Jon snow...and dragons

[Budj]

Jon's time in Ghost is like Luke's time on Dagobah. He will not be a warg noob when he gets back on two feet.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

One assumes they are coming to Westeros. Therefore they would be in perfect range for Bloodraven or Bran, who I think are much more likely to warg a dragon than Jon. And I don't see Jon trying to prove who he is that way, I'm more inclined to think if one or more are warged it's to get them to destroy each other. And why would it not be possible? Bloodraven controls whole flocks of ravens at once. A dragon is just an animal, a magical one, but so are direwolves. Humans can be warged, why not dragons. They're just big lizards.

In what way are direwolves "magical animals"? are they "ice made flesh"?

I don't think we should compare these dragons to normal animals, as pointed out up-thread THEY BREATHE FIRE lol. Would they have been considered such a threat by the King of the North if he could get a warg to come and control them? No the King who kneeled did so because he couldn't find a viable way to defeat the dragons.

Varamyr six skins does speak about the difficulty of controlling multiple animals, esp. the shadowcat (IIRC) who hates him for controlling her. We may not have witnessed an unsuccessful warging yet (on animals anyway) but it's far from impossible.

[lady m]

In what way are direwolves "magical animals"? are they "ice made flesh"?

I don't think we should compare these dragons to normal animals, as pointed out up-thread THEY BREATHE FIRE lol. Would they have been considered such a threat by the King of the North if he could get a warg to come and control them? No the King who kneeled did so because he couldn't find a viable way to defeat the dragons.

Varamyr six skins does speak about the difficulty of controlling multiple animals, esp. the shadowcat (IIRC) who hates him for controlling her. We may not have witnessed an unsuccessful warging yet (on animals anyway) but it's far from impossible.

Direwolves were considered an extinct magical creature when the books began, had been for centuries. They don't breathe fire, but not all magical creatures do.

Further, are dragons really 'fire made flesh' or is that Dany/Targ/Valeryian propaganda? It seems to me if they really are fire made flesh then fire shouldn't be able to hurt them. Yet, the dragons of Valerya are killed by fire, most of the Targaryen dragons killed each other and their riders in the original dance of the dragons. I think they're big lizards that happen to breathe fire.

As for wargs and greenseeers, which are wargs on steroids, a dragon is an animal with the brain capacity of a dog, according to GRRM. Animals are made to be warged if one has the ability. Will they like it? No. As you pointed out Varamyr's shadowcat didn't like it, but what did it do? It submitted. That what wargs do, they control other beings, the other beings don't like it, the shadowcat, polar bear, Hodor, but they can't fight it. The Starks direwolves are an exception to the submission rule as they have natural empathetic relationships with their own Stark, like Jon says, Ghost is him & he is Ghost. This is the exception however.

Also, what are dragon horns but a way to duplicate warging through magical means. They are submitting the minds & will of the dragons to their master because they have no other way to control them. Which means, dragons can be controlled. I'd they can be controlled, they can be warged.

I just see the obvious ||s of Aegon I & Dany and how it seems like everything is going to be the same, DRAGONS!!! Except there's this hidden thing that no one knows about and no one knows how to stop, and you kinda need to realize something exists before it can be neutralize or defeat it, that thing is wargs/greenseeers. Bloodraven & Bran are so much more powerful than any of the other players its not even funny. They are the checkmate to dragon domination.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Well I can't say I agree with that breakdown, but what I take issue w/ is the statement that:

"As for wargs and greenseeers, which are wargs on steroids"

That is not the impression that I got from the text, they seem to be seperate entities entirely (greenseer sees the future) but BR happens to have both abilities. I guess we are lacking info either way on that discussion.

your point is well taken though about dragon "propaganda". I realize not everything Targs claim is true, but I'm not quite as cynical/skeptical as you are about it. I tend to believe there is some truth in the "fire immunity" (obviously not an all the time thing, and not immunity, but a resistance; Dany shows resistance to heat...) and Targ super immunity from diseases.

[Bellatrix Stark]

Jon's time in Ghost is like Luke's time on Dagobah. He will not be a warg noob when he gets back on two feet.

I had already explained that I was mistaken. Obviously by the time Dany comes to Westeros with the dragons Jon wouldn't be a noob at warging.

[Bellatrix Stark]

Direwolves were considered an extinct magical creature when the books began, had been for centuries.

Are you sure? Because when Jon was with the Wildings and Ghost showed up no one seemed surprised by the appearance of a direwolf. I think you might mean (and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth) direwolves hadn't been seen on the southern side of the wall in centuries but that maybe they were believed to still exist beyond the wall. The Wildings seemed a-okay with the appearance of Ghost so... yeah?

[Dementia]

Are you sure? Because when Jon was with the Wildings and Ghost showed up no one seemed surprised by the appearance of a direwolf. I think you might mean (and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth) direwolves hadn't been seen on the southern side of the wall in centuries but that maybe they were believed to still exist beyond the wall. The Wildings seemed a-okay with the appearance of Ghost so... yeah?

Yeah. No one thinks direwolves are magical or extinct. They had just been driven out south of the wall.

Gods, I hope Jon doesn't warg a dragon. That sounds lame.

[Bellatrix Stark]

Yeah. No one thinks direwolves are magical or extinct. They had just been driven out south of the wall.

Gods, I hope Jon doesn't warg a dragon. That sounds lame.

Ya know I think that if he did I bet it would really addicting. To the point he wouldn't warg out. Same with Bran, who has been warned about this. But then again, Jon isn't made like that. To get addicted to things. Bran though has contemplated that, a few times too.

[Roza Ahai]

I tend to believe there is some truth in the "fire immunity" (obviously not an all the time thing, and not immunity, but a resistance; Dany shows resistance to heat...) and Targ super immunity from diseases.

Great Spring Sickness killed a lot of Targs. I don't think they are super immune to deseases.

[lady m]

Great Spring Sickness killed a lot of Targs. I don't think they are super immune to deseases.

I think the immunities they claim are fables. Lots have died from fire, even from dragons, there's sickness, I'm sure I'm missing something. They wanted the Seven Kingdoms to think they were super human, and somewhere along the line they started believing it.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Great Spring Sickness killed a lot of Targs. I don't think they are super immune to deseases.

you consider 2, or 3 targs a lot? It seems like a pretty big coincidence that the targs killed by the disease were in line for the throne, along with the hand of the king...

In any case Viserys only claims they have immunity from common afflictions/sicknesses, perhaps not from something like "the great spring sickness". The fact that Dany can never remember getting sick or having a fever is pretty telling, not to mention Tyrion's miraculous escape from greyscale.

I know Targs have burnt to death before (dragon's fire even burnt dany a little) which is why I put forth a fire "resistance" rather than "immunity" for true blooded, or otherwise special Targs.

Anyways I knew we'd get way off Topic if we got into this discussion. If you want to see points and arguments for this line of thought chk out my discussions on the A+J=T thread in the ADwD section.

[Black Crow]

In any case Viserys only claims they have immunity from common afflictions/sicknesses, perhaps not from something like "the great spring sickness". The fact that Dany can never remember getting sick or having a fever is pretty telling, not to mention Tyrion's miraculous escape from greyscale.

Can't help recalling to mind a bit of graffiti: "Charlene is too posh to have crabs - she has lobsters instead"

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Well maybe. I am a bit skeptical about warging dragons---the reaction of Varamyr's shadow cat suggests that it may not go well. Also the only critters we have seen warged so far are mammals or birds, specifically ravens.

And as for one of Dany's three, there will be no need for that: one of the other two will accept Jon as its rider straight up, I suspect.

I mean, Dany has never had a dragon warg dream like the starks. She never sees from the POV of the dragon and if she can't do it then we have no reason to believe that any Targaryens could ever do it.

I think it is likely that Bran will eventually warg a dragon, not jon. because there is soooo much talk about bran will be able to fly, while he has been flying through the ravens, i think his fate is to eventually warg a dragon, which would be the ultimate 'flying'.

I firmly believe there is something trapped in the wall which will save Jon form his mishap at the end of ADwD. Like a dragon, frozen in the ice and just waiting for something to wake it up to fight the walkers.

If Jon ends up being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna then he will def ride a dragon. How is he going to find out who his parents are though? I mean how would it become widespread knowledge through westeros that he is the heir to the iron throne?

Also here is a question i am really wondering about......Does the winter come to all of Essos as well as Westeros? will the dothraki sea and Quarth and red waste all be covered in snow as well? and if not then why dont more people from westeros have winter homes across the sea? why would they all stay in westeros under 40 ft of snow or whatever? and what kind of planet only snows on 1 continent for several years? wouldn't that climate change affect the rest of the world?

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

SNIP...

Also here is a question i am really wondering about......Does the winter come to all of Essos as well as Westeros? will the dothraki sea and Quarth and red waste all be covered in snow as well? and if not then why dont more people from westeros have winter homes across the sea? why would they all stay in westeros under 40 ft of snow or whatever? and what kind of planet only snows on 1 continent for several years? wouldn't that climate change affect the rest of the world?

Well apparently winter comes to Essos as well, Tycho the Iron Banker comments that the canals in Braavos were already frosting over when he departed for Westeros.

Also as the AA reborn prophecy is about a fire temple and priest, then the "Long Night" must have been present in Essos as well.

[Sun]

I subscribe to the theory that Jon is the dragon and his 3 heads are Jon Snow, Jon Stark, and Jon Targaryen.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Well apparently winter comes to Essos as well, Tycho the Iron Banker comments that the canals in Braavos were already frosting over when he departed for Westeros.

Also as the AA reborn prophecy is about a fire temple and priest, then the "Long Night" must have been present in Essos as well.

Ok that makes sense, I had forgotten he said that about the rivers freezing. I wonder if the white walkers have ever crossed the ocean? I mean do they threaten the whole planet or just the one continent? did 'the Long night' have anything to do with the 'doom of valyria'?

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Ok that makes sense, I had forgotten he said that about the rivers freezing. I wonder if the white walkers have ever crossed the ocean? I mean do they threaten the whole planet or just the one continent? did 'the Long night' have anything to do with the 'doom of valyria'?

i don't believe the two are related as IIRC the story regarding "the doom" stated that ships coming into port (trading ships or what have you) found the island ablaze and a smoking sea. It sounds like an isolated incident, but of course they could be connected somehow. Just read the wiki on the doom and it occured approx a century before the Targ conquering of Westeros, so that wouldn't fit into the timeframe of the Long Night, or Age of Heroes.

As to your question of whether or not the WW's have come to Essos during the long night I would say yes to that and reference the AA reborn tale once again. Based on the story it seems that AA was a fire temple priest, or at least resides in a fire temple (IIRC), which suggests they were plauged in Essos by the Long Night and the Others (as it would seem red god has never found a following in Westeros).

[The Great Cornholio!]

I think this is entirely possible, and a huge danger to Dany and whoever else rides the other dragons. Bloodraven is also a possibility. A warg can effectively negate any bonding that has been done by a dragon horn, since the mind is no longer the dragon's.

No they didn't. Valyrians bound their dragons with sorcery & dragon horns, not through a natural ability/affinity.

Yeah but this is the explanation we get from people who know nothing about it. It sounds more like legend than anything else.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

you consider 2, or 3 targs a lot? It seems like a pretty big coincidence that the targs killed by the disease were in line for the throne, along with the hand of the king...

In any case Viserys only claims they have immunity from common afflictions/sicknesses, perhaps not from something like "the great spring sickness". The fact that Dany can never remember getting sick or having a fever is pretty telling, not to mention Tyrion's miraculous escape from greyscale.

I know Targs have burnt to death before (dragon's fire even burnt dany a little) which is why I put forth a fire "resistance" rather than "immunity" for true blooded, or otherwise special Targs.

Anyways I knew we'd get way off Topic if we got into this discussion. If you want to see points and arguments for this line of thought chk out my discussions on the A+J=T thread in the ADwD section.

Dany is the only targaryen or person in the history of ASOIAF to be totally immune to sickness and fire. The rest of the targaryens are just regular ppl who breed dragons.

[lady m]

Dany is the only targaryen or person in the history of ASOIAF to be totally immune to sickness and fire. The rest of the targaryens are just regular ppl who breed dragons.

She's both got healing burns and GRRM says himself she's not immune to fire, and gets sick in her last chapter. She's just like her relatives and wants to believe the Targ legends.