[TWoW Spoilers] Barristan

[Satoris T Born]

Remember these are like the first 100 pages or so of 1000++ page book full of genius. Don't let it get you down.

Agreed- the next two books might be jam packed with action. Feast and Dance were like ACt 3 Scene 1- just setting the stage for the final act, man....

Besides, with all the brooding, reflecting, and planning the characters do in Feast/Dance, how can the next two books possibly feature more of the same? I wager this next book will be all battles and reckonings. After how the two books ended, you can't NOT have retaliations from every faction. Almost all of which know of each other now.

[NotSoSilentSister]

I do like this theory because I can't imagine why Euron would give Vic the horn if he didn't have a plan, but I haven't seen anyone reconcile the problem of the Ironborn still being active in the Reach area and them being the way they are (every captain is a king on his own boat) following Eurons orders if they haven't seen him in over a month.

My theory is that Euron might still have an ace up his sleeve (*cough* krakens *cough*) , that he hasn't shown Vici, but might well have shown the other captains. That might have awed them into submission.

[HannibalStark]

I don't see why scenario 1 is so unlikely. This should be the decisive battle between Dany and the slavers. If she wins her opposition is likely broken.

Wasn't one of the reasons she didn't initially rush out and attack the yunkish that she feared what the harpy faction would do while her forces were busy outside the city? It was said that 5000 unsullied came out of the gates, leaving what, a little less than 3k inside maintaining order? I can see the harpies trying to seize the moment, revealing themselves, and losing. Yunkish broken, harpies overthrown for good, volantenes revolting, slavers lose. It seems kind of rosy but it's certainly plausible.

I see Dany as a historical arsonist type of character, like genghis khan or napolean. In real life these people tended to die soon after disrupting everything, leaving a permanently changed political landscape. Here I could just see Dany telling the mereenese shed done enough, they'd have to figure the rest out for themselves. It wouldn't be the same as with astapor if this is truly a decisive battle and if the sons of the harpy are exposed and eliminated. And she would probably take some people with her. She'd be leaving slavers bay completely overturned, having inspired the revolt that seemed to be imminent in volantis, however that turns out.

I can see a lot of scenarios playing out, but I wouldn't call mereen being destroyed the most likely. I think its far more likely we get a middle of the road outcome that's decisive but somewhat unsatisfying.

I agree about the discrepancy regarding the missing 3k pointy hats possibly (hopefully) means they are being kept inside (but hidden) to whup some Harpy ass when they "try" to take advantage of the seemingly vulnerable situation ...hopefully that is part of the plan and both threats inside and out can be dealt with.

But unless I am missing something, Dany still appears to not be around so this is all being done without her, right?

I'm done trying to defend Victarion in this thread, but I do like the comments Tam Tam made at the top of page 16 (nicely put Ser..I would have liked to have "liked" it but it seems that option sadly is now missing. (can we ever bring this back?)

There are very interesting issues brought up that I cam dying to be able to get my grubby little hands on tWOW in its entirety that have my brain spinning:

1) Will Selmy survive this battle? It would be very satisfying and a nice eff you to Cersei and the Lannisters to see Selmy as the Commander of the Queensguard marching into Kingslanding

2) Is smashing both the enemies inside (the Harpy's sons) AND at the gate both being handled and accounted for? (I really, really, really hope so)

3) The whole Pale Mare issue with the sickness and the flying corpses reaching everywhere but the North part of Mereen and the fact that he is riding his Khalessi's horse into battle (a no-no BTW, right?)

a) is this considered a betrayal?

4) Will Dany arrive during or after this battle? ....and with a huge freaking hoard of new Dothraki screamers at her back? We have to assume she still hasn't arrived yet, right?

5) I can't wait to see what role the two dragons will play, if any? Anyone think they enter into Selmy's plan?

6) From the comment is shows Tyrion is unhappy, (I am assuming because he has probably laid a plan that will be successful but will not get the credit (again)

7) Can't wait to see what Victarion will end up actually doing at the end of the day. (as I have said, I think he is smarter than many give him credit for)

---please Mr. George, please write like the wind Ser, write like the wind!.

Edited February 27, 2013 by HannibalStark

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I agree about the discrepancy regarding the missing 3k pointy hats possibly (hopefully) means they are being kept inside (but hidden) to whup some Harpy ass when they "try" to take advantage of the seemingly vulnerable situation ...hopefully that is part of the plan and both threats inside and out can be dealt with.

But unless I am missing something, Dany still appears to not be around so this is all being done without her, right?

I'm done trying to defend Victarion in this thread, but I do like the comments Tam Tam made at the top of page 16 (nicely put Ser..I would have liked to have "liked" it but it seems that option sadly is now missing. (can we ever bring this back?)

There are very interesting issues brought up that I cam dying to be able to get my grubby little hands on tWOW in its entirety that have my brain spinning:

1) Will Selmy survive this battle? It would be very satisfying and a nice eff you to Cersei and the Lannisters to see Selmy as the Commander of the Queensguard marching into Kingslanding

2) Is smashing both the enemies inside (the Harpy's sons) AND at the gate both being handled and accounted for? (I really, really, really hope so)

3) The whole Pale Mare issue with the sickness and the flying corpses reaching everywhere but the North part of Mereen and the fact that he is riding his Khalessi's horse into battle (a no-no BTW, right?)

a) is this considered a betrayal?

4) Will Dany arrive during or after this battle? ....and with a huge freaking hoard of new Dothraki screamers at her back? We have to assume she still hasn't arrived yet, right?

5) I can't wait to see what role the two dragons will play, if any? Anyone think they enter into Selmy's plan?

6) From the comment is shows Tyrion is unhappy, (I am assuming because he has probably laid a plan that will be successful but will not get the credit (again)

7) Can't wait to see what Victarion will end up actually doing at the end of the day. (as I have said, I think he is smarter than many give him credit for)

---please Mr. George, please write like the wind Ser, write like the wind!.

After reading some of ASOS when Brown Ben Plumm is first helping Dany break into Mereen and Viserion jumps on him and likes him in her Pavilion, then how in DwD BBP is with Tyrion and trying to decide how to defect back to Dany's team, and in the new sample Tyrion Chapter, BBP is still wanting to go back to Dany.

BBP tells Dany in ASOS that he has some targaryen blood in his family from way back. I sort of feel like the way he will get back in her good graces will be to somehow find Viserion and mount him and fly him into this battle supporting Dany. It not like the Dragons are the things in Avatar where they can 'only have 1 rider in the whole life'. So who is to say only 1 person will ride each dragon? And a little bit of targaryen blood is all someone needs to ride a dragon right? I just fee like why would GRRM have put all that stuff in about BBP bonding with Viserion if nothing was going to come of it??

I feel like I am right about this. When i first thought of it, I couldn't wait to get on and see what everyone else thinks??? :dunno:

[armidil0]

I think Tyrion is unhappy becasue he got stuck in hte middle of a fight.

After reading some of ASOS when Brown Ben Plumm is first helping Dany break into Mereen and Viserion jumps on him and likes him in her Pavilion, then how in DwD BBP is with Tyrion and trying to decide how to defect back to Dany's team, and in the new sample Tyrion Chapter, BBP is still wanting to go back to Dany.

BBP tells Dany in ASOS that he has some targaryen blood in his family from way back. I sort of feel like the way he will get back in her good graces will be to somehow find Viserion and mount him and fly him into this battle supporting Dany. It not like the Dragons are the things in Avatar where they can 'only have 1 rider in the whole life'. So who is to say only 1 person will ride each dragon? And a little bit of targaryen blood is all someone needs to ride a dragon right? I just fee like why would GRRM have put all that stuff in about BBP bonding with Viserion if nothing was going to come of it??

I feel like I am right about this. When i first thought of it, I couldn't wait to get on and see what everyone else thinks??? :dunno:

It could be that BR is warging Viserion. There was a tze post on it, I can try to dig it up. It went into BR and BBP, ect.

[Lord Godric]

For what it's worth, I've been saying the same thing for a while now. Would be really surprised if Euron didn't have Vics lost ships.

I think it is about half of his fleet missing...

But Someone said this about the WOW Tyrion chapter :

"Someone spots sails on the horizon and they think the Volanteens have arrived, but Jorah Mormont spots the Krakens on the sails and says they are also flying dragon banners"

I do not recall Vic having Dragon banners... this sounds like Euron to me beacuse he is "godless" and abandoning his own sigil ?? I dont know. :bang:

But don't we know from the set up of Victarion's chapters that he is just outside of Meereen? It would be interesting if Euron came after and pinned Victarion in, but I think those ships Barristans sees have to be Victarion's.

[Sailor's Wife]

Many thanks, Azador!

[Juan_Snow]

Yeah, I do think that Vic is dumb, but that doesn't mean he isn't a good warrior (e.g. Tyrion describes the Mountain as a dumb animal but with great warrior instincts), sailor and commander. In real life you often meet people who are considered to be very smart, like for instance a brilliant mathimatician, who turn out to be absolutely brilliant in their fielth but when you ask who the President is or what the capital of Austria is they don't know what your talking about.

Vic is one of those guys imo.

I agree. To me the Vic is as dumb as a stump statement means he's easy for Euron to manipulate. He's doing exactly what Euron wants him to while he thinks he's out-smarting Euron.

[aryagonnakill]

I agree. To me the Vic is as dumb as a stump statement means he's easy for Euron to manipulate. He's doing exactly what Euron wants him to while he thinks he's out-smarting Euron.

I feel there was no way for Euron to predict Moqorro, however I could be wrong.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I think Tyrion is unhappy becasue he got stuck in hte middle of a fight.

It could be that BR is warging Viserion. There was a tze post on it, I can try to dig it up. It went into BR and BBP, ect.

oh so you think Viserion is already being warged by BR? and that is why he will be controllable for someone like BBP to ride him?

[HannibalStark]

After reading some of ASOS when Brown Ben Plumm is first helping Dany break into Mereen and Viserion jumps on him and likes him in her Pavilion, then how in DwD BBP is with Tyrion and trying to decide how to defect back to Dany's team, and in the new sample Tyrion Chapter, BBP is still wanting to go back to Dany.

BBP tells Dany in ASOS that he has some targaryen blood in his family from way back. I sort of feel like the way he will get back in her good graces will be to somehow find Viserion and mount him and fly him into this battle supporting Dany. It not like the Dragons are the things in Avatar where they can 'only have 1 rider in the whole life'. So who is to say only 1 person will ride each dragon? And a little bit of targaryen blood is all someone needs to ride a dragon right? I just fee like why would GRRM have put all that stuff in about BBP bonding with Viserion if nothing was going to come of it??

I feel like I am right about this. When i first thought of it, I couldn't wait to get on and see what everyone else thinks??? :dunno:

I don't think BBP being liked by Dany's dragons just as he was liked by Dany will have any significance later...

Ben at that time wasn't planning on betraying Dany so there was no reason for her dragons to dislike him or sense his upcoming betrayal...I just think it the dragons liking him, like Dany liking him shows that she can be fooled and betrayed as she has learned.

I don't think the dragons have the same connection/purpose that the dire wolves have with the Stark children.

I just don't see BBP having any interaction with a dragon in the future...there are still TONS of people out there with at least "a drop" or more of Targ blood.

Ben said he is from nearly every part of the known world....I think it was just him being a braggart, not some kind of foreshadowing.

[aryagonnakill]

I don't think BBP being liked by Dany's dragons just as he was liked by Dany will have any significance later...

Ben at that time wasn't planning on betraying Dany so there was no reason for her dragons to dislike him or sense his upcoming betrayal...I just think it the dragons liking him, like Dany liking him shows that she can be fooled and betrayed as she has learned.

I don't think the dragons have the same connection/purpose that the dire wolves have with the Stark children.

I just don't see BBP having any interaction with a dragon in the future...there are still TONS of people out there with at least "a drop" or more of Targ blood.

Ben said he is from nearly every part of the known world....I think it was just him being a braggart, not some kind of foreshadowing.

I don't see Brown Ben just hoping on a dragon and Bam you got a dragonrider, and I hope he doesn't ride a dragon, at least not permanently, however the end of the last Tyrion chapter from DWD not the spoiler chapter does make it seem like Brown Bens lineage will at the very least be fully explained. Tyrions words were something like "I know the dragons liked you, and I know why". I just think it gives some credence to the post you quoted.

[NewJeffCT]

wow, thanks for all the notes Azador. Some great stuff.

Did GRRM mention anything at all about any progress on the book itself? (It was posted a few times early in the thread and I read nearly every post to see if it was answered and I did not see the answer...)

[Fender]

Azador is my new hero.

[Razha]

I don't see Brown Ben just hoping on a dragon and Bam you got a dragonrider, and I hope he doesn't ride a dragon, at least not permanently, however the end of the last Tyrion chapter from DWD not the spoiler chapter does make it seem like Brown Bens lineage will at the very least be fully explained. Tyrions words were something like "I know the dragons liked you, and I know why". I just think it gives some credence to the post you quoted.

I think there is a possibility that at a certain moment Brown Ben might become a temporary rider for one of the dragons, thus splitting 3 dragons between 3 different partys - one with danny, one with ironborn and one with BBP /Tyrion.

I also think that exept for Danny/Drogon duo, the other 2 dragons might change riders over the next 2 books (the new riders of course will take over after the deaths of the previous ones)

For example, this might mean

Victarion temporarily controls 1 dragon, and then it is taken over by Euron

Brown Ben controls another one, but then, after BBP dies his dragon goes to someone else (Tyrion, Aegon, Jon, Darkstar, Samwell:) ???? I don't know)

[JonGriff]

Man up until yesterday I had only checked out the Theon WoW chapter (yet I finished DoD a couple of months after it came out) so Im just losing my mind with these chapters!!!! I mean I always thought that the siege of Meeren would be the most epic battle yet but it looks as though its surpassing my expectations!!!! We still dont know what will happen with Dany and that Khalasar she found,or what the dragons will do during the battle,or what Tyrions plan is or even if the Tattered Prince will keep his promise!!!! Damn im excited, I think im gonna blow up a couple of years before the book comes out.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I think there is a possibility that at a certain moment Brown Ben might become a temporary rider for one of the dragons, thus splitting 3 dragons between 3 different partys - one with danny, one with ironborn and one with BBP /Tyrion.

I also think that exept for Danny/Drogon duo, the other 2 dragons might change riders over the next 2 books (the new riders of course will take over after the deaths of the previous ones)

For example, this might mean

Victarion temporarily controls 1 dragon, and then it is taken over by Euron

Brown Ben controls another one, but then, after BBP dies his dragon goes to someone else (Tyrion, Aegon, Jon, Darkstar, Samwell:) ???? I don't know)

I am tending to agree with this, i think Rhaegal and viserion will have a few riders each. And I think Victarion will blow the horn and get Rhaegal and BBP will ride viserion, but I think he will have Dany's back, I don't think they will go rogue or anything.

I am still very curious as to what affect blowing the horn will have on the dragons demeanor. Will it just tame him immediately into calm submission? that doesn't seen likely right?

[DExit]

I am still very curious as to what affect blowing the horn will have on the dragons demeanor. Will it just tame him immediately into calm submission? that doesn't seen likely right?

It will force the dragons into submission, otherwise it's useless, but they probably won't like it and will continue to be very agressive.

[Razha]

There migh be several "twists" behind this dragon horn trick...

1. The main one - already pointed out by many on this forum - if Vick goes on with his plan... will blowing the dragon horn bind the dragon (s) to him or to EURON? Was Euron so confident/trusting that he let Vick have such a powerfull tool? Is there some catch behind his plan?

2. Even if Vick manages to bind the Dragon (s) - what does this mean exactly? Does he become a Dragon rider?? but 1 person can not be rider of 2 dragons. It is quite murky even if he gets only one dragon (and I mentioned earlier that I think he will manage to get only one while the other dragon will end with some other group of players)

but imagine both Rhaegal and Viserion are sitting on the mereneese beech having a lunch,

here comes Vick and his "horn-blowers" :)))

- and they blow...

2 Dragons = 2 Riders so there is no logical reason for both of them choosing Vick, or say Rhaegal choses Vick and Viserion - dusky woman...

What I am trying to say - I suspect binding the dragons is quite different from becoming a dragon rider - as you can ride only 1 dragon at a time, but in theory you can bind many dragons.

So what does "binding" mean???

Maybe it means that dragons keep running around their binder, wrecking havock and burning and eating everyone and everything nearby ?? :)))

[JMJ]

(snip)

So what does "binding" mean???

Maybe it means that dragons keep running around their binder, wrecking havock and burning and eating everyone and everything nearby ?? :)))

We have no idea what blowing the dragonbinder horn will do. I suspect it won't be as straightforward as someone blows it and the dragons come up to you - ie, it's not a dragon version of a dog whistle. I suspect the horn needs to be used along with either some other magic to fully control the dragons, and/or the dragons need to be more fully trained than Dany's are to respond as desired.