The Bakker and Women Thread Returns

[Shryke]

I think it fair criticism to point out that one character in particular requires repeated, increasingly vast suspensions of disbelief. Especially when she stands out in the narrative for this specific reason.

What "repeated, increasingly vast suspensions of disbelief"?

So far we've got "she can get pregnant past her 30s, it's totally unlikely".

This whole thing is the tiniest of ant-hills that some of you seem to think is a mountain.

[Kalbear]

\Man, you're just being a bit nitpicky. Every story ever conceived has aspects of realism mixed with unrealistic components--it's absolutely inherent to storytelling and unavoidable. Can you give me a single story, in any medium, that does not have moments that are unbelievable or unlikely or require suspension of disbelief? If something as insignificant as Esmenet having a lot of kids bothers you, then why even bother reading anything?

Similarly, you're complaining about someone being nitpicky on the internet. Why do you bother going on the internet? That's what the internet is filled with.

For me, Esmenet having multiple pregnancies with apparently someone who is evolved to being not quite human as late as 45 years old broke my suspension of disbelief for this setting. In other settings I think it would be fine; I wouldn't bat an eye about it in, say, a Pratchett novel. But because this series grounds itself in gritty realism and pointing out the real things and not just glossing them over, it bugs me more. It may not bug you; you may have never thought about it once. Bakker may never have thought about it either. If you don't have a problem with it, awesome. Hopefully you can at least understand the massive improbability of it happening.

So far we've got "she can get pregnant past her 30s, it's totally unlikely".

45 isn't 'past her 30s'. Obstetricians in the US could not point to a single woman who had successfully gotten pregnant at 45 or later using her own eggs. Not once. And that's using modern medicine, nutrition, etc.

It's not that big of a deal. If you had simply said 'yep, that was pretty unreal' and moved on no one would be bringing up how colossally unlikely it actually is for a woman in medieval periods to have 5 children from 33 to 45 simply because it's colossally unlikely to happen now. It's odd given that there are no other advances in medicine for, say, the Great Ordeal that we see; plague caused primarily by dirty waterborne illnesses still kicks their ass, for instance. You'd think that would also be something of a priority, but nah. But since y'all keep harping about how it's just kinda sorta lucky and not on the order of one of the most fantastical events in realistic history, well, others keep harping back.

[Larry of the Lawn]

If we all just jumped on the black semen bandwagon this discussion would be moot.

[Shryke]

Similarly, you're complaining about someone being nitpicky on the internet. Why do you bother going on the internet? That's what the internet is filled with.

For me, Esmenet having multiple pregnancies with apparently someone who is evolved to being not quite human as late as 45 years old broke my suspension of disbelief for this setting. In other settings I think it would be fine; I wouldn't bat an eye about it in, say, a Pratchett novel. But because this series grounds itself in gritty realism and pointing out the real things and not just glossing them over, it bugs me more. It may not bug you; you may have never thought about it once. Bakker may never have thought about it either. If you don't have a problem with it, awesome. Hopefully you can at least understand the massive improbability of it happening.

I can understand if it, like, bugs you. But it's still a nitpick imo. Which is why I don't get how Feint thinks it's a contrivance that helps to ruin Esmenet's character.

45 isn't 'past her 30s'.

Actually it is Kalbear. So is like 31-32 when she was pregnant with her first kid during the first series, which is why I made it a range.

It's not that big of a deal. If you had simply said 'yep, that was pretty unreal' and moved on no one would be bringing up how colossally unlikely it actually is for a woman in medieval periods to have 5 children from 33 to 45 simply because it's colossally unlikely to happen now. It's odd given that there are no other advances in medicine for, say, the Great Ordeal that we see; plague caused primarily by dirty waterborne illnesses still kicks their ass, for instance. You'd think that would also be something of a priority, but nah. But since y'all keep harping about how it's just kinda sorta lucky and not on the order of one of the most fantastical events in realistic history, well, others keep harping back.

I brought it up only because Feint kept bringing it up as some sort of character breaking contrivance in his opinion. I think that's fucking ridiculous. It's unlikely, certainly, but so what? All narrative art is full of that shit. It doesn't detract from the overall piece or the character in question.

[Kalbear]

Well, you can also say that having children past birth is not that implausible; that would be misleading when trying to play off a girl getting pregnant at age 3.

. It is a range, yes - but over 30 is not remotely the same as 45 when talking about probabilities of successful natural pregnancies. You do get that, right? That it isn't just some base percentage?

[Sci-2]

I think Faint's point is he found it unusual that Esmi throws away her contraceptive shell while on the march. IMO this makes sense as wearing such an item is considered a sin and she's hooking up with a Prophet.

Of course, it does make Esmi's character serve as the wedge between Akka and Kellhus - which means her primary purpose is to serve the arcs of the male characters. I do get this criticism, because Esmi doesn't really do much to advance the story in the first books.

An arc about Esmi actually doing work as Kellhus's Master of Spies would have helped here.

[Shryke]

Well, you can also say that having children past birth is not that implausible; that would be misleading when trying to play off a girl getting pregnant at age 3.

. It is a range, yes - but over 30 is not remotely the same as 45 when talking about probabilities of successful natural pregnancies. You do get that, right? That it isn't just some base percentage?

I get that you still seem to not understand that I was trying to encompass all the children she had had with Kellhus, so starting with the first one just past the age of 30, hence the age range I used.

Especially since you yourself questioned the likelihood of ANY of those children just on the last page. You even used the exact same range I did.

So frankly, I can't figure out WTF your problem suddenly is.

[Shryke]

I think Faint's point is he found it unusual that Esmi throws away her contraceptive shell while on the march. IMO this makes sense as wearing such an item is considered a sin and she's hooking up with a Prophet.

Is that why she does it? I don't remember the specific part/page anymore.

Of course, it does make Esmi's character serve as the wedge between Akka and Kellhus - which means her primary purpose is to serve the arcs of the male characters. I do get this criticism, because Esmi doesn't really do much to advance the story in the first books.

An arc about Esmi actually doing work as Kellhus's Master of Spies would have helped here.

I think that's selling Esmi short. She serves a narrative purpose in Kellhus' and Achamian's story, but she's a well rounded character in her own right with her own arc.

For the second series I think, given what we've seen so far, she'll have some larger purpose in TAE series that, perhaps, will help better explain her prominence in PoN to some.

[Kalbear]

I get that you still seem to not understand that I was trying to encompass all the children she had had with Kellhus, so starting with the first one just past the age of 30, hence the age range I used.

Especially since you yourself questioned the likelihood of ANY of those children just on the last page. You even used the exact same range I did.

So frankly, I can't figure out WTF your problem suddenly is.

it became more and more implausible. 45 is pretty much a statistical impossibility, but the others are pretty unlikely - not without defects and other issues. It's all just a big chunk of implausibility together - having 6 kids that late in life, having them all be successful and no miscarriages, her being a prostitute without any stds, no complications with any of the pregnancies, no sickness or altering of her own body, and all fathered by a person who apparently can't truly breed with most normal humans without absurd birth defects.

But yes, I got bugged when you attempted to gloss over having a child at 45 with your own eggs in a medieval setting as being just another one after 30".

[Sci-2]

but she's a well rounded character in her own right with her own arc.

Oh, I think the character is overall well done and while I have issues with her depiction at times I do think she represents a genuine contribution of a female character to the genre. Her internal journey in the first trilogy is good.

But in five books it doesn't seem like she contributes that much to the furtherance of the narrative. She calls upon her son to read Maitha's face, and she hires the dunyain killing assassin are the two I can think of.

As master of spies she does a few sentences of work, as Empress she interprets a poem told at court.

I know she raised a few half-Dunyain's but would be nice to know more about how she kept her family somewhat whole, how she might have had a positive influence on Sammi, Theli, heck even Serwa.

The latter two would be interesting characters to examine in relationship to Esmi.