not fundamentally important to the theory, but interesting to note, is that the logical continuation of this metaphor - that is, a crown of blue winter roses - hints at Jon's royal blood and/or his royal future the same way a crown of golden lions would for a Lannister, or a crown of silver trout would for a Tully.

Okay, now back to the beginning. Like I was saying, the 'story' begins when Rhaegar urges his horse past Elia. This act mirrors his later romantic snub of her. In both cases he does so in favor of Lyanna. In other words, he twice chooses Lyanna Stark over his own wife; first when naming the QoLaB at Harrenhal, and then when he makes off with her for the ToJ.

The first choice is made when Rhaegar lays the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. An act which seems to simultaneously predict and confirm R+L=J. The item itself and its placement seem highly suggestive to me. The aforementioned crown of blue winter roses - aka, Jon Snow - is placed in his mother's lap. You guys know where babies come from, right? So if what I've said above is correct, the metaphor seems to say that Rhaegar spurned Elia in favor of Lyanna. He then placed Jon Snow in Lyanna's lap womb.

For bonus points, the description of the crown as a 'laurel' works as a clue that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. The word laurel literally describes the crown, while it figuratively represents honor. The notion of Rhaegar honoring Lyanna by placing Jon Snow in her lap probably contradicts the idea of Jon's bastardy. If not, giving birth to Jon Snow could turn out to be a tremendous honor, provided his character turns out to be the king/hero/messiah figure he's in line to be. Again, not necessarily of fundamental importance, but something worth noting.

[Winter's Knight]

You're putting the cart before the horse, I think. Blue roses symbolise Jon S. because they are associated with his mother's first meeting with Rhaegar, and not the other way around.

[J. Stargaryen]

You're putting the cart before the horse, I think. Blue roses symbolise Jon S. because they are associated with his mother's first meeting with Rhaegar, and not the other way around.

Are you saying that once blue winter roses are established as symbolism for Jon Snow that said symbolism cannot be applied retroactively? If so, I do not agree with that. Just because we don't necessarily find out that blue winter roses represent Jon until the HotU in ACoK, doesn't mean that they didn't represent him before that. In fact, I think it makes a lot of sense to assume the opposite and look for prior instances of this symbolism, once we become aware of a connection. Don't you?

[Mr Hodor]

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice

[JonNonRegis]

The symbolism of blue winter roses in the series is consistent and strong, but I think it may have been overinterpreted by the fans.

The story of Bael the Bard provides some insight into how blue winter roses had been perceived for hundreds of years: as symbols of Stark daughters.

Subsequent use of this symbol by Rhaegar, in naming another Stark daughter Queen of Love and Beauty, isn't very surprising given this context.

The blue flower growing from a chink in the wall of ice (if you believe prophecies have significant meaning in this series at all) thus does seem to suggest Lyanna, and to encourage us to think of Jon as Lyanna's son (since Jon is indeed at the Wall)... but his paternity seems not so clearly indicated. Nor is the idea that his parents were married.

For that, it seems we'd need to augment the blue rose with something else. Perhaps a dragon with a blue rose clenched in its teeth, which having hopped onto the Wall, balances on one leg and with the other whips out a blue winter Tiffany box with an engagement ring inside it.

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

...... In fact, I think it makes a lot of sense to assume the opposite and look for prior instances of this symbolism, once we become aware of a connection. Don't you?

Okay then let's establish when the connection might have originated.

Blue winter roses being linked to fair maidens of Stark goes way before Jon Snow. It goes back to the legend of Bael the Bard.

He asked Lord Stark the most beautiful of flower in blooming in Winterfell's gardens (The singer went under a different name that in skaggos meant deceiver)

Brandon Stark thought he wanted "the blue winter rose" which had just bloomed so he agreed.

But the singer took his maiden daughter and left the blue winter rose in her bed.

They hid in the crypts of Winterfell while Brandon went everywhere even beyond the wall looking for his daughter. When the daughter one day she reappeared with a babe in her lap. The singer and her bastard became the next Lord Stark.

mance twice copied this idea to enter winterfell as Abel the bard(anogram of Bael who entered as a deciever). Once was just to see the King of the Iron Throne, the next time to steal the maid of winterfell "arya"

[Blue Rose Direwolf]

When I read this passage, I see an incredibly strong metaphor for the story of Jon Snow's conception. Assuming my interpretation is correct, I believe it constitutes some of the best R+L=J evidence out there. Here's what I mean.

The story of Jon's conception (re: the metaphor) begins when Rhaegar urges his horse past Elia, but I'm not going to start there. I want to start with the last part describing the crown. It's a crown of blue winter roses. This is important to understand because I believe that blue winter roses symbolize Jon Snow. Now, not fundamentally important to the theory, but interesting to note, is that the logical continuation of this metaphor - that is, a crown of blue winter roses - hints at Jon's royal blood and/or his royal future the same way a crown of golden lions would for a Lannister, or a crown of silver trout would for a Tully.

Okay, now back to the beginning. Like I was saying, the 'story' begins when Rhaegar urges his horse past Elia. This act mirrors his later romantic snub of her. In both cases he does so in favor of Lyanna. In other words, he twice chooses Lyanna Stark over his own wife; first when naming the QoLaB at Harrenhal, and then when he makes off with her for the ToJ.

The first choice is made when Rhaegar lays the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. An act which seems to simultaneously predict and confirm R+L=J. The item itself and its placement seem highly suggestive to me. The aforementioned crown of blue winter roses - aka, Jon Snow - is placed in his mother's lap. You guys know where babies come from, right? So if what I've said above is correct, the metaphor seems to say that Rhaegar spurned Elia in favor of Lyanna. He then placed Jon Snow in Lyanna's lap womb.

For bonus points, the description of the crown as a 'laurel' works as a clue that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. The word laurel literally describes the crown, while it figuratively represents honor. The notion of Rhaegar honoring Lyanna by placing Jon Snow in her lap probably contradicts the idea of Jon's bastardy. If not, giving birth to Jon Snow could turn out to be a tremendous honor, provided his character turns out to be the king/hero/messiah figure he's in line to be. Again, not necessarily of fundamental importance, but something worth noting.

I'm hoping you're right. I'd love it if it was true!

[Independent George]

I think you're reading way too much into this. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

[Lion of Judah]

Okay then let's establish when the connection might have originated.

Blue winter roses being linked to fair maidens of Stark goes way before Jon Snow. It goes back to the legend of Bael the Bard.

He asked Lord Stark the most beautiful of flower in blooming in Winterfell's gardens (The singer went under a different name that in skaggos meant deceiver)

Brandon Stark thought he wanted "the blue winter rose" which had just bloomed so he agreed.

But the singer took his maiden daughter and left the blue winter rose in her bed.

They hid in the crypts of Winterfell while Brandon went everywhere even beyond the wall looking for his daughter. When the daughter one day she reappeared with a babe in her lap. The singer and her bastard became the next Lord Stark.

mance twice copied this idea to enter winterfell as Abel the bard(anogram of Bael who entered as a deciever). Once was just to see the King of the Iron Throne, the next time to steal the maid of winterfell "arya"

It's a good story, but it ends in a very tragic way.

[Last Stark]

I accept that R+L=J however i question the marriage. The Targs have a history of polygamy but the Starks keep the old gods and I havent seen any reference to polygamy in the North. Lyanna was swept off her feet and whisked away from her family but would she have married?

[J. Stargaryen]

Okay then let's establish when the connection might have originated.

Why though? I fail to see how the chronology of blue winter rose appearances is relevant. Please explain.

Blue winter roses being linked to fair maidens of Stark goes way before Jon Snow. It goes back to the legend of Bael the Bard.

He asked Lord Stark the most beautiful of flower in blooming in Winterfell's gardens (The singer went under a different name that in skaggos meant deceiver)

Brandon Stark thought he wanted "the blue winter rose" which had just bloomed so he agreed.

But the singer took his maiden daughter and left the blue winter rose in her bed.

They hid in the crypts of Winterfell while Brandon went everywhere even beyond the wall looking for his daughter. When the daughter one day she reappeared with a babe in her lap. The singer and her bastard became the next Lord Stark.

mance twice copied this idea to enter winterfell as Abel the bard(anogram of Bael who entered as a deciever). Once was just to see the King of the Iron Throne, the next time to steal the maid of winterfell "arya"

I'm familiar with the Bael the Bard story. It ends with the birth of a female line Stark. Jon Snow is a female line Stark. I think the BtB story is a clue to that.

[J. Stargaryen]

I think you're reading way too much into this. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

I stand corrected. :)

[Free Northman]

When I read this passage, I see an incredibly strong metaphor for the story of Jon Snow's conception. Assuming my interpretation is correct, I believe it constitutes some of the best R+L=J evidence out there. Here's what I mean.

The story of Jon's conception (re: the metaphor) begins when Rhaegar urges his horse past Elia, but I'm not going to start there. I want to start with the last part describing the crown. It's a crown of blue winter roses. This is important to understand because I believe that blue winter roses symbolize Jon Snow. Now, not fundamentally important to the theory, but interesting to note, is that the logical continuation of this metaphor - that is, a crown of blue winter roses - hints at Jon's royal blood and/or his royal future the same way a crown of golden lions would for a Lannister, or a crown of silver trout would for a Tully.

Okay, now back to the beginning. Like I was saying, the 'story' begins when Rhaegar urges his horse past Elia. This act mirrors his later romantic snub of her. In both cases he does so in favor of Lyanna. In other words, he twice chooses Lyanna Stark over his own wife; first when naming the QoLaB at Harrenhal, and then when he makes off with her for the ToJ.

The first choice is made when Rhaegar lays the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. An act which seems to simultaneously predict and confirm R+L=J. The item itself and its placement seem highly suggestive to me. The aforementioned crown of blue winter roses - aka, Jon Snow - is placed in his mother's lap. You guys know where babies come from, right? So if what I've said above is correct, the metaphor seems to say that Rhaegar spurned Elia in favor of Lyanna. He then placed Jon Snow in Lyanna's lap womb.

For bonus points, the description of the crown as a 'laurel' works as a clue that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. The word laurel literally describes the crown, while it figuratively represents honor. The notion of Rhaegar honoring Lyanna by placing Jon Snow in her lap probably contradicts the idea of Jon's bastardy. If not, giving birth to Jon Snow could turn out to be a tremendous honor, provided his character turns out to be the king/hero/messiah figure he's in line to be. Again, not necessarily of fundamental importance, but something worth noting.

Very good analysis. I fully agree.

[Cruella]

It's a good story, but it ends in a very tragic way.

I think it's a creepy story. Of course it ends in tragic way.

Did she go with him willingly or fell in love as stockholm complex? I assume he seduced her and convinced her to go. (I wonder what they lived off all this time, though.)

How old was she? Did she understand what she was getting into?

He dishonoured her and fucked off, leaving enamoured girl and their baby son behind. Very romantic.

Of course he later led army against them. That was sweet. But of course he let himself be killed by his son, supposedly. Which is very sweet, except for those wildings who put trust in him and were probably slaughtered after losing their commander.

[J. Stargaryen]

I accept that R+L=J however i question the marriage. The Targs have a history of polygamy but the Starks keep the old gods and I havent seen any reference to polygamy in the North. Lyanna was swept off her feet and whisked away from her family but would she have married?

Welcome to the forums. :)

The question of whether or not Lyanna would have married Rhaegar is important enough that it is worth looking for clues of such a union in the text. I can't definitively say I've found one, but I might have, and I wanted to share that. Let's put the evidence under the microscope and see what it looks like then.

The symbolism of blue winter roses in the series is consistent and strong, but I think it may have been overinterpreted by the fans.

Interesting, because this is one of my more toned down Jon-blue winter rose theories. :) Personally, I think I'm making fair use of the metaphor. I'm simply applying the blue winter rose symbol to Jon the same way that one would apply krakens to Greyjoys, or stags to Baratheons.

The story of Bael the Bard provides some insight into how blue winter roses had been perceived for hundreds of years: as symbols of Stark daughters.

And the HotU gives us a clue that maybe people were, to borrow a phrase, over interpreting the Stark daughter's place in the metaphor. After all, was the blue winter rose left by Bael more representative of the daughter he stole, or the son he gave? Instead of Stark daughters, perhaps the blue winter rose is meant to symbolize female line Stark sons.

And then there is the whole issue of the Bael story being awfully similar to R&L's story. Rhaegar is a bard himself, he stole Lyanna, and he gave the Starks a female line son.

Subsequent use of this symbol by Rhaegar, in naming another Stark daughter Queen of Love and Beauty, isn't very surprising given this context.

The blue flower growing from a chink in the wall of ice (if you believe prophecies have significant meaning in this series at all) thus does seem to suggest Lyanna, and to encourage us to think of Jon as Lyanna's son (since Jon is indeed at the Wall)... but his paternity seems not so clearly indicated. Nor is the idea that his parents were married.

For that, it seems we'd need to augment the blue rose with something else. Perhaps a dragon with a blue rose clenched in its teeth, which having hopped onto the Wall, balances on one leg and with the other whips out a blue winter Tiffany box with an engagement ring inside it.

Sure, it suggests Lyanna, but it doesn't mean Lyanna; it means Jon. The blue winter roses are seemingly used to symbolize Rhaegar and Lyanna's love. Jon, it turns out, is the ultimate symbol of that love - a sort of metaphor incarnate. The logical conclusion I've drawn from this metaphorical equivalence is that Jon is the blue winter rose.

[Techelles]

OP

I like it, especially the last two paragraphs. It's possible that it could be one of those things that the author goes back to and says, "Hell, even I never thought of that!" But then again, maybe not. And I prefer your idea. I certainly believe that every mention of a blue winter rose has something to do with Jon Snow.

Side note: Good to see some ideas in favor of Jon's legitimacy. I tend to believe that Jon is legitimate, but like some others I don't think Jon will go for the IT. I think Rhaegar's blood is significant, but not necessarily in a way that being a bastard would contradict. In the thread linked in my sig, I go into my idea of the significance a bit, and while I don't specifically mention the potential irrelevance of bastardy there (in fact, it kind of looks a lot like I'm assuming the necessity of legitimacy), it's something I've been thinking about more and more.

Are you saying that once blue winter roses are established as symbolism for Jon Snow that said symbolism cannot be applied retroactively? If so, I do not agree with that. Just because we don't necessarily find out that blue winter roses represent Jon until the HotU in ACoK, doesn't mean that they didn't represent him before that. In fact, I think it makes a lot of sense to assume the opposite and look for prior instances of this symbolism, once we become aware of a connection. Don't you?

Completely agree here. That HotU line made me go back and look for every mention of a blue rose I could find.

They hid in the crypts of Winterfell while Brandon went everywhere even beyond the wall looking for his daughter. When the daughter one day she reappeared with a babe in her lap. The singer and her bastard became the next Lord Stark.

I forgot that the baby became Lord Stark. This definitely makes me even more confident than ever that Jon Snow is not dead. And if I choose one interpretation over another, it could even help with the case for Jon's legitimacy.

[Blue Winter Roses]

And then there is the whole issue of the Bael story being awfully similar to R&L's story. Rhaegar is a bard himself, he stole Lyanna, and he gave the Starks a female line son.

Sure, it suggests Lyanna, but it doesn't mean Lyanna; it means Jon. The blue winter roses are seemingly used to symbolize Rhaegar and Lyanna's love. Jon, it turns out, is the ultimate symbol of that love - a sort of metaphor incarnate. The logical conclusion I've drawn from this metaphorical equivalence is that Jon is the blue winter rose.

Ah! Brilliant. A very thorough analysis and interpretation. I do think that every word, symbol and metaphor is a clue. The parallel between the Bael story and R+L definitely confirms it for me.

[J. Stargaryen]

I like it, especially the last two paragraphs. It's possible that it could be one of those things that the author goes back to and says, "Hell, even I never thought of that!" But then again, maybe not. And I prefer your idea. I certainly believe that every mention of a blue winter rose has something to do with Jon Snow.

Thank you. Glad you liked it.

BTW, :agree: with the bold

Side note: Good to see some ideas in favor of Jon's legitimacy. I tend to believe that Jon is legitimate, but like some others I don't think Jon will go for the IT. I think Rhaegar's blood is significant, but not necessarily in a way that being a bastard would contradict. In the thread linked in my sig, I go into my idea of the significance a bit, and while I don't specifically mention the potential irrelevance of bastardy there (in fact, it kind of looks a lot like I'm assuming the necessity of legitimacy), it's something I've been thinking about more and more.

My theory that has Jon playing the Henry Tudor role in ASoIaF's rendition of the WotR sees him become king based off of his Stark legitimacy via Robb's will. The story currently provides an in universe explanation for Jon's Stark claim; i.e., Robb's will. The same cannot be said for his Targaryen claim. Due to the highly secret nature of marriage, it's possible that no good evidence for it exists. For one reason or another, his Targaryen claim ends up not being a factor politically. Or so the theory says.

Completely agree here. That HotU line made me go back and look for every mention of a blue rose I could find.

:agree:

[J. Stargaryen]

I'm hoping you're right. I'd love it if it was true!

Very good analysis. I fully agree.

Ah! Brilliant. A very thorough analysis and interpretation. I do think that every word, symbol and metaphor is a clue. The parallel between the Bael story and R+L definitely confirms it for me.

Thank you! I'm glad that some of you seem to like this idea as much as I do. I usually like my ideas a lot more than everyone else does. :lol:

[The Chequered Raven]

For that, it seems we'd need to augment the blue rose with something else. Perhaps a dragon with a blue rose clenched in its teeth, which having hopped onto the Wall, balances on one leg and with the other whips out a blue winter Tiffany box with an engagement ring inside it.

Curse you! I think i will not get this picture out of my head for a couple of hours... ;-)