R+L=J v.41

[The Killer Snark]

I admit that I went off Arya the moment Martin decided to make her a fullblown sociopath. I admire her more than I like her now. Her leaving Sandor to his doom has to go down as one of the most despicable actions in the books. With Brandon Leto Atreides II Stark becoming a tree now, this leaves only Rickon (who is a child), Sansa (who's in no position to do anything) and Jon as the only fully empathetic human characters in the books. The polar opposites thing with Jon and Dany is why I believe they will marry. Jon is a competent leader but a reluctant commander. Dany is a brilliant general but a reluctant ruler. They would both balance each other out.

[lojzelote]

Neither do I :-)

If Jon is already Ice + Fire, then Dany becomes somewhat redundant, and I'm afraid that she is heading rather for "fire and blood" and perhaps become "the bride of fire" as the sacrifice which will pay for life.

What sacrifice she should pay for life?

[The Killer Snark]

If Martin thinks that he can kill either of the two most popular characters off after the wails of despair when he bumped off Oberyn, it will lead to a lot of books getting thrown across rooms.

[Isildur's Mane]

That is fair, and more or less what some others have said. However, a lot of those same people - really all of us - also expect to be surprised by GRRM. Well, if you can't see this idea just yet, then maybe this is just the type of surprise you should expect. ;)

BTW, welcome to the forum. Let me know if you need any help with figuring things out.

Thanks for the welcome :)

Yes, I still expect to be suprised too. I'm just not seeing this at the moment - but I'm not totally against it either. I can see that he may have to marry to form an alliance, just not sure if it will be Margaery.

[Yukle]

If Martin thinks that he can kill either of the two most popular characters off after the wails of despair when he bumped off Oberyn, it will lead to a lot of books getting thrown across rooms.

Not only that, but the story can't survive without certain characters. Jon and Dany are protagonists. If they died, it would be impossible for the audience to care about anyone enough to accept those plot lines going on. Unless that's the end of the story. It's why killing a protagonist is a no-no; it's not because it's just annoying but because the story doesn't work.

[The Killer Snark]

Yes. I agree. It would be literary suicide. Even Frank Herbert didn't bother to kill Paul off in Dune 3 until he'd been made redundant by the storyline. I still spit blood about Oberyn Martell. Disney-villain handsome guy with a sharp sense of humour and a bisexual sex addict, who has a soft spot for Tyrion and kills Gregor Clegane. Then dies. I was so depressed at that I found it difficult to follow the next Dany chapter and had to put the book down. Couldn't believe that GRRM would do that. Even GRRM must realise the amount of hate he'd get for killing off Jon.

[Yukle]

Even GRRM must realise the amount of hate he'd get for killing off Jon.

I have my fingers crossed he doesn't kill of key characters just because no one does that and it's just different.

Think of it this way: given the series may take a total of 20 years between books, can anyone honestly say they could read the last page of a series where we follow Jon's and Dany's great journeys only to have them murdered by the Others who proclaim victory and then feel satisfied with a worthwhile reading experience?

It would really make me feel cheated and as though the whole series wasn't worth it. The only reason I like the current tragedy is because I assume it will be all worthwhile.

[The Killer Snark]

Same here. Georgy, you have a reader's petition going not to kill Jon or Dany off just because it's something that hasn't been done yet in Fantasy. You've already made us throw up at the Red Wedding, killed The Red Viper and had Theon ripped apart by Ramsay. Give us all a break.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Does anyone else suspect that GRRM threw in the story about Ned and the fisherman's daughter in aDwD just to muddy the water because too many people were figuring out R+L=J?

So we're having a blizzard where I live and I woke up to 2 feet of snow and a new R+L=J thread already 3 pages in. I have my work cut out for me today :)

I think GRRM threw the fisherman's daughter in as an in-story red herring. In other words, he's not trying to distract us but rather to show why it isn't more obvious to the people in-story where Jon came from.

Also because I can't multi quote from my phone: JS- I love the blue rose symbolism. I've seen you bring it up on a couple of threads and it's one of those that really makes me miss the like button :)

[The Killer Snark]

The blue rose symbolism is one of those moments I only caught after it was mentioned here. Kudos. Makes perfect sense.

[J. Stargaryen]

<snip>

JS- I love the blue rose symbolism. I've seen you bring it up on a couple of threads and it's one of those that really makes me miss the like button :)

The blue rose symbolism is one of those moments I only caught after it was mentioned here. Kudos. Makes perfect sense.

Thanks, both of you. :D

You know, it figures they'd break the like button right before I finally came up with something good. :lol: I'm such a dork that when I came up with this I thought Man, the people on Westeros.org are gonna be so pumped to see this! But then when I brought it up the first couple of times up nobody was pumped. :dunno: So I decided to be persistent, to the annoyance of some, I'd imagine. I knew eventually someone would see what I saw. And what I saw was a really cool metaphor by a genius of an author: GRRM. :bowdown:

[Addam of Hull]

That's some very good analysis, fantastic actually. Thank you! I've suggested this idea a few times, and the sum total of the responses I've received is less than what you put forth in one post, so I very much appreciate the thought you put into your answer.

A lot of what you said has crossed my mind, at least in general terms. However, your second paragraph contains some really clever observations that had not occurred to me. This last bit especially: Very nice. :bowdown:

I think it makes sense because ultimately, as a King, Jon needs a Queen. The most common candidates are generally Val and Dany, for different reasons. Val's usually thought of because of Stannis's offer, but from a political standpoint, she actually brings nothing to the table. Wildlings follow the man, not blood, so marrying Val doesn't get him anything that he wouldn't hypothetically already have. Dany's reasons are usually more mystical and relate back the HotU - and given that at least a portion of the logical connection between Jon, blue roses, and Lyanna originates there - it's hard to refute. Marrying Dany would probably solidify his claim over the IT and end most of the bloodshed in one fell swoop, so that's also an attractive option, but it isn't guaranteed. Margaery is actually one of the best candidates beyond that because of what an alliance between their houses would mean.

Hello, I'm still new to quoting so hopefully this works :)

What The Wolfwoods said here ^ has got me thinking about something I have been thinking of a lot lately. I do believe that the books have been asking the question (amoung other questions) who is better, more suitable, to rule. Is it someone born into it, or chosen by the Gods? Or is it someone who never thought that they would ever become king, but who cares and will do what they think is best for their people?

But what I guess I'm trying to say is that if the books do head down this path, and Jon does become a king, it won't be because he is a dragon, or whatever, but because he is what the people need to unite them. The general public of Westeros might never find out who is parents are, but they might not need to. I think if anyone does, it might be Jon, just to give him that extra push, or maybe only we find out. Who knows right now.

ETA= I accidently pressed send when I hadn't finished LOL

I'm not sure about the Tyrell/North alliance. Only because when I think of 'knights of summer' the Tyrells are the first that come to mind. They may not believe the threat of the Others at first, may think it is just some huge hoax or something, and I don't think Jon will have much patience for that. Though I'm happy to be proven wrong, I just can't see it yet :)

I think one of the most appropriate things about the potential of Jon as King is that it stems from a very natural desire of his father's bannermen to be ruled by a Stark. We know that the fact that Jon is/was LC has already reached Braavos, which is actually really strange when you think about it. Sure, the Wall is a wonder of the world, but why would the Braavosi care much about who's in charge of it? Regardless, there's no way the whole North doesn't know by now. Jon's elected at the same age their king was, which speaks well of his abilities - sure, Sam rigged the election, but nobody actually knows that. All of the Northern houses know that Jon's been elevated to having a military command in under a few years time, which certainly makes them intrigued because Robb was an extremely capable military mind. One of my favorite things about the GNC theory is that all throughout aDwD, we see Jon interacting with the same people he'll eventually rule. Alys Karstark, the tribesman.... and he does a splendid job with each of them. I really like the idea that they're scouting him out and trying to take the measure of the man.

The other thing that really strikes me about this whole situation - Jon being KitN and R+L - is that it creates a massive problem for Varys schemes. Varys has essentially taken the stance that the only way to ensure that they have a good king on the throne is to place his own candidate there, Aegon. I won't get in to everything, but that always strikes me as being incredibly, mmm, arrogant. He makes the point that Aegon sees his kingship as his duty and that he knows that he has to put his people first... which is exactly what Jon would do. More to the point, no matter how Aegon has been raised, he undoubtedly sees his leadership as a right. It's the same thing with Daenerys. Varys misses the fact that truly great leaders aren't leaders because of their birth or education, they simply become that thanks to who they are.

WRT to the "knights of summer", that's definitely the biggest issue with a Tyrell-Stark alliance. House Tyrell is definitely a Southron house, but that's not inherently a bad thing and I think Jon could recognize that. He has little patience for fools, but I've never really gotten any hints that the Tyrells are fools at all. I think another potential issue that stands in the way is the fact that the North wants to be independent from the South. They could stomach being one nation if it was a Northman ruling, which it would be, but I do think the tendency would be to try and convince Jon to marry within their lands - so the daughter of someone from the North and the Riverlands.

[Budj]

snip

I wanted to say I totally agree with the parallel of Jon acting like a King in the North as LC of the NW while actually being the King in the North without realizing it. Having the contents of Robb's will being confirmed makes his political interactions at the wall very interesting. While his decisions are questionable for a LC they are very sound political actions as King in the North.

[Addam of Hull]

I wanted to say I totally agree with the parallel of Jon acting like a King in the North as LC of the NW while actually being the King in the North without realizing it. Having the contents of Robb's will being confirmed makes his political interactions at the wall very interesting. While his decisions are questionable for a LC they are very sound political actions as King in the North.

Jon's actions as LC are interesting because he runs up against the limits of what he's supposed to be allowed to do fairly early on. Technically, the LC is supposed to remain neutral and make military decisions for the Wall, which for thousands and thousands of years have worked wonderfully. The problem is that through the negligence of the realm as a whole, the Watch is on its last legs. Jon knows that its his duty to serve the realm and prepare the Watch for what's coming... but to do that, he's put into a position where the only way to make it happen is to break the traditions and try to prepare the Watch at the same time. He doesn't balk at that, though, because he understands that it's what has to be done.

That's not to say that his personal desires don't come in to the equation. They do. Jon's entire arc throughout aSoIaF has inherently been about him sacrificing himself and his desires for the good of others. This is true from the first time we see him - he points out his own bastardy to make the count come out correctly so his cousins can get direwolves - through the present. In fact, aGot, aCoK, and aSoS all end with him sacrificing his desires for the sake of the realm. aDwD breaks this. Jon comes to understand that he can't keep making these sacrifices because they're making him miserable. At the end of aGoT, Jon decides to not help his family. That's the right decision then, but with Robb dead and his family scattered, his regret is palpable in later books. Jon's decision to march on Winterfell is for the good of the Watch, but it's also him understanding that he can't keep making these sacrifices. I've seen allegations that he was depressed through aDwD and I think that's absolutely correct. Aemon's words to him during aGoT ring true here: he has to make a decision he can live with the rest of his days and I think Jon knows that he'd end up hating himself if he didn't march on Ramsay before he could get Arya back.

[A Song of Tyrion's member]

So we're having a blizzard where I live and I woke up to 2 feet of snow and a new R+L=J thread already 3 pages in. I have my work cut out for me today :)

I think GRRM threw the fisherman's daughter in as an in-story red herring. In other words, he's not trying to distract us but rather to show why it isn't more obvious to the people in-story where Jon came from.

Also because I can't multi quote from my phone: JS- I love the blue rose symbolism. I've seen you bring it up on a couple of threads and it's one of those that really makes me miss the like button :)

The firsherman's daughter could be a red-herring-esq type of deal. When GRRM wrote aGoT he originally planned on only writing three books. If you consider aSoIaF as a trilogy it would make sense that he would want to make Jon's parentage known with only two books left. Hence Ned's recurring thought's of Lyanna. However, as the story really started to grow from 3 books to 5 books to 7 (or more), GRRM probably threw in some red-herrings in order to steer us away from thinking R+L=J was axiomatic (although it would be extremely disappointing if Jon wasn't a Targ at this point, considering all the evidence to the contrary).

[J. Stargaryen]

I think it makes sense because ultimately, as a King, Jon needs a Queen. The most common candidates are generally Val and Dany, for different reasons. Val's usually thought of because of Stannis's offer, but from a political standpoint, she actually brings nothing to the table. Wildlings follow the man, not blood, so marrying Val doesn't get him anything that he wouldn't hypothetically already have. Dany's reasons are usually more mystical and relate back the HotU - and given that at least a portion of the logical connection between Jon, blue roses, and Lyanna originates there - it's hard to refute. Marrying Dany would probably solidify his claim over the IT and end most of the bloodshed in one fell swoop, so that's also an attractive option, but it isn't guaranteed. Margaery is actually one of the best candidates beyond that because of what an alliance between their houses would mean.

<snip>

I definitely agree that Jon and Dany are on a collision course of some kind; friend or foe I cannot say with certainty. If they marry, they will fly the three-headed dragon, red on black, I think. I could go for that. However, I see Jon's future sigil as the blue winter rose, and I'll tell you why: in this story your sigil is your metaphor and your metaphor is your sigil. Jon's metaphor is the aforementioned blue winter rose. To me, this means that it should also be his sigil.

---

A little bit of blue winter rose background: or how I came up with Jon + Margaery.

- So here is the original post where I predict that Jon will take the BWR as his sigil:

The other day a vision popped into my head of King Jon Snow/Targaryen/whatever (well, Kit Harrington...) dressed in black, wearing a garland of blue winter roses as his crown. Now, I don't think that's how it will turn out; i.e., I think he would wear a proper crown. However, I do think there is a very good chance that he will take the blue winter rose as his sigil, king or not. Maybe he will just be a lord, maybe hand to King Stannis. He needn't be king to have a sigil after all. I was thinking blue on black, but I'm not certain about the background color.

- A couple of days later I mentioned the blue winter rose sigil idea in v35 of this thread, and Old-Growth pointed out to me that Jon's blue rose could meet House Tyrell's golden rose in a WotR-like showdown. Cue the tingling spidey senses. I let it sit for a while, not really coming up with anything.

- Almost exactly a month later Lady of Whisperers suggested that the Tyrells would support Jon in a hypothetical King Robert vs. Targaryen war in v37 of this thread, and it just sort of hit me. Like, wow, that kind of makes sense - Jon and Margaery. Especially combined with Old-Growth's WotR idea, except in a make love, not war kind of way. So I went ahead and posted the first version of the theory.

- A while later I was reading up on the WotR and I came across the fact that Henry Tudor sort of retconned the Red Rose of Lancaster into existence following the decisive WotR battle. This was a really interesting find for me, because it historically mirrored what I had been predicting for Jon Snow with the blue winter rose. From my point of view my theory had correctly predicted - well, retro-predicted, if you will - something that happened in history.

I mean if anybody is meant to be the Henry Tudor character - aka, the winner of ASoIaF's version of the WotR; aka, the game of thrones - it ought to be our hero, and that's likely to be Jon Snow, if you ask me. So, to find out that his possible (probable?) historical counterpart had taken up a rose as a symbol shortly before becoming king was, as I said, really interesting. I wonder if others might find it just as interesting now that I've laid it out like this. At the very least, you can all see why I've been so blue rose-centric lately regarding Jon's destiny. It just might be the key.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Jon won't use a blue rose as his sigil. A white dire wolf is his sigil.

[J. Stargaryen]

Jon won't use a blue rose as his sigil. A white dire wolf is his sigil.

I stand corrected. :rolleyes:

[Tonji Blackfyre]

Hello, long time lurker, finally decided to make an account and post because I finished the book… and because after 3 days of on/off reading, I finally caught up to all the 40 R+L=J threads [well, until you guys made the 41^st this morning xD ]. Anyways, I love this, and completely agree with R+L=J, well, at least I hope it’s true. It’s the only thing that makes sense… and it feels… poetically right – especially if it all ends up with J. Stargaryen’s theory of the Blue Roses sigil or at least the symbolism; it seems fitting.

[J. Stargaryen]

Hello, long time lurker, finally decided to make an account and post because I finished the book… and because after 3 days of on/off reading, I finally caught up to all the 40 R+L=J threads [well, until you guys made the 41^st this morning xD ]. Anyways, I love this, and completely agree with R+L=J, well, at least I hope it’s true. It’s the only thing that makes sense… and it feels… poetically right – especially if it all ends up with J. Stargaryen’s theory of the Blue Roses sigil or at least the symbolism; it seems fitting.

Welcome to the forums and thank you! I'm glad you liked it.