The Tower of Joy Battle, not as we are led to believe?

[Beric Zoolander]

It's interesting to try and interpret why the three arguably best members of the KG are kept back to guard that tower to the bitter end.

ON THE ONE HAND look at how the KG is used in other circumstances especially by the Lannisters where they not only take orders from the King, but from the hand, from the queen, and protect all manner of people for all manners of reasons. Beyond that in certain instances they even forget their first duty (in the instance of Tommen for ex.) Also I think it was Selmy who mentioned (or someone else) that KG throughout the history were used in various ways, not always to defend just the king, but queens, family, even bastards and mistresses.

My argument being that perhaps he cared about Lyanna just that much to keep them there. For no greater reason than just that. Who is to say these members are THAT much different than the current KG, and after all aren't they just all following orders.

ON THE OTHER HAND, looking at how Ned describes the encounter

“I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.

“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.

“When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

“I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell andRedwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”

“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

Its basically a given that if those three had been at any of these major turning points in the rebellion that it all would have gone differently. Which then goes to infer that whatever is in this tower, Lyanna or otherwise is more important that anything else in the realm.

[DreamSongs]

:agree:

[UVA]

There are many blind spots in R+L=J, but the overall theory is strong because all the broad strokes are consistent with the facts that we do have; it explains the behavior of all the characters involved; and it is coheres with the books' multiplicity of clues scattered throughout the story (ex: blue flower on a wall of ice). When I see another hypothesis that can do this, I'll call it a theory and admit the possibility.

Obviously no one is certain of many of the details. That goes without saying. When we go about filling in the blanks, we're only trying to suggest logical possibilities that fit with the facts. And I'll take that over random spitballing any day.

Incidentally, I do find it very telling that many of these blanks cannot break the case for R+L=J no matter how they are filled in.

Yes, and it's considering all of these circumstantial clues as a totality that builds such a strong case for this theory. I have yet to read any alternative interpretation that reasonably contradicts it. I grant that some of the blanks (the hows and the whys) are largely explained by fan wish fulfillment but the essential case for R+L=J (after five books) is not, rather it's the most reasonable interpretation.

OP: I can't argue for or against the position that Lyanna was a hostage because that answer largely depends on knowing the nature of her relationship with Rhaegar. I don't see evidence that proves she was there against her will, however. That said, I tend to think that the KG stayed and fought because they were upholding their vow to obey Rhaegar's orders to guard/protect Lyanna. (I'm not convinced, although I vacillate a lot about this issue, that the KG presence proves without a doubt that Jon is legitimate and they were upholding their primary directive to guard the new Targaryen king.) It's reasonable to assume that the KG considered Ned, a rebel leader and his crew a hostile force, particularly in light of the rebel's destruction of Rhaegar's family in King's Landing. And a dying Lyanna was not in any condition physically to intervene, let alone know what was going down somewhere outside.

[KOM]

The bigger mystery is how Ned + Howland best Dayne. Speculation: Howland with a net.

[Dr. Pepper]

The bigger mystery is how Ned + Howland best Dayne. Speculation: Howland with a net.

That's what I presume. Meera says her father taught her to fight and she was able to subdue a direwolf with her net and frogspear. Considering reports of Arthur's fighting prowess, I think only unconventional methods would have worked against him.

[Trident full of Dogs]

I don't think Lyanna was in ToJ I think it was Ashara Dayne

[redviper9]

<snip>

Well, I would hope Daemon Blackfyre had Targaryen features, considering that both of his parents were Targaryens. Regarding Shiera Seastar, her mother was from Lys, where, as we're told repeatedly throughout the books, the Valyrian/Targaryen features -- silver-blonde hair, purple eyes -- remain common.

While the Great Bastards had some Targaryen features, something we're told throughout ASoIaF and the Dunk & Egg novellas is that in the children of Targaryen/non-Targaryen couples, the Targaryen features often yield (for lack of a better term) to those of the non-Targaryen. As I believe Dr. Pepper pointed out in an earlier post, Rhaenys seems to have inherited none of Rhaegar's features. Baelor Breakspear took after his Dornish mother. And none of the current Martells seem to have any Targaryen features; I know that it's been some time since the first Daenerys, but still, the Martells do have Targaryen blood. So, given how GRRM has constructed the workings of Targaryen/non-Targaryen children, Jon taking completely after the Starks -- if he is indeed Rhaegar's and Lyanna's son -- isn't that out of the ordinary.

I don't think Lyanna was in ToJ I think it was Ashara Dayne

So Ned's been lying to himself in his thoughts all these years?

[Trident full of Dogs]

So Ned's been lying to himself in his thoughts all these years?

We only have access to his dream you know... Lyanna is never shown in Tower of Joy she is just in the same dream ( the one with the 3 KG and a tower in Dorne).

But don't take me seriously. Pretty much everything I root for or think I guessed right is usually wrong. In pretty much all fandoms I have ever been to. And strangely, I don't give up. I love my clever idea thar Lyanna was somewhere else with Mance Rayder!

And I also think the "Eight Cairns" thing is BS. Why stress it was 8 cairns, we can count: 3 dead KG, 5 dead Ned's friends. I think the number 8 is stressed because in truth there are not 8 people buried there, but 9 (maybe Arthur Dayne and Ashara Dayne in the same cairn) or one of them is empty.

I'm editing this to say no, Lyanna and Mance is not a joke.

[redviper9]

We only have access to his dream.you know... Lyanna is never shown in Towerof Joy she is just in the same dream ( the one with the 3 KG and thw tower in Dorne).

But don't take me seriously. Prerty much everything I root for or think I guessed right is usually wrong. In pretty much all fandoms I have ever been to. And strangely, I don't give up. I love my clever idea thar Lyanna was somewhere else with Mance Rayder!

It's actually not just his dream; Ned thinks to himself many times about Lyanna's "bed of blood" and the promises he made at the Tower of Joy. Lady Dustin confirms that it was Lyanna's bones Ned returned with. And we also know from a number of people (Ned Dayne, Cersei, Barristan Selmy) that Ashara was at Starfall and received Dawn from Ned.

And while I love me some Mance -- be still, my beating heart -- as others and I have pointed out in other threads, the timeline does not work in order for him to have been involved in the events of Robert's Rebellion...though I'm sure he'd write an awesome song about them.

[Sasha Steelsong]

The trick is that at the time Aerys died, Rhaegar's son (if indeed that's what Jon is) may not even have been born yet.

There's no way to know when Jon was born. However, the fact that Lyanna's room smelled like blood when Ned showed up suggests to me that Jon was, in fact, born well after Aerys died. Either that blood was complications of childbirth... or you have to invent some medical condition for her that would resulted in such sustained bleeding that the whole room would smell like blood long after Jon was born.

This being the case, Viserys was the king the instant Aerys died, and until such time as Jon was born.

And any theory in which the Kingsguard are required to defend the current king -- making up their own orders to go to him, in flat contradiction of GRRM who has said outright they don't make up their own orders -- also requires the Kingsguard to move to defend Viserys -- not wait around for a baby to be born and then look between its legs to see what sex it is.

Sorry but no. Historical precedent in the real world says it worked quite differently. Basically when a king dies and the pregnant queen might be carrying an heir, they wait for the child to be born and then the crown would officially pass. It happened in France a couple of times (and France's succession was male only like the Targs) and also in Spain, basically a regent was appointed until the child was born and then if the child was a boy he was named king, if born a girl, the next male down the line would get the crown.

So no, Viserys was never king. And yes the KG would wait to find out what sex the child was because if they all left for Dragonstone and it turned out that the child was a boy they would have left their king unprotected. The fact that after Jon was born no one left for Dragonstone also helps support the point that he was legitimate, because if not then you're right and the KG should have gone to Dragonstone.

[Sasha Steelsong]

You, sir, are spot-on.

They also typically haven't even researched their own argument particularly well.

For instance, you will find at the beginning of each instance of the R+L=J thread this text:

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?

...Many of the Great Bastards did not have Valyrian features.

This is completely misinformed. This genetic evidence actually supports the idea that Jon is not a Targ.

There were four Great Bastards. Bittersteel had purple eyes (a Targ trait). Shiera had silver-gold hair (a Targ trait). Daemon had the complete Targ package (all traits). And Bloodraven was an albino, which hardly counts for purposes of analysis.

The simple fact is that 75% of the Great Bastards had at least one Targ trait. And as for Baelor Breakspear, his eye color is never specified. Going by the Great Bastards, we would expect Jon to have at least one Targ trait... unless, of course, he is not a Targaryen.

If the R+L=J camp is so misinformed as to be wrong about this, how can I possibly take them seriously as analysts?

Well they are more informed as to the products of non-Targ + Targ parents than you seem to be. Rhaenys, Rhaegar's daughter and first born, looked completely Dornish. Not a trace of Targ features at all. But she was definitely a Targ. Even if your theory was right (which it isn't), there was still a 25% chance that the child would have no Targ features, so even by your own standards Jon could still be a Targ. You should perhaps have a closer look at your own reasoning before disparaging others.

[Trident full of Dogs]

It's actually not just his dream; Ned thinks to himself many times about Lyanna's "bed of blood" and the promises he made at the Tower of Joy. Lady Dustin confirms that it was Lyanna's bones Ned returned with. And we also know from a number of people (Ned Dayne, Cersei, Barristan Selmy) that Ashara was at Starfall and received Dawn from Ned.

And while I love me some Mance -- be still, my beating heart -- as others and I have pointed out in other threads, the timeline does not work in order for him to have been involved in the events of Robert's Rebellion...though I'm sure he'd write an awesome song about them.

Har! I love Mance too.

Just pointing out, bones could be anyone's bones, probably they are Lyanna's but she could have died elsewhere.

Lyanna is never literally said to be in ToJ in ANY phrasing whatsoever. We hear Rhaegar kidnapped her, we hear she died amongst blood and roses, Ned was with her when she died. But Ned never said she was in there. I might be expecting too much in terms of "And then Ned enrered the tower, climbed up the stairs and found his sister dying after giving birth to little Jon".

I agree R + L is the most plausible option though. Just like to keep my mind open and besides Mance could chew and spit Rhaegar anytime in terms of awesomeness.

Sorry this was a bit off topic. About the battle and corpses I always found it suspicious Ned didn't bother taking Arthur's bones to Ashara. He's supposed to have bothered to take Dawn to Starfall but not Dayne's bones???? And why didn't he take the Dustin guy's bones.to his wife (forgot his name). He took the horse but not the bones???? Pretty unsensitive Ned!

That's why I think something doesn't fit wih the 8 Cairns thing. If Ned had done the right thing he'd never had built any cairns to bury those guys, he'd sent their bones back to their families. Bones seem to be very important in Westeros, even the FREYS for godssakes returned Wendel's bones back to Lord Manderley.

[Wun Wun's Wife]

I love me some Mance as well, and in my personal land of crackpottery, I would love it if Mance knew who Jon's mother was, and was the one who told him. However, I would rather see Howland Reed meet Jon. (Or meet anyone for that matter!)

The fight in question has always befuddled me a bit as well - it seems unnecessary, even though I do concede that the KG would still view Ned as a dangerous threat. I guess if he's the best friend of someone who is bloodthirsty for Targaryens, would it matter that a Targaryen was also his nephew?

Rhaegar running off with Lyanna and ignoring the war just seems stupid... Lyanna was a headstrong 15-year-old girl, but Rhaegar was the married crown prince.... I don't think he raped her and signs and symbols seem to indicate that they did marry secretly and that Jon is their son... but still... he was stupid to just run off with her the way he did and I'm not sure how it could make sense, prophesy or no, it was a terrible way to go about doing things.

Other than my own opinions, I guess the thoughts I can offer are that I sort of think the three members of the KG were staying there because of Rhaegar's plan to usurp his father... Rhaegar would need to win the KG to his side in order to either convince his father to abdicate, or kill him. Rhaegar told Jaime that he was going to call a council after he returned from the Trident... I'm thinking he might have been making plans with Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower, Oswell Whent, over at the ToJ.

Another thought I had, stemming from someone's comment earlier about how perhaps Ned might have seen Lyanna prior to the battle at the ToJ, is that perhaps Ashara Dayne led them to the TOJ and might have let him in to see Lyanna dying, then, after seeing Lyanna, Ned and his men might have gone ballistic against the KG (and they perhaps wanted to take Lyanna's child away). Had Ashara been disgraced at Harrenhal and had a stillborn, it would have been a year prior to the TOJ, and she might very well have been at King's Landing when Ned arrived after Jaime killed Aerys, and Elia, Rhaenys and (f)Aegon were murdered. Ashara might have seen Ned's reaction to Elia and the children's murder and decided to tell him where her brother and the KG were hiding out with Lyanna. I'm not sure how this would fit in with Ned lifting the siege at Storm's End rather than going directly to Lyanna because it makes no sense for Ashara to be at Storm's End, but Ashara does seem the most likely informant, to me.

[Ygrain]

Sorry this was a bit off topic. About the battle and corpses I always found it suspicious Ned didn't bother taking Arthur's bones to Ashara. He's supposed to have bothered to take Dawn to Starfall but not Dayne's bones???? And why didn't he take the Dustin guy's bones.to his wife (forgot his name). He took the horse but not the bones???? Pretty unsensitive Ned!

I believe it had a lot to do with the logistic problem of defleshing a fully grown up male and lack of wood and time to make pyres, that all in the warm shoutern climate.

[Trident full of Dogs]

I believe it had a lot to do with the logistic problem of defleshing a fully grown up male and lack of wood and time to make pyres, that all in the warm shoutern climate.

He us supposed to have brought Lyana's bones so he probably did all those things to his own sister... It could have been done to all the othr IMO.

[Ygrain]

He us supposed to have brought Lyana's bones so he probably did all those things to his own sister... It could have been done to all the othr IMO.

To burn completely a single body, you need a lot of wood. While it shouldn't be much of a problem to gather enough wood (use e.g. the furniture etc.) to burn one slim girl, cremating eight grown up males is something totally different.

[Lord Damian]

I have read the responses and most everyone agrees that the said people that died there DID DIE THERE. well, i am sure that Lyanna had a midwife or wetnurse. Ashara Dayne? Septa Lamore? an anonymous woman or women? Then, they would all have to be sworn to secrecy or offered payment to leave Westeros hence they whitnessed sensative happenings. Am I right? Lets say the fighting is settled. i doubt that Rheagar and the 3 kingsguards would have left Lyanna by herself about to or just did give birth to a child with no one to help her. This person could easily stick their head out the window and yell to the kingsguard or taken a message etc.. I suspect it was Ashara Dayne. It would have to be someone the Kingsguards knew and Rheagar could trust. Thus Ser Arthur's own sister was the midwife. This is leaving my original topic but I am more convinced that Septa Lamore might very well be Ashara Dayne. If That is correct, then Aegon is ????. I am very open to Jon being one of twins or ... triplets?

[zodiarkslayer]

Ygrain, on 26 February 2013 - 06:47 AM, said:

I believe it had a lot to do with the logistic problem of defleshing a fully grown up male and lack of wood and time to make pyres, that all in the warm shoutern climate.

It is more likely he had help. Say Howland Reed. Besides "bones" can also be read as remains. Ned and Reed could have built a coffin for Lyanna rather quickly. You'd only need a bit of wood and some nails or rope. The coffin could be dragged by a horse. But nine Coffins is a bit much for a horse. And even nine horses wouldn't do, when there are only two riders. I think thats the real problem.

Considering the Person of Arthur Dayne: I don't think he would loose to anyone but Rhaegar (did he do that on purpose?). Not even Ned and six of his Bannermen would stand a chance. Remember what Jaime said about him to Loras Tyrell and his men:

"I learned from Ser Arthur Dayne , the sword of the morning, who could have slain all five of you with his left hand while he was taking a piss with his right". SoS 67

Quite convincing... And By Ned's own admission:

"The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who would have killed me but for Howland Reed." CoK 21

This Quote says nowhere, that Reed actually killed Dayne in a fight. It might just mean that Reed talked Dayne to stop attacking, or so.

[King of Hats]

This Quote says nowhere, that Reed actually killed Dayne in a fight. It might just mean that Reed talked Dayne to stop attacking, or so.

I have considered that before, and was quite convinced at one point, but there is no evidence either way. I mainly want it to be the case, because I want Dayne to still play a part in the story and he has a role in a few crackpots of mine

[Ygrain]

It is more likely he had help. Say Howland Reed. Besides "bones" can also be read as remains. Ned and Reed could have built a coffin for Lyanna rather quickly. You'd only need a bit of wood and some nails or rope. The coffin could be dragged by a horse. But nine Coffins is a bit much for a horse. And even nine horses wouldn't do, when there are only two riders. I think thats the real problem.

You don't want me to go into the details of transporting a wooden coffin for days and weeks in warm climate. You just don't. Believe me.

Besides, we have Catelyn seeing Ned's actual bones, and Barristan pondering how to deflesh Quentyn's bones, and that all for that single particular purpose: not to transport decomposing flesh.