The Tower of Joy Battle, not as we are led to believe?

[Lord Damian]

This has pretty much nothing to do with the "R+L=J" stuff. This has to do with the fight (if there really was a fight) and how and why it went down. The official story is that Rheagar kidnapped Lyanna Stark in some Lust fit and raped her to the point she bled to death over a period of time. Ok, Not only that, but Rheagar supposedly left 3 Kingsguards there to make sure that his sex toy did not get away (supposedly after the fighting he could rape her some more). This seem to be what late King Robert Baratheon thought and never seemed to question it. He was the real "lord Oaf" in my opinion. So, was Lyanna willing and happy to be with Rheagar? If so, could she not have told the Kingsguard to let her brother in to see her as there was no need for bloodshed? If Rheagar had entered a polygamist marriage with Lyanna, that would have made her a princess, she could have commanded the Kingsgards to let Ned come to her. So, why the hell did there have to be a fight? this does not make a damn bit of sense. Please, everyone, lets clarify this. I am curious as to how exactly it went down from the moment Ned and Co. rode up, whether Lyanna could hear them approach, or surely the Kingsguards would have known who Ned was and sent to Lyanna to see if she wanted to see him? Or, is this whole thing not as it seems and there is not 8 bodies buried in Dorne but empty tombs?

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

They were likely ordered not to let anybody enter and considering Ned was a rebel and traitor the kings guard wouldn't just let him be.

The questionable part is whether Lyanna went willingly which would seem really odd.

[DannySpud]

I imagine Ned was specifically named as someone to not let in considering he and Rob started a war to get her back.

[Lord Damian]

They were likely ordered not to let anybody enter and considering Ned was a rebel and traitor the kings guard wouldn't just let him be.

The questionable part is whether Lyanna went willingly which would seem really odd.

Yes, but it seems like truly jack ass behavior of the Kingsguard to not facilitate some dialogue with Lyanna and her own brother. Also, Kingsguard only guard royalty so, it is obvious, if an "heir or heirs" was potentially born there of Lyanna and Rheagar, then they were where they needed to be.

[Lion of Judah]

You bring up an interesting point which I myself have pondered before. Why would Rhaegar need 3 members of the KG to protect a woman he kidnapped and raped. If rape was the objective then it was complete, let her go. When Ned arrived Lyanna didn't seem to be in a condition to get up and let the KG know to allow her brother in. She also wasn't expecting Ned to show up so it's not as though she could let the KG know in advance. The KG, I presume knew the truth of what took place and they were protecting Lyanna at all cost, they knew nothing about Ned other than he was a rebel and a Stark.

[The Mountain That Posts]

Once the war actually happened, Lyanna went from being Rhaegar's "toy" or love interest to being both that AND a hostage. (both the sister to Lord Eddard Stark AND Lord Robert Baratheon's "one true love", she held a shitload of value as a hostage)

Thankfully, due to her being R's love, they never carried out executing her despite the threat of Eddard/Robert. She was a hostage, but the threats were ultimately empty.

As to the battle itself, I think that went down exactly as Eddard remembers it. They arrived, and then the fight happened and only Ned and Howland Reed walked away.

[Dr. Pepper]

I don't think there is anything mysterious or suspicious bout what happened at the Tower of Joy. Ned offers us a dream-like sequence of events when he's feverish and asleep but he also confirms what happens when he's awake and lucid. Ten fought, two survived. Eight were buried with the stones from the tower. Lyanna's bones were brought back to Winterfell.

[Amanda Lannister]

I don't think there is anything mysterious or suspicious bout what happened at the Tower of Joy. Ned offers us a dream-like sequence of events when he's feverish and asleep but he also confirms what happens when he's awake and lucid. Ten fought, two survived. Eight were buried with the stones from the tower. Lyanna's bones were brought back to Winterfell.

Agreed.

There are a billion R+L=J threads. And although the OP was technically about the "fighting" I don't really see anything suspicious about it. Rhaegar in his fascination with Summerhall had learned of his role in the PWWP. He found out he had to become a warrior. Became one, Tourney at Harrenhall started the Lyanna issue. Knows that he must have one more child with Lyanna to make the PWWP. Won Lyanna over, she went with him willingly, stays at TOJ, Ned not knowing the entire story goes in to "rescue" his sister. Survives only with Howland Reed, Gets to Lyanna just in time for him to promise, see her die, and take Jon.

[Usrnmhsnomning]

Why did he need a bastard child with Lyanna when his actual wife could still have children?

[Techelles]

Why did he need a bastard child with Lyanna when his actual wife could still have children?

Elia couldn't have any more children. Aegon was extremely hard on her, and the maesters told her that another pregnancy would be too dangerous. I believe we know this from The Griffin Reborn chapter.

[Amanda Lannister]

Elia couldn't have any more children. Aegon was extremely hard on her, and the maesters told her that another pregnancy would be too dangerous. I believe we know this from The Griffin Reborn chapter.

:agree:

Why did he need a bastard child with Lyanna when his actual wife could still have children?

Yes it is said that Elia almost died in childbirth and was told that if she attempted again she would die. Rhaegar knew that he would have to have 3 children. Also, another Fire/Ice reference. And I believe that the jury is still out on Jon's alleged "bastardry". There are ways..... read any R+L=J thread for more in depth posts.

[Usrnmhsnomning]

Yes it is said that Elia almost died in childbirth and was told that if she attempted again she would die. Rhaegar knew that he would have to have 3 children. Also, another Fire/Ice reference. And I believe that the jury is still out on Jon's alleged "bastardry". There are ways..... read any R+L=J thread for more in depth posts.

I don't believe Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. I thought that in Danys dream Rhaegar said Aegon was the PTWP and that his song was of ice and fire? I still don't understand how Rhaegar "knew" he had to have a child with Lyanna either.

[Ygrain]

Once the war actually happened, Lyanna went from being Rhaegar's "toy" or love interest to being both that AND a hostage. (both the sister to Lord Eddard Stark AND Lord Robert Baratheon's "one true love", she held a shitload of value as a hostage)

Thankfully, due to her being R's love, they never carried out executing her despite the threat of Eddard/Robert. She was a hostage, but the threats were ultimately empty.

There is no textual evidence suggesting that Lyanna was ever considered, or used, as a hostage. Her hiding at ToJ the whole Rebellion might well be so that she did NOT become a hostage, both against her brother and Robert as well as against Rhaegar.

Why did he need a bastard child with Lyanna when his actual wife could still have children?

See above. Plus, if he wanted to emulate Aegon and have the three heads, he wouldn't need a bastard but a trueborn Targ. A bastard is not a dragon.

The behaviour of the KG makes sense if Jon is trueborn (via polygamous marriage, for which there are precedents): as Rhaegar's remaining heir, his life is in imminent danger from Robert and the Lannisters. The KG protect him by not letting his existence become known, i.e. they must not let anyone see neither Jon nor Lyanna, so as not to find out that she has given birth. Ned Stark is a rebel lord and the best friend of the guy who condoned the murder of Rhaegar's children; he s also honour-bound to reveal the existence of a new Targ heir to his new king. Lyanna herself wasn't sure if he would grant her what she wanted from him; the KG couldn't take any risks. Lyanna's wish/order as the prince's wife couldn't override their primary duty to protect the king.

[g.o.d]

KGs were following crown prince's orders. It didn't matter if it was Ned or some other rebelious lord who showed up in front of them. They were given orders to protect Lyanna and most likely Rhaegar's son. That was all that mattered to them.

[Old Man Aegon]

The Kingsguard vow of protecting the king stops them from letting a rebell and friend of Robert the dragonbutcher get too close to the infant king.

Eddard would not leave without Lyanna, she would not leave without her child and the kingsguard are not about to let a rebell take the king without a fight.

[Ser Creighton]

You forgot the question of what were they doing there to begin with? Guy is a prince and that was the best he could do.

Why a fight? Well who knows, it does not make a lot of sense. How did Ned find them why did he only go with 6 men? Who were they protecting Lyanna from?

Don't look for black and white answers or one answer. As we know from the books Whent and Dayne were with Rhaegar fro mthe begining. Hightower finds them in order to send Rhaegar back to his father to lead the army. Explain why Hightower could not lead the army? So he finds them and made a deal to go back as long as Hightower stayed there. Hightower agreed. Why? There was only one king at that point and Dayne, Whent and Hightower were not listening to him all that well were they?

Why take her to begin with? A love story? And this was the best plan they had? Why not go back as soon as Brandon is captured, or after he is killed and try and stop the war?

If your asking why no matter how you look at it, it does not make a whole lot of sense. That's because it does not make a whole lot of sense.

Why fight? Maybe they just did not want to bend the knee. Their king was dead and they could care less about Ned and Robert. No matter what happened it's not like they did a great Job, Aerys is dead, Rheagar is dead, Elia is dead, Aegon and his sister are dead, Lyanna is dead and they are dead.

None of them seemed to have a problem ignoring Aerys II, none of them seemed to care about Elia and her kids. Oh Lyanna is special she may be pregnant with Jon, let only protect him even though he is not born yet and there is the entire family to consider.

Maybe she was abducted, and raped and pregnant and maybe Rhaegar thought he was fulfilling a prophecy about the dragon having three heads. So he kept her because he wanted that baby. Clearly the guy had planning issues if that was his best runaway/abduction plan.

Maybe it was love and Lyanna was desperate to be a second wife and Rhaegar was desperate for a 14 year old girl and did not care about his wife who he just had a kid with. Neither one cared about anyone or anything. Rhaegar abandons his wife and children one of whom he thinks is the Prince that was promised. Lyanna hears about her brother and fathers death and is like "ahahahahaha, free at last suckers." They found this cute fixer upper tower in the princes pass and started a sitcom, my three Kings guard or was it, I love Lyanna?

Protect Lyanna from Ned? Yeah right she had been with them for a year, what she never mentioned her family? Plus what if they had won. "It's okay Lyanna Ned is dead, we got him." "Lets just stay out here at this tower. Oh wiat your dying. And your dead. So ummmm do we just stay here? I mean we were told to stay here so like do we just stay here?"

[Ser Creighton]

I don't believe Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. I thought that in Danys dream Rhaegar said Aegon was the PTWP and that his song was of ice and fire? I still don't understand how Rhaegar "knew" he had to have a child with Lyanna either.

No matter what happens this is all going to go back to intersecting prophecies. Prophecies that connect together. Until then it's just fan speculation. Some want R+L=J so they have their theory and somehow a wedding and love story got inter mixed, because some people want Jon to be the king. Other are more open to mixed ideas and alternative theories to explore. Until it's in the books it's all just theory, some are good, some are fun, some are crazy.

I'll tell you one thing, the explanation no matter what, had better be good, cause the story itself has more holes in it then Swiss cheese, that's why you can come up with so many theories. Or as some will tell you they have totally figured it out, and it can only be this. I say leave your options open, Martin will find a way to surprise the fans.

Worst surprise ever.

Reed: Hang on Jon I got you, I got you.

Jon: Please, before it's to late for me, who, who was my mother.

Reed: Jon, I met your mother at a tourney, her name was, her name was... "snikt"

At that moment a crystal like sword was shoved through the back of Reeds head through his mouth and into Jons eye. Jon died there that day, the world fell and he never found out who his parents were. The End.

[Ser Creighton]

Alternative theory for Rhaegar, he was the worlds worst planner.

Rhaegar while leaving the tower

Rhaegar: Don't worry guys I have a plan

Whent: It was one of your plans that got us into this genius!

Dayne: Lyanna, we are totally dead aren't we

Lyanna: Oh yeah we are screwed, the genius is at work again

Rhaegars last words while marching to the trident

Rhaegar; Don't worry men, we have the numbers, the high ground and my plan

At which point the troops began to openly cry.

[Techelles]

No matter what happens this is all going to go back to intersecting prophecies. Prophecies that connect together. Until then it's just fan speculation. Some want R+L=J so they have their theory and somehow a wedding and love story got inter mixed, because some people want Jon to be the king. Other are more open to mixed ideas and alternative theories to explore. Until it's in the books it's all just theory, some are good, some are fun, some are crazy.

I guess the notions of narrative consistency and deliberate, well-crafted storytelling mean more to some than others.

[Usrnmhsnomning]

There is no textual evidence suggesting that Lyanna was ever considered, or used, as a hostage. Her hiding at ToJ the whole Rebellion might well be so that she did NOT become a hostage, both against her brother and Robert as well as against Rhaegar.

Other than Robert saying so? Brandons accusations? Hmm. But with the bolded in mind;

See above. Plus, if he wanted to emulate Aegon and have the three heads, he wouldn't need a bastard but a trueborn Targ. A bastard is not a dragon.

The behaviour of the KG makes sense if Jon is trueborn (via polygamous marriage, for which there are precedents): as Rhaegar's remaining heir, his life is in imminent danger from Robert and the Lannisters. The KG protect him by not letting his existence become known, i.e. they must not let anyone see neither Jon nor Lyanna, so as not to find out that she has given birth. Ned Stark is a rebel lord and the best friend of the guy who condoned the murder of Rhaegar's children; he s also honour-bound to reveal the existence of a new Targ heir to his new king. Lyanna herself wasn't sure if he would grant her what she wanted from him; the KG couldn't take any risks. Lyanna's wish/order as the prince's wife couldn't override their primary duty to protect the king.

Literally nothing here has textual evidence; it's just opinion drawn from the text.