Moments of Foreshadowing 4

[ARYa_Nym]

Uh, that's really interesting coming from someone who is ignoring the birth of a son in both prior BWR instances.

According to the text, if you want a symbolic blue winter rose you need at least the following ingredients: a Stark girl who gives birth to a son. Preferably one stolen by musically inclined royalty.

I always said that Arya's story doesn't have to be exactly the same and wasn't the one who started the argument of one fits it better because of x and y. & again this is about Dany's storyline.

The story is that a Stark girl gives birth to the son of the man who stole her and later dies

ETA:& Bael considered the Stark daughter a rose before he even impregnated her. This parallels Mance trying to take Arya out of WF.

[J. Stargaryen]

Yes, they both give birth to sons, that's true. But in the Bael the Bard story the winter rose is explicitly said to be representative of the Stark maiden he took, not the son she had for him.

The Stark maiden was obviously the rose that Bael had, um.... "plucked." I'm not denying the significance of the Stark maiden having a son in Bael's story; it obviously lends credibility to the theory that Lyanna had Jon after Rhaegar gave her some blue roses and "plucked" her (as if R+L=J needed any more evidence). That doesn't change the fact that the winter rose is still explicitly cast as symbolically representing the Stark maiden in Bael's story.

<snip>

This is part of the misunderstanding with the BWR symbolism. People think that because the daughter is the rose, that the rose can only be the daughter. Think along the lines of sigils.

Look at this part:

“No. They had been in Winterfell all the time, hiding with the dead beneath the castle. The maid loved Bael so dearly she bore him a son, the song says... though if truth be told, all the maids love Bael in them songs he wrote. Be that as it may, what’s certain is that Bael left the child in payment for the rose he’d plucked unasked, and that the boy grew to be the next Lord Stark. So there it is-you have Bael’s blood in you, same as me.”

Bael took a daughter, but left a rose. Bael took a daughter, but gave a son. The son as payment for the rose indicates that the son is of equal value to the rose; i.e., the son = the rose.

ETA: Yes, this is subtler than the 'plucking' symbolism. But, you know, that seems about right in the story I'm reading. And if the winter roses can't be Stark boys, then what the heck did Rhaegar put in Lyanna's lap at Harrenhal? Because that's some awfully coincidental symbolism that doesn't work otherwise.

[J. Stargaryen]

I always said that Arya's story doesn't have to be exactly the same and wasn't the one who started the argument of one fits it better because of x and y. & again this is about Dany's storyline.

The story is that a Stark girl gives birth to the son of the man who stole her and later dies

ETA:& Bael considered the Stark daughter a rose before he even impregnated her. This parallels Mance trying to take Arya out of WF.

I missed this at first, and wasn't able to answer until now. I'll reply paragraph for paragraph.

No one is saying anything needs to match up "exactly". But, if you want to make the comparison a few key points should match up. For example, Rhaegar wasn't King-beyond-the-Wall, but he was the crown prince. If you want to show that Arya is symbolically a winter rose, then it seems to me that she should have in common with Lyanna the things Lyanna has in common with the BtB Stark girl. Otherwise, why do those two have certain, specific things in common?

[sarcasm]Thanks for clarifying.[/sarcasm] Yes, I realize there are no sarcasm tags.

Bael thinks of the Stark daughter as a winter rose, but curiously the Stark lord doesn't pick up on Bael's intentions. So, apparently this Stark daughter-winter rose connection wasn't something that the people of Winterfell were familiar with. It might just be that the BtB story is where the Stark daughter-winter rose symbolism begins. And, BTW, Mance goes to rescue Arya, but it's not really Arya, it's (f)Arya. I'm not really sure if I'd use that as evidence of Arya symbolically being a winter rose.

[ARYa_Nym]

I missed this at first, and wasn't able to answer until now. I'll reply paragraph for paragraph.

No one is saying anything needs to match up "exactly". But, if you want to make the comparison a few key points should match up. For example, Rhaegar wasn't King-beyond-the-Wall, but he was the crown prince. If you want to show that Arya is symbolically a winter rose, then it seems to me that she should have in common with Lyanna the things Lyanna has in common with the BtB Stark girl. Otherwise, why do those two have certain, specific things in common?

[sarcasm]Thanks for clarifying.[/sarcasm] Yes, I realize there are no sarcasm tags.

Bael thinks of the Stark daughter as a winter rose, but curiously the Stark lord doesn't pick up on Bael's intentions. So, apparently this Stark daughter-winter rose connection wasn't something that the people of Winterfell were familiar with. It might just be that the BtB story is where the Stark daughter-winter rose symbolism begins. And, BTW, Mance goes to rescue Arya, but it's not really Arya, it's (f)Arya. I'm not really sure if I'd use that as evidence of Arya symbolically being a winter rose.

What I was saying was that you chose to focus on the having the son part and disregard the fact that both Stark girls die in the stories and of course that Lyanna had the son of the man who stole her and so did the Stark girl that Bael stole.

I focused on the symbolic meaning of being a rose, the dying, and the fact that Arya has textual foreshadowing in regards to Dany. Ned said Arya may have a similar end to Lyanna. It doesn't have to be specifically the same.

In both stories the Stark lord isn't able to anticipate the man who stole the Stark girls intentions. If they had the whole thing would have been avoided so I don't put much stock in him not picking up the reference.

Mance (who is a singer and king beyond the wall btw) thinks it's Arya and that's what matters. He wanted to "pluck her from WF."

[J. Stargaryen]

What I was saying was that you chose to focus on the having the son part and disregard the fact that both Stark girls die in the stories and of course that Lyanna had the son of the man who stole her and so did the Stark girl that Bael stole.

I focused on the symbolic meaning of being a rose, the dying, and the fact that Arya has textual foreshadowing in regards to Dany. Ned said Arya may have a similar end to Lyanna. It doesn't have to be specifically the same.

In both stories the Stark lord isn't able to anticipate the man who stole the Stark girls intentions. If they had the whole thing would have been avoided so I don't put much stock in him not picking up the reference.

Mance (who is a singer and king beyond the wall btw) thinks it's Arya and that's what matters. He wanted to "pluck her from WF."

I'm not ignoring the deaths, but I'm saying that death without having a son first is half the equation. Anything from the stories of BtB and Lyanna that match up would qualify for my 'ingredients'. I didn't list that, but I should have. The death part should be there, but by the same logic, so should the baby.

My whole point is that Arya having a similar arc to Lyanna =/= Arya being a winter rose. Because it's not things like being willful or dying young that made Lyanna a winter rose.

You don't have to put much stock into it if you don't want, but I don't think that's a very good answer. Objectively it seems problematic that Bael mentions the winter rose and no one in Winterfell is the wiser. To me that indicates that the court of Winterfell wasn't familiar with the connection. Not to mention that there are some differences between the way Rhaegar stole Lyanna and the way Bael stole that Stark girl, so I think you can cast those parts out; keep the parts that are the same.

Again, just going to say that the fact that it wasn't really Arya doesn't strike me as good evidence that Arya is a winter rose. In fact, it seems to me that it's equally likely that it's indicating the exact opposite.

---

You know, maybe there is a possibility that Sansa and Arya are two halves of Lyanna and the winter rose symbolism. Sansa is the beautiful one, who will have a baby. Arya is the wild child, who will die. On her own though, I don't think Arya fits the symbolism that GRRM has laid out in the stories of BtB and Lyanna.

[ARYa_Nym]

I'm not ignoring the deaths, but I'm saying that death without having a son first is half the equation. Anything from the stories of BtB and Lyanna that match up would qualify for my 'ingredients'. I didn't list that, but I should have. The death part should be there, but by the same logic, so should the baby.

You did because you said Sansa matches it more because she will have a son. Sansa having a son doesn't have much to do with Bael/Rhaegar if it's not the son of the man who stole her who is Petry Baelish.

My whole point is that Arya having a similar arc to Lyanna =/= Arya being a winter rose. Because it's not things like being willful or dying young that made Lyanna a winter rose.

No, but the symbolic meaning of a rose is what I'm talking about. Lyanna may have very well bloomed, died, and withered away during the winter,

You don't have to put much stock into it if you don't want, but I don't think that's a very good answer. Objectively it seems problematic that Bael mentions the winter rose and no one in Winterfell is the wiser. To me that indicates that the court of Winterfell wasn't familiar with the connection. Not to mention that there are some differences between the way Rhaegar stole Lyanna and the way Bael stole that Stark girl, so I think you can cast those parts out; keep the parts that are the same.

Again, just going to say that the fact that it wasn't really Arya doesn't strike me as good evidence that Arya is a winter rose. In fact, it seems to me that it's equally likely that it's indicating the exact opposite.

They would surely get what he meant after he stole the girl. The point is that Bael thinks the girl is a flower. Bael stealing the girl is more similar to what Mance was trying to do.

You know, maybe there is a possibility that Sansa and Arya are two halves of Lyanna and the winter rose symbolism. Sansa is the beautiful one, who will have a baby. Arya is the wild child, who will die. On her own though, I don't think Arya fits the symbolism that GRRM has laid out in the stories of BtB and Lyanna.

What does Sansa have to do with Dany? As I was saying Arya is the Stark with the most foreshadowing in relation to her besides Jon.

Arya looks like Lyanna and will bloom (flower) during the winter as opposed to before.

[J. Stargaryen]

You did because you said Sansa matches it more because she will have a son. Sansa having a son doesn't have much to do with Bael/Rhaegar if it's not the son of the man who stole her who is Petry Baelish.

No, but the symbolic meaning of a rose is what I'm talking about. Lyanna may have very well bloomed, died, and withered away during the winter,

They would surely get what he meant after he stole the girl. The point is that Bael thinks the girl is a flower. Bael stealing the girl is more similar to what Mance was trying to do.

What does Sansa have to do with Dany? As I was saying Arya is the Stark with the most foreshadowing in relation to her besides Jon.

Arya looks like Lyanna and will bloom (flower) during the winter as opposed to before.

I never said that Sansa would have a son and then not die, so I don't know where you're getting that from. I simply pointed out that there is more direct textual evidence between Sansa and the blue winter rose, as it appears in the story. I also said I think that could very well be a red herring for Jon's connection to the BtB story.

Okay, but you realize that the blue roses already have a meaning in the story, right? So it's a bit confusing to me when you do this. It's almost as if I were to insist that Jon Snow is fierce like a lion, or something. I might be able to make some connections there, but ultimately the lions are associated with someone else.

Yeah, after the fact I'm sure the Starks picked up on the metaphor. Lord Stark: Ohhhhh, I get it. That sneaky bard! Anyway, whatever Bael thought of her, the girl ended up giving birth to a son, just like Lyanna. So if you want the full symbolism as presented in the story, expect Arya to get pregnant.

What the rose has to do with Sansa is it can't be just Arya. At least not the way GRRM has laid out the BWR stories. She doesn't fit. But if you combine Sansa + Arya, then maybe you have a fit. I realize that certain connections between Dany and Arya have been foreshadowed. The notion I am trying to dispell is that Arya could be the blue flower growing from the wall in Dany's vision.

As for the last part, I'll refer you to my 2nd paragraph.

[ARYa_Nym]

I never said that Sansa would have a son and then not die, so I don't know where you're getting that from. I simply pointed out that there is more direct textual evidence between Sansa and the blue winter rose, as it appears in the story. I also said I think that could very well be a red herring for Jon's connection to the BtB story.

That's not what I just said. I said Sansa having a son doesn't have much of a connection with the Bael/Rhaegar story if it's the son of someone else as opposed to the Bael figure in her life.

Okay, but you realize that the blue roses already have a meaning in the story, right? So it's a bit confusing to me when you do this. It's almost as if I were to insist that Jon Snow is fierce like a lion, or something. I might be able to make some connections there, but ultimately the lions are associated with someone else.

Yeah, after the fact I'm sure the Starks picked up on the metaphor. Lord Stark: Ohhhhh, I get it. That sneaky bard! Anyway, whatever Bael thought of her, the girl ended up giving birth to a son, just like Lyanna. So if you want the full symbolism as presented in the story, expect Arya to get pregnant.

Yes, I said that Bael considered the Stark girl a flower. I also said that I think Dany's vision refers to Jon/Rhaegar/Lyanna but Arya can also be a winter rose.

& if you want full symbolism with Sansa expect her to get pregnant with Petyr's child then die.

I said several times now that Arya doesn't have to fully match it.

What the rose has to do with Sansa is it can't be just Arya. At least not the way GRRM has laid out the BWR stories. She doesn't fit. But if you combine Sansa + Arya, then maybe you have a fit. I realize that certain connections between Dany and Arya have been foreshadowed. The notion I am trying to dispell is that Arya could be the blue flower growing from the wall in Dany's vision.

As for the last part, I'll refer you to my 2nd paragraph.

I said what does Sansa have to with Dany.

You don't need to dispel that to me because I wasn't making that argument.

[J. Stargaryen]

That's not what I just said. I said Sansa having a son doesn't have much of a connection with the Bael/Rhaegar story if it's the son of someone else as opposed to the Bael figure in her life.

Okay. But just to be clear, I think Sansa's Bael figure would be the guy named Baelish. I'm not sure where our disconnect is on this particular point.

Yes, I said that Bael considered the Stark girl a flower. I also said that I think Dany's vision refers to Jon/Rhaegar/Lyanna but Arya can also be a winter rose.

& if you want full symbolism with Sansa expect her to get pregnant with Petyr's child then die.

Yes, exactly. That's what I think the story hints at. Except, and please take note of this, I think it is most likely a red herring. I don't think that will happen, but I think maybe we are supposed to believe that it will - as a cover for Jon's connection to the Bael story.

I said several times now that Arya doesn't have to fully match it.

You've said that, I've said that; we've both said that! We agree. However, I think there are certain criterion which must be met. You're entitled to your opinion, but I don't believe it's worth as much as the textual evidence I've provided. Does that seem like a fair position to you?

I said what does Sansa have to with Dany.

Yes, and I answered you. Sansa doesn't seem to have much to do with Dany. But Arya does. Except Arya is not a winter rose, and almost certainly not the blue flower growing out of the Wall. However, if you want to make Arya into a winter rose you just might be able to if you combine her story with Sansa's.

You don't need to dispel that to me because I wasn't making that argument.

Right, but did you notice that you and I aren't the only two people in this conversation? In fact, my original comment was in reply to Ser Wun Wun.

[ARYa_Nym]

Okay. But just to be clear, I think Sansa's Bael figure would be the guy named Baelish. I'm not sure where our disconnect is on this particular point.

Yes, exactly. That's what I think the story hints at. Except, and please take note of this, I think it is most likely a red herring. I don't think that will happen, but I think maybe we are supposed to believe that it will - as a cover for Jon's connection to the Bael story.

You've said that, I've said that; we've both said that! We agree. However, I think there are certain criterion which must be met. You're entitled to your opinion, but I don't believe it's worth as much as the textual evidence I've provided. Does that seem like a fair position to you?

Well you dismissed Arya because she won't have a child and only fits 50% of the story then said Sansa fits it more. If Sansa's son is not LF's then I consider it irrelevant to the Bael/Rhaegar story. If she does not die then it's also not exactly the same so she also fails to meet some of the criteria.

They both have been stolen/have Bael figures but I don't think Sansa completes where Arya does not fit. I don't think she will fall in love with Petyr and have his child.

I don't think we're supposed to believe that she will either. Harry the Heir may be the red herring. There's more foreshadowing that Sansa will turn on LF. I see no hints that he will impregnate her.

Yes, and I answered you. Sansa doesn't seem to have much to do with Dany. But Arya does. Except Arya is not a winter rose, and almost certainly not the blue flower growing out of the Wall. However, if you want to make Arya into a winter rose you just might be able to if you combine her story with Sansa's.

Right, but did you notice that you and I aren't the only two people in this conversation? In fact, my original comment was in reply to Ser Wun Wun.

Dany is why the subject was brought up so having a future connection with Dany is important.

Exactly. That has nothing to do with me.

Anyways, this is clogging up the thread and I like the op so I'd rather not continue.

[FittleLinger]

Bael took a daughter, but left a rose. Bael took a daughter, but gave a son. The son as payment for the rose indicates that the son is of equal value to the rose; i.e., the son = the rose.

This. Exactly. If I steal your cow and leave you a chicken instead, with this I'm telling you "the cow = the chicken", thus the rose represents the son as well. One of the morals of that story is that "Good Guy Bael" leaves a heir in WF, not being egoistic and realizing the Stark line should continue.

We can also think of the whole rose thing in another way. The rose (Stark daughter - respectively Bael's girl and Lyanna) flowers. The rose is growing, in soil, naturaly. Then, someone rips the flower from the soil, there is even that expression "taking her flower", as in taking her maidenhood. Taking her maidenhood, in medieval context, usually means getting her pregnant. Which means a child. And a flower that is ripped, eventually dies. The rose does symbolize a Stark daughter, but a highborn lady's "job", as cynical as it sounds, is to have a heir, so the things are tied together.

And about Mance - he is just using the Abel nickname just like Manderley is asking for the Rat cook song - to symbolize that you "don't f*ck with the old gods, bitch". Kind of like trying to assassinate the queen with a Guy Fawkes mask. That's why I don't think Arya fits, and I also don't think Sansa fits - she doesn't love the guy who stole her, and as a whole I don't see many parallels. She doesn't seem to fit the profile of the typical wild Stark daughter either (till now). I don't think we will see any other "real" blue winter rose symbolism than Bael's girl and Lyanna.

[Turkey Jack]

Tyrion speaking to Jon on the wall

“Most of my kin are bastards,” he said with a wry smile, “but you’re the first I've had to friend.”

Tyrion means Jon is the first bastard he calls friend

It also suggests that Tyrion and Jon are Kin

[Eir]

Tyrion speaking to Jon on the wall

“Most of my kin are bastards,” he said with a wry smile, “but you’re the first I've had to friend.”

Tyrion means Jon is the first bastard he calls friend

It also suggests that Tyrion and Jon are Kin

In a sense, they become kin when Tyrion married Sansa in A Storm of Swords.

[FittleLinger]

Tyrion speaking to Jon on the wall

“Most of my kin are bastards,” he said with a wry smile, “but you’re the first I've had to friend.”

Tyrion means Jon is the first bastard he calls friend

It also suggests that Tyrion and Jon are Kin

Yeah, what are you suggesting here, that Tyrion is a Targ?

Anyway, this is the first time I catch how witty this Tyrion line is. He isn't only saying that his family are assholes, but he is saying that he is "kin" with bastards, as he is a dwarf, but that's the first one to actually call and want him to be his friend... Ah, gotta love that guy.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Yeah, what are you suggesting here, that Tyrion is a Targ?

Anyway, this is the first time I catch how witty this Tyrion line is. He isn't only saying that his family are assholes, but he is saying that he is "kin" with bastards, as he is a dwarf, but that's the first one to actually call and want him to be his friend... Ah, gotta love that guy.

In addition to his sly wit, this could also be beautiful foreshadowing of a possible J+A= J&C (bastards) and Tyrion+Sansa=Jon's kin. Mirrored foreshadowing if you will. I do love him :)

[Pod The Impaler]

Yeah, what are you suggesting here, that Tyrion is a Targ?

Anyway, this is the first time I catch how witty this Tyrion line is. He isn't only saying that his family are assholes, but he is saying that he is "kin" with bastards, as he is a dwarf, but that's the first one to actually call and want him to be his friend... Ah, gotta love that guy.

Well, remember that in regard to Tyrion's kin being bastards, he is not being metaphorical. He does know what Cersei and Jaime were up to, and who Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen's true father is.

[FittleLinger]

In addition to his sly wit, this could also be beautiful foreshadowing of a possible J+A= J&C (bastards) and Tyrion+Sansa=Jon's kin. Mirrored foreshadowing if you will. I do love him :)

Har! I don't really believe in any of the Lannisters being Targs, but it does sound like a good foreshadowing if that be the case. The first thing that I thought of was something that Jon thinks about Joffrey, something like, "Bastards cannot train with trueborn princes", where he actually is the prince and Joffrey the bastard :) That kind of foreshadowing looks like the one you mentioned.

Well, remember that in regard to Tyrion's kin being bastards, he is not being metaphorical. He does know what Cersei and Jaime were up to, and who Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen's true father is.

Are you sure he knows at that time? Is that what he really means? Even if he does, would he tell it in such a manner to Jon? Obviously Jon didn't get it if so, but still? I haven't read in quite a while and need some context, but I think that he maybe just meant bastards as is "sons of bitches".

[Pod The Impaler]

Are you sure he knows at that time? Is that what he really means? Even if he does, would he tell it in such a manner to Jon? Obviously Jon didn't get it if so, but still? I haven't read in quite a while and need some context, but I think that he maybe just meant bastards as is "sons of bitches".

It seemed to me that he knew about the incest all along, yes. Unless someone can point out to me a point in the story where he found out, I am inclined to think he always knew (from Jaime being open with him, obviously).

So what he said to Jon Snow, he would have meant with a bit of an inside-joke which Jon would not understand (nor the readers at that point in the story).

[Fire Eater]

In the TWoW Arianne I chapter released Arianne thinks of Quentyn, He looks too much like father. Knowing what happened to Quentyn, this foreshadows Doran's death.

Also, Garlan was revealed to have been the one wearing Renly's armor in the BoBW, is known as Renly's ghost, this foreshadows his death.

This final one may not be agreed upon, but relating to the Dance of Dragons the Hand of the King was Rhaenyra's husband. During the second Dance of Dragons if Tyrion ever becomes Dany's Hand will he end as her husband as well?

ETA: fixed for accuracy

[Ser Wun Wun]

This final one may not be agreed upon, but during the Dance of Dragons the Hand of the King was Rhaenyra's husband. During the second Dance of Dragons if Tyrion ever becomes Dany's Hand will he end as her husband as well?

Actually, Lyonel Strong died about a decade before the Dance of the Dragons took place according to the wiki. Rhaenyra then married some as yet unknown member of House Targareyn, who fathered the last two of her sons. Just pointing that out.

Looking at the wiki, I also found it interesting that Rhaenyra died very early on in the Dance of the Dragons, but the fighting continued on in her son Aegon the Dragonbane's name. So if Dany is the Rhaenyra equivalent in the 2nd Dance of the Dragons war, it doesn't seem to bode well for her chances of survival.