Jaqen H'ghar / Faceless Men against the Dragons (and Arya?)

[Duckhead]

Hi all, warning, possible spoilers...

If I remember correctly, in AFFC, Jaqen H'ghar infultraited the Maester's Citadel. There are some theories about why he's doing this. It may be because he's looking for a book on how to kill Dragons (book refenced by Tyrion in ADWD).

If that assumption is correct then another assumption we can make is that the Faceless Men want the Dany's Dragons dead.

If that assumption is correct, then Arya's next mission might be to kill Dany.

So who would hire the Faceless Men to kill Dragon's (and Dany by default)?

She certainly has made enemies, but nobody in Westros is really concerned about her yet.

Prat Pree? I think he's in Pentos right now right? Maybe made a stop at Bravos...

In all honesty, could be any of her enemies in the east that hired the Faceless Men.. just looking to see how these threads intertwine

thoughts?

[The Iron Suitor]

All Bravosi have something against Dany because Bravos was formed by former Valyrian slaves. So they all will have something against Dany and her dragons.

[Veltigar]

All Bravosi have something against Dany because Bravos was formed by former Valyrian slaves. So they all will have something against Dany and her dragons.

NO, if anything the Bravosi love her because she's busy abolishing slavery.

Back on topic: Recentley somebody asked this question (are they hired to kill Dany/dragons) to GRRM and he answered "not yet".

Personally, I believe that Jaqen has gone rogue.

I've recentley made a large thread wit my own prediction for the first half of tWoW which dug in to some of the things this topic brings up) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/80773-my-personal-predictions-for-the-first-part-of-the-wow/ (look at the Arya and Samwell chapters in particular)

[Marmelodov]

I wonder if Jaqen is a rogue FM; they seemed really strict about rules when it came to killing people while Arya was in the house of black and white. Jaqen seemed relatively liberal when it came to dealing out death. I've always been confused about this whole thing. Mayne Jaqen is working for someone else to kill dragons/Dany and the FM are unaware.

[The Singer]

Wasn't Jaqen (Syrio too, if you believe) in Westeros before anyone knew there were Dragons?

I have wondered what Syrio/Jaqen/The Alchemist/Pate is doing in Westeros, but I don't think it's to do with Dragons.

[True_lord_of_york]

Wasn't pyat pree and a few other wizards captured by euron and he killed atleast one of them for threatening him and fed him to the other wizards? And they told him a curious tale

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

Hi all, warning, possible spoilers...

If I remember correctly...... It may be because .....

If that assumption is correct then.....

If that assumption is correct....... might.....so who would hire the Faceless Men to kill?

I think ? Maybe...

In all honesty...

thoughts?

The assumption about what book a man wants is probably incorrect. A man doesn't even say that a man wants a book.

"

1. FM more than most likely have a dragon egg they got from Euron.

2. Citadel has the most information about dragonlore of all of most of Westros combined.

3. Almost all the citadel don't want magic or dragons in the world.

Getting information seems to be a part of their big picture.

[Anima]

Pate being Jaqen is still just an assumption based on a few words and a strange behaviour nothing more. I for one do not believe this whole FM and Citadel conspiracy theory.

As for Syrio and Jaqen being the same person I think GRRM said that Syrio was dead (like definitely) so that's unlikely.

[Black Wolf Smith]

Pate being Jaqen is still just an assumption based on a few words and a strange behaviour nothing more. I for one do not believe this whole FM and Citadel conspiracy theory.

As for Syrio and Jaqen being the same person I think GRRM said that Syrio was dead (like definitely) so that's unlikely.

I suggest you reread it. Its pretty much a fact. Pate died, but yet "Pate" greets Sam when he gets to the Citadel. The discription of the man that killed him is with out a doubt the same face that Arya last saw Jaqen turn into.

As to the OP, the assumption that Jaqen is looking to kill dragons, is stupid. If all he wanted was to get a book, he would have gotten it, and been gone. He is there for something bigger. Might be to learn all that the maesters knows so he can educate the FM. Might be to kill one of the leaders of the Citadel.

IMO he wasn't the FM that killed Balon either.

[Runaway Penguin]

A man called Jaqen is dead as dodo as well ;)

I do not think he's gone rogue, I don't think FM are all that is told to Arya. I guess there is the public facade - the House, the oert contract work - and then there are let's say "special operatives" who pursue whatever policy the FM or Iron Bank of Braavos have.

Part of this policy seems to be "no slaves" - so they are watching closely what happens in slaver's Bay.

"Jaqen's" mission makes sense from several aspects:

1. IF they got the dragon egg, having a dragon to defend Braavos in case of severe crisis may be useful. The book may contain info how to hatch and train it.

2. IF they are concerned with Dany and her dragons, learning how to kill them is essential

3. IF they are unsure, learning how to kill dragons "just in case" is useful

4. IF they actually like what Dany is doing (or "knda like"), learning how to kill her dragons may help to prevent anyone else from killing them.

EDIT: It can be assumed that the procedure won't be easy and it won't be just "have a brief look in the book", there may be some cross-referencing to do ;) Just killing someone in the Citadel would be much faster than archive research ;))

"Jaqen's" tour seems to be strangely aimed though - but Winterfell is rumored to have a nice library, and Night's Watch library is bigger and more ancient. It would seem that the northbound journey was abandoned after the news of sack of Winterfell...

[stalin]

Why would the Faceless Men want the dragons dead?

Think about this... the presence of dragons increases the potency of magic.

The faceless men rely on magic for their craft. Wouldnt it be logical that they BENEFIT from the dragons?

In fact, I believe they infiltrated the Citadel to destroy it from within, because the citadel is trying to kill the dragons.

Thoughts on this?

[Archmaester]

Wasn't pyat pree and a few other wizards captured by euron and he killed atleast one of them for threatening him and fed him to the other wizards? And they told him a curious tale

Intriguing, is there any proof/suggestion somewhere that I have missed that the 'wizards' captured by Euron include Pyat Pree?

[Marmelodov]

Why would the Faceless Men want the dragons dead?

Think about this... the presence of dragons increases the potency of magic.

The faceless men rely on magic for their craft. Wouldnt it be logical that they BENEFIT from the dragons?

In fact, I believe they infiltrated the Citadel to destroy it from within, because the citadel is trying to kill the dragons.

Thoughts on this?

I actually don't know if they actually do rely on magic because they deliberately mention to Arya that they don't use glamours or sorcery to change their faces and instead literally wear other people's faces; the ones they remove from the people who go to the house of black and white to die. I also believe they imply to Arya that they remove their own faces in order to wear another. Maybe they are deceiving her and magic really is involved or maybe I misunderstand but I think the logistics of their face-changing abilities remains a mystery.

[not in the face]

A man called Jaqen is dead as dodo as well ;)

I do not think he's gone rogue, I don't think FM are all that is told to Arya. I guess there is the public facade - the House, the oert contract work - and then there are let's say "special operatives" who pursue whatever policy the FM or Iron Bank of Braavos have.

Part of this policy seems to be "no slaves" - so they are watching closely what happens in slaver's Bay.

"Jaqen's" mission makes sense from several aspects:

1. IF they got the dragon egg, having a dragon to defend Braavos in case of severe crisis may be useful. The book may contain info how to hatch and train it.

2. IF they are concerned with Dany and her dragons, learning how to kill them is essential

3. IF they are unsure, learning how to kill dragons "just in case" is useful

4. IF they actually like what Dany is doing (or "knda like"), learning how to kill her dragons may help to prevent anyone else from killing them.

EDIT: It can be assumed that the procedure won't be easy and it won't be just "have a brief look in the book", there may be some cross-referencing to do ;) Just killing someone in the Citadel would be much faster than archive research ;))

"Jaqen's" tour seems to be strangely aimed though - but Winterfell is rumored to have a nice library, and Night's Watch library is bigger and more ancient. It would seem that the northbound journey was abandoned after the news of sack of Winterfell...

Why do you need a book to tell you how to kill dragons? Urrax was killed by being stabbed through the eye by Serwyn of the Mirror Shield. Even that guy in the fighting pits pierced Drogon's skin with a boar spear. Any FM seems capable of killing a dragon rather easily with their skill set. I think you are right about the birth and control aspect though.

[The Real Summer Islander]

Why would the Faceless Men want the dragons dead?

Think about this... the presence of dragons increases the potency of magic.

The faceless men rely on magic for their craft. Wouldnt it be logical that they BENEFIT from the dragons?

In fact, I believe they infiltrated the Citadel to destroy it from within, because the citadel is trying to kill the dragons.

Thoughts on this?

faceless men do not use magic, read the ugly little girl.

[ObsidiaNPhoenix]

Why would the Faceless Men want the dragons dead?

Think about this... the presence of dragons increases the potency of magic.

The faceless men rely on magic for their craft. Wouldnt it be logical that they BENEFIT from the dragons?

In fact, I believe they infiltrated the Citadel to destroy it from within, because the citadel is trying to kill the dragons.

Thoughts on this?

The Faceless Men do not rely on magic, only good techniques and skills. And there isn't exactly a monopoly on how to kill dragons, people probably have a general idea that attacking them might work, or using a mirror shield to confuse the dragon.

[thewingedwolf]

I wonder if Jaqen is a rogue FM; they seemed really strict about rules when it came to killing people while Arya was in the house of black and white.

Actually the point was brought up recently that there may be several "layers" to the FM as an organization and that one may be resposible for carrying the own agenda of the FM and that Jaqen was one of them. Case in point, he was able to change faces on the fly whereas the other FM need to be in House of Black and White to do it.

Therefore I do not believe Jaqen to be rogue (or Syrio Forel) I believe he is on a mission of a greater scale than just an assassination perhaps one that is part of the FM's own agenda.

[summer_stark]

I actually don't know if they actually do rely on magic because they deliberately mention to Arya that they don't use glamours or sorcery to change their faces and instead literally wear other people's faces; the ones they remove from the people who go to the house of black and white to die. I also believe they imply to Arya that they remove their own faces in order to wear another. Maybe they are deceiving her and magic really is involved or maybe I misunderstand but I think the logistics of their face-changing abilities remains a mystery.

They dont remove their own faces. The faces go on top of their own. Re-read aryas ch where she gets a new face :).

[Zman1863]

The FM strike me as a neutral organization. If they assign Arya after Dany or another major character, it won't be because of some as yet unseen ugliness in their philosophy or structure. They are mercenaries and their philosophy is a lot more logical and sympathetic than other groups and characters in the series. Arya's chapters have already strongly hinted that her exit from their influence will come from her inability to truly give all of herself to the many faced god. It's not them, it's her. I view their role in the story as to mainly be a conduit for other characters stories to be moved along. Arya's need for them is obvious. They are giving her training and eventual proximity back into the midst of other main characters. We don't know who sent the FM we know as Jaqen to the citadel. The FM are an means to an end and not an end itself.

[True_lord_of_york]

I'm almost sure he names the ship that the wizards were known to be on. Also it was known that 3 wizards left quarth. What I do know for sure though that euron specifically states that he captured a ship out of quarth with 3 wizards on it who told a curious tale. When one presumed to threaten him he killed him and fed him to his wizards. They refused at first but eventually they did. And there was some other stuff too. I know he had a case or 2 of shade of the evening tht doesn't sound very tasty but sounds like a good time.