Moments of Foreshadowing 4

[ARYa_Nym]

Too add to my post on the earlier page.

The flower bloomed and faded. The sun rose and sank.The lover loved and went.

And what the poets said in rhyme, the young translated into practice.Girls were roses, and their seasons were short as the flowers.

Orlando, Virgina Woolf

Arya has been compared to Lyanna the winter rose. Jon's quote mentioned the spring thaw. The winter rose would die just before the spring.

ETA: So in this way Arya may take on the role as the winter rose.

[trad]

dunk&egg

"He [egg] had blue eyes, Dunk saw, very dark, almost purple"

AGOT, Bran

"Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black"

Perhaps?

[ARYa_Nym]

Arya and Jon have the same color eyes.

Arya’s eyes went wide. Dark eyes, like his.

It's the same description of Valyrian steel btw.

“Most Valyrian steel was a grey so dark it looked almost black...”

[King Bobby B]

In ACOK when Tyrion is talking to Littlefinger about his plan to marry Myrcella to Robert Arryn:

"If I gave her Jon Arryn's true killer, she might think more kindly of me."

That made Littlefinger sit up. "True killer? I confess, you make me curious. Who do you propose?"

[Newstar]

The phrasing in this exchange between Stannis and Jon Snow piqued my interest:

"By right Winterfell should go to my sister Sansa."

"Lady Lannister, you mean? Are you so eager to see the Imp perched on your father's seat? I promise you, that will not happen whilst I live, Lord Snow."

As I doubt Stannis is long for this world, does this mean that Sansa will eventually get Winterfell?

[Ser Wun Wun]

The phrasing in this exchange between Stannis and Jon Snow piqued my interest:

As I doubt Stannis is long for this world, does this mean that Sansa will eventually get Winterfell?

Good find.

Notice that Stannis also said that the Imp would not perch on Jon's father's seat whilst he lived, so I think a case can be made that the foreshadowing here also involves Tyrion. One way to look at it is to say that Tyrion will go back to Winterfell, Ned's seat (which I do think is possible). However, most of us believe that Rhaegar is Jon's actual father, and where was this prince's seat? Dragonstone.

With this in mind, I think there is some decent foreshadowing that Tyrion will go to Dragonstone/is heavily connected to the place. Tyrion has been described as a Gargoyle many times now in this series, by several characters, including himself. In fact, this is the very first description we get of Tyrion in the series:

AGOT; Jon

"Boy," a voice called out to him. Jon turned.

Tyrion Lannister was sitting on the ledge above the door to the Great Hall, looking for all the world like a gargoyle. The dwarf grinned down at him. "Is th at animal a wolf?"

Other instances:

ACOK; Tyrion

Motionless as a gargoyle, Tyrion Lannister hunched on one knee atop a merlon.

ASOS; Sansa (Cersei prepping her for her wedding with Tyrion)

When the moonstones hung from Sansa’s ears and about her neck, the queen nodded. “Yes. The gods have been kind to you, Sansa. You are a lovely girl. It seems almost obscene to squander such sweet innocence on that gargoyle.”

ASOS; Arya (The Hound ranting about the Lannisters)

“Stupid blind little wolf bitch.” His voice was rough and hard as an iron rasp. “Bugger Joffrey, bugger the queen, and bugger that twisted little gargoyle she calls a brother.

ADWD; Tyrion

And the sight of me can only be salt in her wound. They hacked off her brother’s head in the hope that it was mine, yet here I sit like some bloody gargoyle, offering empty consolations. If I were her, I’d want nothing more than to shove me into the sea.

ACOK; Davos

Davos had a thirst. He took his leave of his sons and turned his steps toward the inn. Out front squatted a waist-high gargoyle, so eroded by rain and salt that his features were all but obliterated. He and Davos were old friends, though. He gave a pat to the stone head as he went in. “Luck,” he murmured.

The way Davos pats the gargoyle on the head for luck here is similar to the way the Volantene guards rubbed Tyrion's head for luck in ADWD.

And then the strongest of them in terms of foreshadowing imo:

AFFC; Cersei

That only annoyed her further. “Your head may have glass eyes, but I do not. There are gargoyles on Dragonstone that look more like the Imp than this creature. He’s bald, and twice my brother’s age. What happened to his teeth?”

There are exactly two locations that have been described as having Gargoyles in this series: Dragonstone and Winterfell.

So with regards to Stannis's line, that 'the imp will not perch on Jon's father's seat whilst he lives', we've got decent foreshadowing that Tyrion will "perch" on Dragonstone (Rhaegar's seat) and/or Winterfell (Ned's seat) whilst Stannis is "dead".

In Theon's TWOW preview chapter that got released, Stannis not so subtly told Justin Massey that he might fake his own death, so this foreshadowing could hold true without Stannis actually being dead. He could just still be in hiding after faking his death when Tyrion goes to one or both of these places. Just mentioning that to put the hearts of uber Stannis fans at ease :)

[coil]

Good find.

Notice that Stannis also said that the Imp would not perch on Jon's father's seat whilst he lived, so I think a case can be made that the foreshadowing here also involves Tyrion. One way to look at it is to say that Tyrion will go back to Winterfell, Ned's seat (which I do think is possible). However, most of us believe that Rhaegar is Jon's actual father, and where was this prince's seat? Dragonstone.

With this in mind, I think there is some decent foreshadowing that Tyrion will go to Dragonstone/is heavily connected to the place. Tyrion has been described as a Gargoyle many times now in this series, by several characters, including himself. In fact, this is the very first description we get of Tyrion in the series:

Other instances:

The way Davos pats the gargoyle on the head for luck here is similar to the way the Volantene guards rubbed Tyrion's head for luck in ADWD.

And then strongest of them in terms of foreshadowing imo:

There are exactly two locations that have been described as having Gargoyles in this series: Dragonstone and Winterfell.

So with regards to Stannis's line, that 'the imp will not perch on Jon's father's seat whilst he lives', we've got decent foreshadowing that Tyrion will "perch" on Dragonstone (Rhaegar's seat) and/or Winterfell (Ned's seat) whilst Stannis is "dead".

In Theon's TWOW preview chapter that got released, Stannis not so subtly told Justin Massey that he might fake his own death, so this foreshadowing could hold true without Stannis actually being dead. He could just still be in hiding after faking his death when Tyrion goes to one or both of these places. Just mentioning that to put the hearts of uber Stannis fans at ease :)

I really like your catch, but Gargoyles are made of stone.

What if this foreshadowing involves the greyscale rather than Dragonstone? :D

Particularly nice the "patting the head for luck" one, I can't believe I missed that!

[FittleLinger]

coil, you just stole my post! Brilliant, and the Davos - gargoyle - patting on the head was the most fascinating of all.

And I too think it could be something about greyscale. For example Tyrion catching it, or him surviving it (developing some kind of immunity maybe, if an outbreak takes place), or maybe he is just a carrier and will be the cause of an outbreak? Imagine Meereen and their Pale Mare, and suddenly - greyscale.

Heh, I think I have a new semi cracpot theory - Tyrion is the carrier of greyscale and will cause an outbreak (maybe in Slaver's bay). Didn't Dany have a vision of a corpse with a sad grey smile coming on a ship?

[Ser Wun Wun]

Greyscale, hmmm.....I didn't think of that. Interesting, wasn't Shireen (who has greyscale) compared to a gargoyle by LF at one point? I think it could fit. Not that it precludes my uber awesome Tyrion going to Dragonstone/Winterfell theory or anything B)

One other possible bit of Tyrion/Gargoyle foreshadowing:

ADWD; Theon

The entrance to the crypts was in the oldest section of the castle, near the foot of the First Keep, which had sat unused for hundreds of years. Ramsay had put it to the torch when he sacked Winterfell, and much of what had not burned had collapsed. Only a shell remained, one side open to the elements and filling up with snow. Rubble was strewn all about it: great chunks of shattered masonry, burned beams, broken gargoyles. The falling snow had covered almost all of it, but part of one gargoyle still poked above the drift, its grotesque face snarling sightless at the sky.

A snarling gargoyle survives....then here is what Moqorro see's of Tyrion in his flames:

ADWD; Tyrion

“Dragons,” Moqorro said in the Common Tongue of Westeros. He spoke it very well, with hardly a trace of accent. No doubt that was one reason the high priest Benerro had chosen him to bring the faith of R’hllor to Daenerys Targaryen. “Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all.”

“Snarling? An amiable fellow like me?” Tyrion was almost flattered.

So Winterfell is in ruins, covered in snow....but one lone gargoyle survives to snarl sightlessly at the sky. Could this foreshadow Tyrion surviving the upcoming Ragnarok-like apocalypse thingy (while maybe ending up blind...)?

He does have a habit of surviving impossibly dangerous situations...lucky little imp.

[FittleLinger]

Yeah, your WF and DS parallels are cool and good catches, it's just that Tyrion has had an immediate encounter with greyscale. It could easily be both or neither though :D

PS. I see you're good at getting quotes, can you please find me the one about the Dany prophecy where a corpse with a sad smile comes on a ship if it's not too much of a bother? And aslo - was this a Quaithe or HOTU prophecy? Thanks.

[Beric Zoolander]

Arya and Jon have the same color eyes.

It's the same description of Valyrian steel btw.

Thats a cool connection I really like that.

[Ser Wun Wun]

Yeah, your WF and DS parallels are cool and good catches, it's just that Tyrion has had an immediate encounter with greyscale. It could easily be both or neither though :D

PS. I see you're good at getting quotes, can you please find me the one about the Dany prophecy where a corpse with a sad smile comes on a ship if it's not too much of a bother? And aslo - was this a Quaithe or HOTU prophecy? Thanks.

Sure, no problem. I am indeed fantastic at getting quotes (CTRL+F all the way). I also have a knack for inventive google searches....not to brag or anything :)

ACOK: Dany

Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.... mother of dragons, bride of fire...

This is from HOTU, by the way.

[Newstar]

Ser Wun Wun, you shame me with all this awesome speculation! I'd kind of written off the part about Tyrion in that bit of dialogue from Stannis since it seemed to be foreshadowing something quite unlikely, but let's throw open the gates and speculate away.

Here's the quote again:

"Are you so eager to see the Imp perched on your father's seat? I promise you, that will not happen whilst I live, Lord Snow."

Here, when Stannis states "the Imp perched on your father's seat," he is referring to Tyrion becoming Lord of Winterfell. So taken at face value and using Stannis' meaning, this seems to be foreshadowing Tyrion becoming Lord of Winterfell. But as Ser Wun Wun pointed out, there are several other possible references here.

"Your father" = Ned? Rhaegar? Ned isn't Jon's father, Rhaegar is.

"Your father's seat" = Winterfell (Ned's seat)? Dragonstone (Rhaegar's seat)?

"Seat" = "Seat" could mean a seat as in a chair or a throne. It could also mean "seat" as in a noble house's seat.

"the Imp perched on" = Perched implies something different than sitting or occupying a seat. Dragons perch, don't they? It might be a bit literal, but maybe Tyrion (astride a dragon) will literally "perch" atop Winterfell or Dragonstone.

Yeah, it could mean any number of things. Stannis is basically saying here that Tyrion perching in Jon's father's seat will happen over his dead body, and when a character in this series says something will happen over his dead body, that makes me sit up and look for foreshadowing hints.

So with regards to Stannis's line, that 'the imp will not perch on Jon's father's seat whilst he lives', we've got decent foreshadowing that Tyrion will "perch" on Dragonstone (Rhaegar's seat) and/or Winterfell (Ned's seat) whilst Stannis is "dead".

Yes, agreed. It depends what "perching" will mean, though. It could just mean Tyrion will go to these places, as you said (maybe astride a dragon, since dragons perch).

To get a little crackpotty, Stannis in the quote is referencing Tyrion becoming Lord of Winterfell. In ASOS, when Tyrion contemplated the idea of becoming Lord of Winterfell when Tywin floated the marriage to Sansa, he felt a "queer chill." Maybe an unintended glimpse of the future? That would tie in with the quote posted from ADWD of a lone gargoyle poking through the snow at Winterfell, "snarling" at the sky.

There's this quote from AGOT:

]Tyrion Lannister was sitting on the ledge above the door to the Great Hall, looking for all the world like a gargoyle.

Interesting thing about gargoyles--besides the stone/greyscale association, of course--is that they were used as "protectors." They were intended to frighten off evil and harmful spirits and offer protection to those within the building. And in this conversation with Jon in AGOT, Jon sees Tyrion sitting and looking "like a gargoyle" on a Winterfell ledge.

For all the trouble that Tyrion's kidnapping caused, Tyrion's symbolic associations with the gargoyle might point to a positive/benevolent role if he winds up at Winterfell again. (On the other hand, there's foreshadowing to suggest he'll wind up on the opposite side of the Starks in whatever conflict is brewing--the direwolves attacking Tyrion in AGOT, his thought of running naked before a wolf pack in AGOT, etc.--so who knows?)

Greyscale, hmmm.....I didn't think of that. Interesting, wasn't Shireen (who has greyscale) compared to a gargoyle by LF at one point? I think it could fit. Not that it precludes my uber awesome Tyrion going to Dragonstone/Winterfell theory or anything B)

Heck, both could happen for sure.

So Winterfell is in ruins, covered in snow....but one lone gargoyle survives to snarl sightlessly at the sky. Could this foreshadow Tyrion surviving the upcoming Ragnarok-like apocalypse thingy (while maybe ending up blind...)?

He does have a habit of surviving impossibly dangerous situations...lucky little imp.

Could be. Some think his luck has to eventually run out, and others look at his track record and think his cockroach-level survivability won't change anytime soon.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

For all the trouble that Tyrion's kidnapping caused, Tyrion's symbolic associations with the gargoyle might point to a positive/benevolent role if he winds up at Winterfell again. (On the other hand, there's foreshadowing to suggest he'll wind up on the opposite side of the Starks in whatever conflict is brewing--the direwolves attacking Tyrion in AGOT, his thought of running naked before a wolf pack in AGOT, etc.--so who knows?)

I wonder if this somehow foreshadows that when the Starks become players again, Tyrion won't be able to hide behind the lies he tells himself to justify his actions, but even so he seems to be the most qualified to broker a peace between the Targs and Starks

[Newstar]

I wonder if this somehow foreshadows that when the Starks become players again, Tyrion won't be able to hide behind the lies he tells himself to justify his actions, but even so he seems to be the most qualified to broker a peace between the Targs and Starks

It depends on whether Tyrion's arc continues to take him on his downward spiral (so that by the end, he's aligned against the Starks and has done a 180 from his positive connections with Bran and Jon in AGOT) or whether he pulls out of it and his friendship with Jon comes into play to build an alliance between the Starks and Dany/the Targs. It could go either way, really.

[Ser Wun Wun]

Bran used to have a positive association with gargoyles:

AGOT; Bran

Bran could perch for hours among the shapeless, rain-worn gargoyles that brooded over the First Keep, watching it all:

But one possibly ominous fact is that Bran was perched on a gargoyle while spying on Jaime and Cersei, which he fell from:

AGOT; Bran

The woman pushed the man away wildly, shouting and pointing. Bran tried to pull himself up, bending double as he reached for the gargoyle. He was in too much of a hurry. His hand scraped uselessly across smooth stone, and in his panic his legs slipped, and suddenly he was failing.

Then he had a nightmare about gargoyles that used to be lions:

AGOT; Bran

Far above him, outlined against a vast pale moon, he thought he could see the shapes of gargoyles. His arms were sore and aching, but he dared not rest. He forced himself to climb faster. The gargoyles watched him ascend. Their eyes glowed red as hot coals in a brazier. Perhaps once they had been lions, but now they were twisted and grotesque. Bran could hear them whispering to each other in soft stone voices terrible to hear. He must not listen, he told himself, he must not hear, so long as he did not hear them he was safe. But when the gargoyles pulled themselves loose from the stone and padded down the side of the tower to where Bran clung, he knew he was not safe after all. "I didn't hear," he wept as they came closer and closer, "I didn't, I didn't."

This dream seems to obviously be about what happened with Jaime and Cersei, but those two have never been referred to as gargoyles at any other point in this story. So does that mean Bran will always be afraid of gargoyles now? Or will he learn to love them again, like he did when he would perch on them for hours while climbing around Winterfell? I guess it could go either way (so I didn't really offer much of an answer to the question now did I!).

I'm just trying to milk this Tyrion=gargoyle thing for all it's worth. So here is one last instance of a Stark dealing with gargoryles:

ASOS; Sansa

The First Keep was simple enough, an old round drum tower, but Sansa was stymied again when it came to putting the gargoyles around the top. Again he had the answer. “It’s been snowing on your castle, my lady,” he pointed out. “What do the gargoyles look like when they’re covered with snow?”

Sansa closed her eyes to see them in memory. “They’re just white lumps.”

“Well, then. Gargoyles are hard, but white lumps should be easy.” And they were.

I actually have no analysis to offer on this one; I have no idea if it does or does not foreshadow anything. I just thought it was interesting that Sansa, Tyrion's wife, was trying to build gargoyles on her Winterfell snow castle. Maybe someone smarter than me can find some significance in that :dunno:

[Newstar]

But one possibly ominous fact is that Bran was perched on a gargoyle while spying on Jaime and Cersei, which he fell from:

Then he had a nightmare about gargoyles that used to be lions

This dream seems to obviously be about what happened with Jaime and Cersei, but those two have never been referred to as gargoyles at any other point in this story. So does that mean Bran will always be afraid of gargoyles now? Or will he learn to love them again, like he did when he would perch on them for hours while climbing around Winterfell? I guess it could go either way (so I didn't really offer much of an answer to the question now did I!).

These are very good points (and good quotes, too, nice catch!). Of course, Tyrion has always been "twisted and grotesque," or at least described as such, since those particular aspects of his physical appearance date since birth. The lions here (seeming to represent Jaime and Cersei, I guess) are conflated in Bran's dream with the gargoyles.

It is also true that the symbolic implications of any given item in mythology/traditional symbolism/what have you may be positive, while being negative/sinister within the world of ASOIAF. (Blood oranges have very strong associations with violence/death/war in ASOIAF, but not so much in real life, although in some cultures according to Wikipedia blood oranges are a symbol of the death of Christ. The More You Know!) So even if gargoyles were actually viewed as protectors/means of scaring away evil, within ASOIAF they may be associated with evil, monsters, etc., and Tyrion's continued association with them is an indication of something darker and more sinister in Tyrion's arc. (or, of course, a continuation or extension of the Tyrion/stone/greyscale imagery).

There are several mentions of gargoyles where they seem to be fixtures or features associatd with Winterfell and Dragonstone, though, so assuming he lives long enough and doesn't die for his crimes or winds up being packed off to the Wall, I could see Tyrion winding up permanently as a "fixture" at either place (or semi-permanently, I suppose, until the greyscale finishes him off).

I actually have no analysis to offer on this one; I have no idea if it does or does not foreshadow anything. I just thought it was interesting that Sansa, Tyrion's wife, was trying to build gargoyles on her Winterfell snow castle. Maybe someone smarter than me can find some significance in that :dunno:

Maybe she was just trying to be accurate? (However, as you posted upthread, Cersei specifically described Tyrion to Sansa as a "gargoyle" shortly before the wedding, although Sansa didn't understand what she meant.)

[coil]

Quality material

ACoK, from the very first page of the prologue:

Cressen, surrounded by gargoyles, looks at them: "If only their stone toungues could speak..."

One of Tyrion's catchphrases is "My big mouth/my toungue will be the death of me" (I'm not reading from the english version of the books).

In ADwD, after Tyrion is rescued from drowning, Haldon half-maester says that those affected by greyscale could turn into stone from the inside, and up until now we've seen character who turned stone from the outside (I don't think GRRM would add the comment just because), Shireen and Jon Connington that is.

Interesting, interesting...

[Ser Wun Wun]

Was going over this in another thread yesterday, so I decided to put together a collection of all the quotes that I think could foreshadow Cersei burning down King's Landing.

First the quotes that liken Cersei to wildfire:

AGOT; Ned (Fire Eater found this one, thanks!)

Her eyes burned, green fire in the dusk, like the lioness that was her sigil.

ACOK; Tyrion

Candlelight gleamed green as wildfire in Cersei’s eyes. “If we send you, Tyrion, it will be as if Joffrey went himself. And who better, You wield words as skillfully as Jaime wields a sword.”

ACOK; Sansa

The queen was drinking heavily, but the wine only seemed to make her more beautiful; her cheeks were flushed, and her eyes had a bright, feverish heat to them as she looked down over the hall. Eyes of wildfire, Sansa thought.

AFFC; Jaime

His sister liked to think of herself as Lord Tywin with teats, but she was wrong. Their father had been as relentless and implacable as a glacier, where Cersei was all wildfire, especially when thwarted.

Now the quotes that liken her to Aerys:

AFFC; Cersei

Jaime ignored that. “If these flames spread beyond the tower, you may end up burning down the castle whether you mean to or not. Wildfire is treacherous.”

“Lord Hallyne has assured me that his pyromancers can control the fire.” The Guild of Alchemists had been brewing fresh wildfire for a fortnight. “Let all of King’s Landing see the flames. It will be a lesson to our enemies.”

“Now you sound like Aerys.”

AFFC; Cersei (watching the Tower of the Hand burn down with wildfire)

It is beautiful, she thought, as beautiful as Joffrey, when they laid him in my arms. No man had ever made her feel as good as she had felt when he took her nipple in his mouth to nurse.

.....a little later in the same chapter

“No need.” Cersei felt too alive for sleep. The wildfire was cleansing her, burning away all her rage and fear, filling her with resolve. “The flames are so pretty. I want to watch them for a while.”

AFFC; Jaime (remembering watching Cersei while the wildfire burned down the Tower of the Hand)

Even in the baleful glow, Cersei had been beautiful to look upon. She’d stood with one hand on her breast, her lips parted, her green eyes shining. She is crying, Jaime had realized, but whether it was from grief or ecstasy he could not have said.

The sight had filled him with disquiet, reminding him of Aerys Targaryen and the way a burning would arouse him.

.....a little later in the same chapter

Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat, Jaime remembered, studying his sister’s smile. Let him be the king of ashes.

Now some foreshadowing that KL and it's inhabitants will be burned:

ACOK; Tyrion

Tyrion shifted uncomfortably in his saddle. He was pleased that Cersei had not been idle, but wildfire was treacherous stuff, and ten thousand jars were enough to turn all of King’s Landing into cinders.

AFFC; Jaime

The green light of the wildfire had bathed the face of the watchers, so they looked like nothing so much as rotting corpses, a pack of gleeful ghouls, but some of the corpses were prettier than others.

These last two are certainly ominous...

[coil]

And we know who killed the last Aerys... and Cersei should as well, but I got the impression that she never understood the reasons of his actions.

I bet that if she wasn't so concerned about Tyrion she wouldn't go around burning towers.

“Let all of King’s Landing see the flames. It will be a lesson to our enemies.”

“Now you sound like Aerys.”

Tell me what you want, but this, coming straight from Jaime, is one of the scariest implicit threats of the whole ASOIAF series.

-------

ACoK, Arya VII:

Arya, exactly like her brother Robb, goes into the forest, 'sword' in hand, to let off steam.

Joffrey becomes a broken stick and dies for first, then Arya attacks the leaves/Hound, Cersei, Ilyn Payne and ser Meryn all togheter, making them "a green mash".

Foreshadowing or not?

Arya doesn't have anything to do with Joffrey's death and her interactions with the Hound are without the other members of the list... but all the reading about wildfire and his green colour makes me think.

Those four have been on the same side during the BBW, after all. But I'm not sure if I can find more traits in common.