Robb stark warg?

[MannyAntony]

Quick Question does Robb ever show warging abilities?

[Old Man Aegon]

We don't get a POV so we dont know but Martin said that all the current Stark children were wargs (Correct me if wrong)

[Pliskin]

And it's confirmed in the TV Show.

[Toccs]

There's GRRM's confirmation that all the Stark children are wargs but in the text itself there are several hints to Robb's wolf dreams.

- The secret goat trail that Grey Wind finds that is able to lead Robb's army around the Golden Tooth, a fortress that has held back armies for centuries. How exactly did Robb know about the path that Grey Wind found?

- There is also the conversation in which Catelyn does the Westerosi thing of telling Robb how he should behave as the wolf would and Robb rather angrily responds "I am not a wolf.", on it's own it could be nothing but it is almost identical to the way that Jon thinks when he initially rejects his wolf dreams and that part of him that is in his wolf.

- There is also Robb's last words being "Grey Wind" which again is identical to Jon's last words being "Ghost" when his stabbed.

By looking at those 3 examples in context with Arya, Jon and Bran's known experiences with wolf dreams and warging proper, I think it is enough evidence to conclude that Robb was having wolf dreams and was aware and accepting of what was happening at least as much as Jon is.

[The Great Cornholio!]

It seems to me that all the Stark children are Wargs, which leave me to wonder about Jon. He's definitely a Stark. Indeed he seems more Stark than the others.

[Nelapsi]

- There is also Robb's last words being "Grey Wind" which again is identical to Jon's last words being "Ghost" when his stabbed.

This made me think one of the saddest thoughts I've had about ASOIAF : if Robb was a warg, and warged Grey Wind, he actually had to die twice in a row, unless the wolf had died before Robb.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

This made me think one of the saddest thoughts I've had about ASOIAF : if Robb was a warg, and warged Grey Wind, he actually had to die twice in a row, unless the wolf had died before Robb.

I had that same thought after reading this thread earlier... Now I'm sad... :crying:

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

He didn't get a chance to have his powers fully manifest, he also resisted the fact that he was a part of the wolf and the wolf was part of him.

and yeah it was sad that Grey Wind didn't get away but I suppose that Robb wouldn't have abandon his men. Hopefully Grey Wind's sister can avenge him.

[~Shiera Seastar~]

He didn't get a chance to have his powers fully manifest, he also resisted the fact that he was a part of the wolf and the wolf was part of him.

Maybe if he had his own POV, we would know how his warging ability was manifested. :(

Hopefully Grey Wind's sister can avenge him.

Correct me if I'm wrong: Was Nymeria eat only the flesh of men?

And she's pretty close to the Twins, if you know what I'm sayin'.

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

Maybe if he had his own POV, we would know how his warging ability was manifested. :(

Correct me if I'm wrong: Was Nymeria eat only the flesh of men?

And she's pretty close to the Twins, if you know what I'm sayin'.

True. We only assume that Robb didn't really grow as a warg because we don't see him have a connection with another animal and we don't see how powerful his connection with Grey Wind was.

You're not wrong.

[Longspear Ryk]

I always thought he was just as strong as jon when it came to warging...

[DrownedSnow]

Poor Sansa.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

I always thought he was just as strong as jon when it came to warging...

I wanna say that all the Stark children have the same potential, but Jon and Rob were older and rejected the notion of magic, or didn't want to be branded as a warg. I never really understood Jon's reluctance to embrace it, esp in his time amongst the wildlings where the ability is somewhat respected, perhaps even revered. I thought for sure part of the reason his arc put him w/ the wildlings was to get some special training from varamyr or someone like Borroq. It would have been cool if he could overcome and tame Orrell's eagle, with Orell inside, to show how powerful whe was becoming... but of course GRRM surprises me, yet again.

[MannyAntony]

Does GRRM say if it was grey winds head that was put on robb or was it an ordinary wolf head i would assume grey wwinds head would be to big to put on him

[lady m]

Does GRRM say if it was grey winds head that was put on robb or was it an ordinary wolf head i would assume grey wwinds head would be to big to put on him

It's Grey Wind. They chop off both their heads and then sew Grey Wind on Robb's body.

[MannyAntony]

Well thats disappointing

[MannyAntony]

Well that is disappointing

[The GreatRon]

It's Grey Wind. They chop off both their heads and then sew Grey Wind on Robb's body.

yeah but thats according to the Freys.....who are liars and wouldn't admit it if Grey Wind did escape. There were a lot of wolves around the Twins during the RW.

The only real proof is that Bran cannot sense Grey Wind anymore.

[Longspear Ryk]

I wanna say that all the Stark children have the same potential, but Jon and Rob were older and rejected the notion of magic, or didn't want to be branded as a warg. I never really understood Jon's reluctance to embrace it, esp in his time amongst the wildlings where the ability is somewhat respected, perhaps even revered. I thought for sure part of the reason his arc put him w/ the wildlings was to get some special training from varamyr or someone like Borroq. It would have been cool if he could overcome and tame Orrell's eagle, with Orell inside, to show how powerful whe was becoming... but of course GRRM surprises me, yet again.

I know in the show orell was casted for this season so they might go tht route for the show

[evita mgfs]

ROBB AND GREY WIND: WARG CONNECTION?

AGOT Bran V Book 1, Chapter 38

"Still . . . the honor of the north is in my hands now. When our lord father took his leave of us, he told me to be strong for you and for Rickon. I'm almost a man grown, Bran."

I have been taxing my mind about this theory wherein Martin MAY BE suggesting through dialogue, action, and reaction that Robb Stark and Grey Wind are bonding. Robb may even be deriving his inner and outer strength from his connection to his direwolf. [i am merely kicking this around – I am not sure if I have even convinced myself].

• DIALOGUE
  

We know through Bran’s POV’s the progression of having wolf dreams and then eventually opening the third eye to “consciously” warg a beast other than through dreams. Martin details Bran’s heightened sensory awareness in his wolf dreams where Bran smells the earth and tastes the blood through Summer. I “speculate” that maybe Robb is already “informed” of the bond between direwolf and owner, evident in the following passage:

“Bran looked around for the direwolves. Both had vanished into the wood. "Did you hear Summer howling last night?"

"Grey Wind was restless too," Robb said. His auburn hair had grown shaggy and unkempt, and a reddish stubble covered his jaw, making him look older than his fifteen years. "Sometimes I think they know things . . . sense things . . . " Robb sighed. "I never know how much to tell you, Bran. I wish you were older."

"I'm eight now!" Bran said. "Eight isn't so much younger than fifteen, and I'm the heir to Winterfell, after you."

"So you are." Robb sounded sad, and even a little scared. "Bran, I need to tell you something. There was a bird last night. From King's Landing. Maester Luwin woke me."

• Bran and Robb agree that the direwolves have been “restless” for they have been howling through the night. However, Robb is the one who offers a “reason” for the howling: Robb says “restless”. If Grey Wind and Robb mirror one another, then might Robb feel “restless” as well? Robb is carrying the honor of the north on his shoulders, so he may feel “restless” as he bides his time, waiting for when he will need to act!
  
• Martin describes Robb’s “grooming” as lacking; however his “shaggy” hair and the “unkempt”, “reddish stubble” covering his jaw suggests a “wolfish” appearance. I propose that Robb may take on the “appearance” of his wolf when Martin attends to discussing the young lord’s hair and beard.
  
• Bran thinks Robb’s “grunge” look makes him look older than his fifteen years.
  
• Most importantly in this passage is Robb’s next line, which is in context to Bran and Robb discussing their direwolves’ restless behavior: "Sometimes I think they know things . . . sense things . . . " Robb sighed.
  
• Robb acknowledges the direwolves’ perception, mentioning that they “sense” things through their animal instincts. We have seen Summer alerting Bran to danger when he decides to go climbing. Summer and the other direwolves “sang” throughout Bran’s coma, and Maester Luwin wanted the window kept open so that Bran could hear his wolf and the others: the direwolf was enabling Bran’s heart to beat stronger. Robb witnesses this connection between Bran and his wolf. It stands to reason that Robb is also experiencing connections of himself and Grey Wind.
  
• With Ghost at his side, Jon Snow has the strength to challenge Ser Alliser Thorne. He even has the strength to “face down” Catelyn when he says farewell to Bran. Likewise, Robb may be experiencing similar “connections” with his wolf Grey Wind.
  
• We have speculated that the “wolf connection” may be brought on by especial challenges facing the Stark children. Jon’s relationship with Ghost grows deeper when they are at the Wall together and Ghost is Jon’s only friend and ally. Jon’s loneliness and feelings of alienation assist to build the framework of Jon and Ghost’s subsequent warg connection. Likewise, Robb has had power thrust upon him. He must fill his father’s shoes as lord of Winterfell, and he must also attend to the needs of his crippled brother and baby brother run wild, Rickon. I can see Robb finding comfort in Grey Wind, even crying into his grey fur the way Jon cries into Ghost’s white fur.
  
• "I never know how much to tell you, Bran. I wish you were older."
  
• When Robb says this, in context with the discussion of the wolves, “I never know how much to tell you, Bran” – I speculate that maybe Robb is referring to “something” about his relationship with Grey Wind. He seems to want to share “something” with Bran about the wolves and the way the wolves “know things”.
  
• Robb’s words suggest that he misses Jon’s companionship as well, especially when he qualifies his statement with “I wish you were older” JUST LIKE JON. Yes, I think Robb is missing Jon’s confidences, opinions, and advisements. Theon Greyjoy is a poor substitute as “brother” to Robb. I must say Catelyn does Robb a grave injustice when she sends Jon to the Wall. Had Jon been present to help Robb deal with the burdens thrust upon him, the outcome may have been a little different.
  
• Now, Robb’s statement can also relate to the news Robb discloses to Bran concerning the raven from King’s Landing the night before.
  

• ACTIONS
  

In the following actions performed by Robb, Martin “maybe” revealing that a pre-warging connection is occurring between Robb and Grey Wind, demonstrated by Robb’s uncanny physical strength; if Bran can grow “stronger” physically through his connection to Summer, then maybe Robb is gathering strength through Grey Wind that allows him to lift an elk unaided and hoist the corpse over his gelding’s back.

Robb leaves Bran alone to check out the kill that the direwolves have made.

Robb says specifically to Bran that he will locate the direwolves “faster by myself”, which indicates to me that Robb is not in the company of others when he locates the direwolves and their kill: "I'll find them faster by myself." Robb spurred his gelding and vanished into the trees.

Robb returns to find Bran surrounded by two women and four men who are threatening him, demanding that Bran hand over his silver pin.

"Put down your steel now, and I promise you shall have a quick and painless death," Robb called out.

Bran looked up in desperate hope, and there he was. The strength of the words were undercut by the way his voice cracked with strain. He was mounted, the bloody carcass of an elk slung across the back of his horse, his sword in a gloved hand.

Truthfully, I do not think Robb is gone any longer than fifteen minutes. When he returns, Robb has an elk slung across his gelding; obviously the direwolves took down the elk. Here are Martin’s words:

"He was mounted, the bloody carcass of an elk slung across the back of his horse, his sword in a gloved hand."

Robb is fifteen, and nowhere has Martin indicated that Robb has the superhuman strength of a Jean Valjean. How does Robb hoist a dead body of a rather large animal on the back of his gelding with no assistance? Martin does not indicate that the elk is a calf, and I am assuming it has a rack that indicates it is an elk as opposed to a deer, stag, or buck. Even yearlings are a good size – not easily lifted up by one person to sling over a horse.

The Wiki says the following regarding size and weight of an average cow and bull: “Elk cows average 225 to 241 kg (500 to 530 lb), stand 1.3 m (4.3 ft) at the shoulder, and are 2.1 m (6.9 ft) from nose to tail. Bulls are some 40% larger than cows at maturity, weighing an average of 320 to 331 kg (710 to 730 lb), standing 1.5 m (4.9 ft) at the shoulder and averaging 2.45 m (8.0 ft) in length.^{[19][20] . . .} The smallest bodied race is the Tule elk (C. c. nannodes), which weighs from 170 to 250 kg (370 to 550 lb) in both sexes.”^{[22] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elk}

So, maybe Martin is “hinting” at a pre-warg bond forming between Robb and Grey Wind through Robb’s excessive strength?

Not only would lifting a dead elk be difficult, but horses do not easily accept the dead body of an animal on their backs unless it is quartered and packaged, or so my husband the great hunter tells me. He says the horse may be well trained, but that horses as a rule can give a rider some difficulty, like "not" standing still while a dead animal is positioned so that it will not slide off?

I also do not think Robb had time to gut and bleed out the elk, unless the direwolves only left "part" of an elk, and ate the rest????

Lastly, Grey Wind’s performance during the battle is impressive; he takes down more of the offenders than any other combatant. Likewise, Robb demonstrates his prowess as a warrior, and he and Grey Wind fight side by side, joined by a common cause. Robb’s aggressiveness during the fight mirrors Grey Wind’s aggressiveness.

Thus, through Robb’s actions, Martin may be suggesting that Robb and his direwolf are uniting symbolically if not literally, with Robb drawing from Grey Wind’s strength, his aggressiveness, and his “wolf” spirit.

• REACTION
  

The last piece of evidence that may point to the force that is the direwolves, or the force that sent the direwolves, the old gods with their instruments, is the LACK of REACTION in the horses Robb and Bran are mounted upon. When horses smell the blood, they panic, rear, and shy away – even RUN AWAY, with or without their riders.

Here is how Ned’s horse reacts to the blood:

“The horse moved closer, smelled the rank scent of blood, and galloped away” (384).

Robb’s gelding “allows” him to place the bloody carcass of a good-sized elk upon his back without giving his rider any grief. Thus, maybe through the direwolves and through the forces that are the old gods, the horses are beings “calmed” so that they do not panic and bolt.

Also, even though Martin describes the battle scene as a carnage: “The sixth man ran from the carnage . . . but not far.” – Bran and Robb’s horses remain unaffected by the blood and death around them. The elk stays tied to Robb’s gelding all through the bloody fight that even enters the rushing waters.

Therefore, in Bran’s fifth POV, Martin may reveal that Robb and Grey Wind are forming a bond that precedes the “wolf dreams” associated with the first warging experiences. Just as Summer’s link with Bran assists in healing Bran, somehow making his heart beat stronger, maybe Grey Wind’s bond to Robb is endowing him with physical strength, even mental strength, for Robb bravely confronts the cutthroats who dare to threaten his little brother.

Robb and Bran’s dialogue may suggest that Robb wants to confide “something” in Bran if only he were older. This “unspoken” something may be about the bond that Robb senses is forming between him and his wolf. Robb already states that the wolves “sense” things, and their howling through the night and their restlessness does correspond to the unpleasant situations for Starks at the Wall, at the Eyrie, and in King’s Landing. The direwolves can obviously sense, even from distances, the dangers that threaten the Stark pack.

AN: I presented the “elk” theory to the Heresy Thread and Small Questions. In Small Questions, a poster called the conundrum about the elk “sloppy writing”. On the other hand, Black Crow suggests that “others” not deemed important enough to mention follow along the royal party to assist with such things as “elk” take-downs by direwolves or by Theon, who was planning on getting a deer. [ironically, the direwolves get the “deer”!]

I am not sure about either. Martin does go to great lengths to name all the individuals participating in the outing, and the passage follows:

“They passed beneath the gatehouse, over the drawbridge, through the outer walls. Summer and Grey Wind came loping beside them, sniffing at the wind. Close behind came Theon Greyjoy, with his longbow and a quiver of broadheads; he had a mind to take a deer, he had told them. He was followed by four guardsmen in mailed shirts and coifs, and Joseth, a stick-thin stableman whom Robb had named master of horse while Hullen was away. Maester Luwin brought up the rear, riding on a donkey. Bran would have liked it better if he and Robb had gone off alone, just the two of them, but Hal Mollen would not hear of it, and Maester Luwin backed him. If Bran fell off his horse or injured himself, the maester was determined to be with him.”

• With Martin’s attention to detail, why wouldn’t he name everyone in the party, or give a general count of the party without the catalogue of names?