The Tower of Joy Battle, not as we are led to believe?

[kephv]

I have considered that before, and was quite convinced at one point, but there is no evidence either way. I mainly want it to be the case, because I want Dayne to still play a part in the story and he has a role in a few crackpots of mine

There's quite a few hints though of how unstoppable Dayne was (confirmed by Jaime and Ned) and how weak Howland was -- quite a bit is made of both points (one hint, along with others). Coupled with the fact that it's never quite explained what went on there and Ned's avoiding of it, a pretty good case can be made for him being alive -- especially when one considers Jon and the absolute impossibility of the realm at large accepting R+L=J. There's a few threads on this around here if you search for it.

[Ser Creighton]

We only have access to his dream you know... Lyanna is never shown in Tower of Joy she is just in the same dream ( the one with the 3 KG and a tower in Dorne).

But don't take me seriously. Pretty much everything I root for or think I guessed right is usually wrong. In pretty much all fandoms I have ever been to. And strangely, I don't give up. I love my clever idea thar Lyanna was somewhere else with Mance Rayder!

And I also think the "Eight Cairns" thing is BS. Why stress it was 8 cairns, we can count: 3 dead KG, 5 dead Ned's friends. I think the number 8 is stressed because in truth there are not 8 people buried there, but 9 (maybe Arthur Dayne and Ashara Dayne in the same cairn) or one of them is empty.

I'm editing this to say no, Lyanna and Mance is not a joke.

You have access to his words, pg 59 hard cover AGoT, in which he openly talks about his last moments with Lyanna. In which he actually states the promise she asked and he kept. A page many fans of a theory to often forget in favor of a fevered dream Martin himself warns against.

And people who use there own theories to explain away other theories and then claim other theories can't be right because they are theories. R+L=j theory is based on nothing but assumption. Use facts from the book and they calim those facts don't count because they are POV. The first part of the Theory assumes Rhaegar and lyanna are in love. They ignore the fact that this guy wo was so in love had no problem sleeping with his wife and fathering another child by her in 282 and that he was at KL then and not off havng some wild romance with Lyanna. They ignore the fact that the only known time Rhaegar was around Lyanna was at HH when she was 14 in 281 but they assume they spent a lot of time together after that, even though nothing in the books implies this and they basically ignore anything they don't like in order to try and make a fantasy love story happen that has now moved into Lyanna and Rhaegar getting married.

There is no question that R+L=J, I have zero problem with that theory, but making up love stories and weddins and trying to tie them to a decent theory is ruining the theory for me. I actually used to believe until I saw how the built the theory and much of the actual facts they omit in favor of assumption. The facts actually put it togther better but then you don't get a love story or a wedding. As soon as the wedding poped up I had to drop the whole thing into crackpot land. They have gotten to the point where there theory has become fact or at least that is how they see it who cares what is in the books.

You want to know what happened at the tower, Read page 59 Eddards chapter AGoT. It's pretty cut and dry. It's the worst memory of Neds life, the name is Ironic, and nothing good ever happened at that place. Blood and roses, that's all that place is, blood and roses. The man went catatonic, do you know what kind of hell that takes to do that to a person? And poor Lyanna all she wanted to do was be buried beside her father and brother. She is dying and that is her final wish and it is in the book. That's three Stark lives the Targs destroyed, why do you think Ned layed them all together? Not on a hill or with Rhaegar, but with the people she really loved.

[gldnegle]

You have access to his words, pg 59 hard cover AGoT, in which he openly talks about his last moments with Lyanna. In which he actually states the promise she asked and he kept. A page many fans of a theory to often forget in favor of a fevered dream Martin himself warns against.

And people who use there own theories to explain away other theories and then claim other theories can't be right because they are theories. R+L=j theory is based on nothing but assumption. Use facts from the book and they calim those facts don't count because they are POV. The first part of the Theory assumes Rhaegar and lyanna are in love. They ignore the fact that this guy wo was so in love had no problem sleeping with his wife and fathering another child by her in 282 and that he was at KL then and not off havng some wild romance with Lyanna. They ignore the fact that the only known time Rhaegar was around Lyanna was at HH when she was 14 in 281 but they assume they spent a lot of time together after that, even though nothing in the books implies this and they basically ignore anything they don't like in order to try and make a fantasy love story happen that has now moved into Lyanna and Rhaegar getting married.

There is no question that R+L=J, I have zero problem with that theory, but making up love stories and weddins and trying to tie them to a decent theory is ruining the theory for me. I actually used to believe until I saw how the built the theory and much of the actual facts they omit in favor of assumption. The facts actually put it togther better but then you don't get a love story or a wedding. As soon as the wedding poped up I had to drop the whole thing into crackpot land. They have gotten to the point where there theory has become fact or at least that is how they see it who cares what is in the books.

You want to know what happened at the tower, Read page 59 Eddards chapter AGoT. It's pretty cut and dry. It's the worst memory of Neds life, the name is Ironic, and nothing good ever happened at that place. Blood and roses, that's all that place is, blood and roses. The man went catatonic, do you know what kind of hell that takes to do that to a person? And poor Lyanna all she wanted to do was be buried beside her father and brother. She is dying and that is her final wish and it is in the book. That's three Stark lives the Targs destroyed, why do you think Ned layed them all together? Not on a hill or with Rhaegar, but with the people she really loved.

:agree:

[Ygrain]

You have access to his words, pg 59 hard cover AGoT, in which he openly talks about his last moments with Lyanna. In which he actually states the promise she asked and he kept. A page many fans of a theory to often forget in favor of a fevered dream Martin himself warns against.

And people who use there own theories to explain away other theories and then claim other theories can't be right because they are theories. R+L=j theory is based on nothing but assumption. Use facts from the book and they calim those facts don't count because they are POV. The first part of the Theory assumes Rhaegar and lyanna are in love. They ignore the fact that this guy wo was so in love had no problem sleeping with his wife and fathering another child by her in 282 and that he was at KL then and not off havng some wild romance with Lyanna. They ignore the fact that the only known time Rhaegar was around Lyanna was at HH when she was 14 in 281 but they assume they spent a lot of time together after that, even though nothing in the books implies this and they basically ignore anything they don't like in order to try and make a fantasy love story happen that has now moved into Lyanna and Rhaegar getting married.

There is no question that R+L=J, I have zero problem with that theory, but making up love stories and weddins and trying to tie them to a decent theory is ruining the theory for me. I actually used to believe until I saw how the built the theory and much of the actual facts they omit in favor of assumption. The facts actually put it togther better but then you don't get a love story or a wedding. As soon as the wedding poped up I had to drop the whole thing into crackpot land. They have gotten to the point where there theory has become fact or at least that is how they see it who cares what is in the books.

You want to know what happened at the tower, Read page 59 Eddards chapter AGoT. It's pretty cut and dry. It's the worst memory of Neds life, the name is Ironic, and nothing good ever happened at that place. Blood and roses, that's all that place is, blood and roses. The man went catatonic, do you know what kind of hell that takes to do that to a person? And poor Lyanna all she wanted to do was be buried beside her father and brother. She is dying and that is her final wish and it is in the book. That's three Stark lives the Targs destroyed, why do you think Ned layed them all together? Not on a hill or with Rhaegar, but with the people she really loved.

I would greatly appreciate if you might refrain from sarcastic comments and finish your re-read before you come bashing other posters for something that you have an incomplete grasp of. It would also help if you didn't constantly ignore the attempts to lay out the things which you are missing out on to you, it is rather inconsiderate of you to have people type long answers in earnest while you simply move elsewhere and keep bashing.

[zodiarkslayer]

You don't want me to go into the details of transporting a wooden coffin for days and weeks in warm climate. You just don't. Believe me.

Besides, we have Catelyn seeing Ned's actual bones, and Barristan pondering how to deflesh Quentyn's bones, and that all for that single particular purpose: not to transport decomposing flesh.

Agreed. That part of the post was meant ironic anyways. I don't see a point in trying to second guess parts of the story, that are described as facts in the books. Thats wishful thinking to me.

You want to know what happened at the tower, Read page 59 Eddards chapter AGoT. It's pretty cut and dry. It's the worst memory of Neds life, the name is Ironic, and nothing good ever happened at that place. Blood and roses, that's all that place is, blood and roses. The man went catatonic, do you know what kind of hell that takes to do that to a person? And poor Lyanna all she wanted to do was be buried beside her father and brother. She is dying and that is her final wish and it is in the book. That's three Stark lives the Targs destroyed, why do you think Ned layed them all together? Not on a hill or with Rhaegar, but with the people she really loved.

And of course Ned is in shock. He just lost the person he loved most. That cripples the stoutest man. But it is not said that:"Promise me, Ned!" only refers to being brought home to winterfell. It could be. And why prolonging death with all her might, when it is safe for her to assume that Ned would have done this anyways? Or are you suggesting she doesn't know her own brother? There is more to it.

and:

I would greatly appreciate if you might refrain from sarcastic comments and finish your re-read before you come bashing other posters for something that you have an incomplete grasp of. It would also help if you didn't constantly ignore the attempts to lay out the things which you are missing out on to you, it is rather inconsiderate of you to have people type long answers in earnest while you simply move elsewhere and keep bashing

:box:

[eggs]

And poor Lyanna all she wanted to do was be buried beside her father and brother. She is dying and that is her final wish and it is in the book.

So what do you make of Ned saying that Sansa had pleaded with him like Lyanna had?

[Blackfish Tully]

ItConsidering the Person of Arthur Dayne: I don't think he would loose to anyone but Rhaegar (did he do that on purpose?). Not even Ned and six of his Bannermen would stand a chance. Remember what Jaime said about him to Loras Tyrell and his men:

"I learned from Ser Arthur Dayne , the sword of the morning, who could have slain all five of you with his left hand while he was taking a piss with his right". SoS 67

Quite convincing... And By Ned's own admission:

"The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who would have killed me but for Howland Reed." CoK 21

This Quote says nowhere, that Reed actually killed Dayne in a fight. It might just mean that Reed talked Dayne to stop attacking, or so.

Arthur Dayne was a great fighter but it's ridiculous to think he could defeat Ned Stark and six of his bannermen. Ned Stark and his men might not have the fame of one of the Kingsguard but each one of them would have been battle hardened warrior who would have been trained to fight with a sword or axe since they were old enough to hold one. One of his companions was Theo Wull , a chieftain of Clan Wull, and in ADWD we saw how tough those Northern Clansmen were. Jory Cassell father was another of his comapnions and he would have been a good fighter as well. Lord Dustin , Ethan Glover and Ser Mark Ryswell would have been strong fighters as well so it's not that hard for me to believe that seven strong fighters were able to kill three very strong fighters with only two of the seven surviving.

[eggs]

Not that I dont agree with you, but would Ethan Glover have been a strong fighter? He was the squire to a 20 year old.

[King of Hats]

Can I just ask why people say that Ned was not a particularly good fighter? Does anyone say it in the books other than Ned?

[zodiarkslayer]

Arthur Dayne was a great fighter but it's ridiculous to think he could defeat Ned Stark and six of his bannermen. Ned Stark and his men might not have the fame of one of the Kingsguard but each one of them would have been battle hardened warrior who would have been trained to fight with a sword or axe since they were old enough to hold one. One of his companions was Theo Wull , a chieftain of Clan Wull, and in ADWD we saw how tough those Northern Clansmen were. Jory Cassell father was another of his comapnions and he would have been a good fighter as well. Lord Dustin , Ethan Glover and Ser Mark Ryswell would have been strong fighters as well so it's not that hard for me to believe that seven strong fighters were able to kill three very strong fighters with only two of the seven surviving.

Maybe you were right if it would have been only Arthur Dayne. But there were Ser Oswell Whent, and Lord Commander Ser Gerold Hightower with him. Both "living legends" themselves. Plus (assuming the fight started right away) the KG Knights would have been a lot fresher then the Stark men. They didn't ride the way from Storms End, was it? Riding in armour can be quite exhausting (FYI: I have been riding in armour at a medieval festival for fun. And it turned out to be not fun).

But you are right. It is kind of romantizing Dayne and the KG. ...Then again GRRM also romantizes them. Especially Dayne. What else are we to make of it?

[The Dornishman's Wife]

Can I just ask why people say that Ned was not a particularly good fighter? Does anyone say it in the books other than Ned?

GRRM said that Brandon, not Ned, was the swordsman of the family. That doesn't mean that Ned was rubbish or anything, but it would be surprising if he was another Sword of the Morning despite being overshadowed by his brother (who is not usually mentioned in the list of greatest fighters of all time either).

[Lord Reaver]

That's three Stark lives the Targs destroyed, why do you think Ned layed them all together? Not on a hill or with Rhaegar, but with the people she really loved.

Three Stark lives eh ? And yet Ned harbours no ill feelings about the man who supposedly raped his sister to death. Curious.

There would have been a fight because 7 rebels came to steal either the Crown Prince's concubine or wife, according to the KGs. We see the KG do all kinds of missions for the royal family, beyond simply acting as bodyguards to the King (Arys Oakheart in Dorne, Barristan killing Maelys the Monstrous in the war of the Ninepenny Kings). It doesn't seem out of place at all that the Crown Prince could ask 3 of them to guard his concubine/wife while she was giving birth to his child.

Also, look, Dayne and the other 2 KG might have been hell on wheels, but 7 on 3 is a huge advantage in a swordfight. 2 on 1 gives you the ability to triangulate your opponent, which is pretty much devastating. 7 average fighters should have absolutely no problem defeating 3 good ones. For the 3 to be able to take out 5 of their opponents speaks of them being incredibly skilled, almost beyond belief.

I see no reason to dispute the memories we have from Ned, other than being overly skeptic to anything in GRRM's books. Now, a healthy dose of skepticism is good, but I think this is one of those instances of taking it a bit far, similar to the "Syrio is alive!" thread.

[eggs]

Also, look, Dayne and the other 2 KG might have been hell on wheels, but 7 on 3 is a huge advantage in a swordfight. 2 on 1 gives you the ability to triangulate your opponent, which is pretty much devastating. 7 average fighters should have absolutely no problem defeating 3 good ones. For the 3 to be able to take out 5 of their opponents speaks of them being incredibly skilled, almost beyond belief.

didnt Jaime cut down 6 guys and only stopped because his sword got stuck in someones neck? Then you have Barristan cutting down a dozen men on the Trident.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

didnt Jaime cut down 6 guys and only stopped because his sword got stuck in someones neck? Then you have Barristan cutting down a dozen men on the Trident.

I bet they didn't fight all of them alone and at once though. Six wins (or even 12) in a row is believable even if your opponents are all knights (though I'm not sure theirs were). But winning one-against-six (or even 12) at the same time is a different matter entirely.

[Lord Reaver]

What the Dornisman's wife said is correct. Killing 6 or even 12 people during the course of a battle is feasible. In such circumstances, it's possible to find and engage opponents who are unsupported, because it's a large-scale melee and the number of men on each side is at least relatively balanced.

But that's not the situation at the tower. There's only 10 people there, 7 of them trying to kill 3 others. A completely unbalanced situation in favor of Ned and his companions.

[eggs]

Garlan trains 3 on 1. Its not unreasonable to expect these legendary fighters to be able to take out 2 guys. of course the actual advantage is that the 7 were on horseback.

[JC Denton]

Yes, and it's considering all of these circumstantial clues as a totality that builds such a strong case for this theory. I have yet to read any alternative interpretation that reasonably contradicts it. I grant that some of the blanks (the hows and the whys) are largely explained by fan wish fulfillment but the essential case for R+L=J (after five books) is not, rather it's the most reasonable interpretation.

OP: I can't argue for or against the position that Lyanna was a hostage because that answer largely depends on knowing the nature of her relationship with Rhaegar. I don't see evidence that proves she was there against her will, however. That said, I tend to think that the KG stayed and fought because they were upholding their vow to obey Rhaegar's orders to guard/protect Lyanna. (I'm not convinced, although I vacillate a lot about this issue, that the KG presence proves without a doubt that Jon is legitimate and they were upholding their primary directive to guard the new Targaryen king.) It's reasonable to assume that the KG considered Ned, a rebel leader and his crew a hostile force, particularly in light of the rebel's destruction of Rhaegar's family in King's Landing. And a dying Lyanna was not in any condition physically to intervene, let alone know what was going down somewhere outside.

Wouldn't Viserys be king, since Rhaegar died first, the throne would pass to Viserys after Aerys died?

[Usrnmhsnomning]

I find it odd that questioning "Lyanna and Rhaegar were in love and got married" just got compared to "Syrio is alive". "R+L=love and marriage" isn't in the book and its astounding that someone who points that out is called "sarcastic" and is told to respect other peoples theories and that pointing out zero factual evidence is "bashing".

@denton

Succession laws make Aegon next in line, then Viserys, then, funnily enough, Robert, who as a male has greater claim than Rhaenys and Danaerys

[Lord Reaver]

I find it odd that questioning "Lyanna and Rhaegar were in love and got married" just got compared to "Syrio is alive".

That was not what I said. Read my post.

I was referring to the discussion about the fight here, which is the stated point of this topic, I was not targeting you or anyone else in particular, get over yourself.

And training against multiples (from personal experience, fighting 1 vs 3 is little different than 1 vs 2, it just means you will still be triangulated after you kill one of your opponents) is the only way of ensuring that you won't go down like an idiot in such a situation, it's hardly proof that you'll deal with it easily, especially if they themselves are trained fighters (as we have every reason to think the 7 were).

[Blackfish Tully]

Garlan trains 3 on 1. Its not unreasonable to expect these legendary fighters to be able to take out 2 guys. of course the actual advantage is that the 7 were on horseback.

Training is one thing fighting to the death is another. As far as the legendary fighter status I'm not sure is we can consider Oswell Whent and Gerold Hightower legendary fighters , just because you're on the Kingsguard does not mean that you are automatically better then every other fighter , Borus Blount for example, and Gerold Hightower was getting pretty old at that time.

If the seven are smart and well disciplined it should be easy to keep the three on the defensive and tire them out. The fact that the three killed five of the attackers and almost killed the other two shows how tough the three Kingsguard were.