The Tower of Joy Battle, not as we are led to believe?

[Real Heir of Bear Island]

I don't believe Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. I thought that in Danys dream Rhaegar said Aegon was the PTWP and that his song was of ice and fire? I still don't understand how Rhaegar "knew" he had to have a child with Lyanna either.

We know Rheagar though he was the PTWP and that was wrong. Then he figured out it would be his child. When Aegon was born he assumed it was him. I think , once he met Lyanna and they fell in love and got a child on her it dawned on him, Song of Ice and Fire, Stark and Targ, BINGO!

[Usrnmhsnomning]

Your post was riddled with "concubine or wife" references, and Im wrong for assuming that "neds memories" was referring to more than just the fight? Get over myself? Mirror, bro. All you did was prove my point really. Its sad that your reaction is so confrontational and negative just because Im not open to your interpretation of the events of Neds memories

[Usrnmhsnomning]

We know Rheagar though he was the PTWP and that was wrong. Then he figured out it would be his child. When Aegon was born he assumed it was him. I think , once he met Lyanna and they fell in love and got a child on her it dawned on him, Song of Ice and Fire, Stark and Targ, BINGO!

Didn't he meet Lyanna before Aegon was born? He explicitly says Aegons song is of ice and fire in Danys dream, then says the dragon has three heads

[mcb]

You want to know what happened at the tower, Read page 59 Eddards chapter AGoT. It's pretty cut and dry. It's the worst memory of Neds life, the name is Ironic, and nothing good ever happened at that place. Blood and roses, that's all that place is, blood and roses. The man went catatonic, do you know what kind of hell that takes to do that to a person? And poor Lyanna all she wanted to do was be buried beside her father and brother. She is dying and that is her final wish and it is in the book.

Nope. Read it again. That's what Ned said aloud to Robert, but Ned's memories don't mirror that. In Ned's memory there's only "promise me, Ned", but not what.

Anyway, Lyanna's final wish being just about her funeral arrangements doesn't hold water. She wants to be buried in the crypts of Winterfell, as befits a Stark - sure, no problem. Why on Earth would Ned deny that request? Why she would ever ask? Why there's fear in her eyes? He's bound to give her a proper funeral, that's a given. "Ned, promise me that you'd do what you were going to do anyway, do what the Starks always do, promise me, Ned" - nope, I don't see it. "Promise me to stain your honor, to cause pain to your newlywed wife, and to live a lie for the rest of your life, but keep my son safe" - now that indeed is a big request. That would explain Lyanna's anxiety.

“I was with her when she died,” Ned reminded the king. “She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father.” He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. “I bring her flowers when I can,” he said. “Lyanna was … fond of flowers.”

[Lord Reaver]

Your post was riddled with "concubine or wife" references, and Im wrong for assuming that "neds memories" was referring to more than just the fight?

Fine, would "concubine, wife or rapist hostage" have been better ? If so, I apologize for not adding that part. It really is of no regard to the point I was trying to make.

Get over myself? Mirror, bro. All you did was prove my point really.

Mirror ? No, I don't need one, thank you. Your posts were clearly directed at me, while mine could only be interpreted as directed at you if you did indeed have an extreme self-oriented mindset. Hence, get over your self. Also, did you have a point, other than being self-righteously upset over a minor detail that was left out, which was totally unrelated to my main point anyway ?

[Ygrain]

Nope. Read it again. That's what Ned said aloud to Robert, but Ned's memories don't mirror that. In Ned's memory there's only "promise me, Ned", but not what.

Anyway, Lyanna's final wish being just about her funeral arrangements doesn't hold water. She wants to be buried in the crypts of Winterfell, as befits a Stark - sure, no problem. Why on Earth would Ned deny that request? Why she would ever ask? Why there's fear in her eyes? He's bound to give her a proper funeral, that's a given. "Ned, promise me that you'd do what you were going to do anyway, do what the Starks always do, promise me, Ned" - nope, I don't see it. "Promise me to stain your honor, to cause pain to your newlywed wife, and to live a lie for the rest of your life, but keep my son safe" - now that indeed is a big request. That would explain Lyanna's anxiety.

Yeah, if Lyanna was merely an innocent victim of abduction and rape, she had zero reason to fear that her wish would not be granted. Bringing her bones to WInterfell taxes Ned with no price to pay, nor does it burden him with lies he has to live for fourteen fourteen years, nor does it explain any secret too dangerous to share with anyone. - Oh, and when do we see the honourable Ned lie throughout the series? When he protects those he loves. So, who has he been protecting for fourteen years?

[UVA]

Nope. Read it again. That's what Ned said aloud to Robert, but Ned's memories don't mirror that. In Ned's memory there's only "promise me, Ned", but not what.

Anyway, Lyanna's final wish being just about her funeral arrangements doesn't hold water. She wants to be buried in the crypts of Winterfell, as befits a Stark - sure, no problem. Why on Earth would Ned deny that request? Why she would ever ask? Why there's fear in her eyes? He's bound to give her a proper funeral, that's a given. "Ned, promise me that you'd do what you were going to do anyway, do what the Starks always do, promise me, Ned" - nope, I don't see it. "Promise me to stain your honor, to cause pain to your newlywed wife, and to live a lie for the rest of your life, but keep my son safe" - now that indeed is a big request. That would explain Lyanna's anxiety.

Yes, yes and yes. Well said, couldn't agree more.

Ser Creighton, here and elsewhere you seem to cling to this notion that the TOJ was some kind of rape torture chamber. That is only suggested through Robert's irrational rage (Ned comments on this on a few occasions) and Bran's comment in the crypt at Winterfell. The latter can most likely be explained by the fact that the rape story was the general perception, especially in the North. And why would Ned want to, if not promulgate the abduction/rape story, deny it? The rape angle serves many purposes not the least of which is to preserve Lyanna's, and hence House Stark's honor and to quiet further gossip. If the events surrounding Lyanna, the TOJ, and Jon's origins are so closely, fiercely guarded by Ned, an abduction/rape versus a love/lust/ we-did-it-for-prophecy angle seems to better dispel further speculation on these matters.

[eggs]

Training is one thing fighting to the death is another.

your point?

As far as the legendary fighter status I'm not sure is we can consider Oswell Whent and Gerold Hightower legendary fighters , just because you're on the Kingsguard does not mean that you are automatically better then every other fighter , Borus Blount for example, and Gerold Hightower was getting pretty old at that time.

That’s exactly what being on the kingsgaurd means. The current members like Boros are repeatedly stated to be unworthy of the title. making the claim that taking on 2 opponents is an unbelievable feat even for a top tier is pretty ridiculous when you have guys like Syrio doing it with ease. Making the claim that Jaime and Barristan faced a gauntlet of one on one battles is even more ridiculous.

[Lord Reaver]

making the claim that taking on 2 opponents is an unbelievable feat even for a top tier is pretty ridiculous when you have guys like Syrio doing it with ease.

Yeah, such a claim would be ridiculous. Good thing noone did make such a claim, eh ?

Making the claim that Jaime and Barristan faced a gauntlet of one on one battles is even more ridiculous.

Again, noone did. I pointed out the a battle and a skirmish are quite different situations. I never said that either was "a gauntlets of one on one battles".

[eggs]

Yeah, such a claim would be ridiculous. Good thing noone did make such a claim, eh ?

>

2 on 1 gives you the ability to triangulate your opponent, which is pretty much devastating. 7 average fighters should have absolutely no problem defeating 3 good ones. For the 3 to be able to take out 5 of their opponents speaks of them being incredibly skilled, almost beyond belief.

Again, noone did. I pointed out the a battle and a skirmish are quite different situations. I never said that either was "a gauntlets of one on one battles".

>

I bet they didn't fight all of them alone and at once though. Six wins (or even 12) in a row is believable even if your opponents are all knights (though I'm not sure theirs were). But winning one-against-six (or even 12) at the same time is a different matter entirely.

[Beric Zoolander]

Anyway, Lyanna's final wish being just about her funeral arrangements doesn't hold water. She wants to be buried in the crypts of Winterfell, as befits a Stark - sure, no problem. Why on Earth would Ned deny that request? Why she would ever ask? Why there's fear in her eyes? He's bound to give her a proper funeral, that's a given. "Ned, promise me that you'd do what you were going to do anyway, do what the Starks always do, promise me, Ned" - nope, I don't see it. "Promise me to stain your honor, to cause pain to your newlywed wife, and to live a lie for the rest of your life, but keep my son safe" - now that indeed is a big request. That would explain Lyanna's anxiety.

Just to piggyback on this. This is just speculation from my own feelings but most people when they die don't care too much about the arrangements. I mean you're dead what do you care. And more than likely Ned being Ned would be taking his own sister back to her home to be buried anyways. Funerals and burials are often more for those that are still living than for the dead.

In addition to Lyanna's anxiety at the time we witness Ned's as well. He is Haunted by the words "promise me" as if he is still working to fulfill that promise if it was him simply burying her / bringing her back to Winterfell, well...why would he be worried about it, he would have completed it.

[Lord Reaver]

Apparently descriptors such as "good" and "average" are completely lost on you, eh ? Sad thing, that.

Syrio fights a number of guards who obviously are ridiculously unskilled and make no attempt to use their numerical advantage, which is why Trant basically rolls his eyes when they're smacked down. Not a comparable situation to the one at the TOJ at all.

Also "x wins in a row" =|= "a gauntlet of one on one battles"

[Blackfish Tully]

your point?That’s exactly what being on the kingsgaurd means. The current members like Boros are repeatedly stated to be unworthy of the title. making the claim that taking on 2 opponents is an unbelievable feat even for a top tier is pretty ridiculous when you have guys like Syrio doing it with ease. Making the claim that Jaime and Barristan faced a gauntlet of one on one battles is even more ridiculous.

You would have more of a point if it wasn't for the fact that it is stated several times in the books that appointment onto the Kingsguard has as much or more to do with political reasons than the fighting skill of the knight. Jamie Lannister was put on the Kingsguard for the sole reason so Aerys could stick it to his father . Jamie happens to be a great fighter but even if he was not Aerys would have still put him on the Kingsguard. Just because somebody is a Kingsguard member does not automatically make him a better fighter than any other knight.

[eggs]

You would have more of a point if it wasn't for the fact that it is stated several times in the books that appointment onto the Kingsguard has as much or more to do with political reasons than the fighting skill of the knight.

quotes? Im well aware that Aerys put Jaime on KG to keep him close, but when else? Even Ned calls the previous generation of KG the finest knights in the realm and a shining example to the world.

Apparently descriptors such as "good" and "average" are completely lost on you, eh ? Sad thing, that.

the descriptors as you used them have no bearing on your point that 2 to 1 is a nearly insurmountable advantage.

Syrio *snip*.

we'll have to agree to disagree on that point.

Also "x wins in a row" =|= "a gauntlet of one on one battles"

....theyre saying the same thing.

[Nic.]

Pretty obvious why. They did as Rhaegar bid them not what Lyanna said regardless of whether she was a princess. On top of it, how could they trust the men that were with Ned not to kill Lyanna's son the same way the Lannisters had with Rhaenys and Aegon?

[The Dornishman's Wife]

....theyre saying the same thing.

No they are not.

Though I have the feeling it's kind of pointless to argue with you any further if you don't even want to admit that there is a difference between "I killed 12 guys in that battle" and "I fought 12 guys 12-on-1 and won".

[eggs]

No they are not.

if you are fighting guys 'in a row' that implies that youre taking them one after the other. you wanna explain why this is false?

[Blackfish Tully]

quotes? Im well aware that Aerys put Jaime on KG to keep him close, but when else? Even Ned calls the previous generation of KG the finest knights in the realm and a shining example to the world.

Being a "fine knight and a shining example to the world" has nothing to do with how good you can swing a sword. Bronn and Sandor are not good guys but both are great fighters. As far as quotes I do not have time to dig any up but I remember Cersie explaining how politics played a part in Boros Blount joining the Kingsguard and I also remember Jon Connington being annoyed that Aegon had put Duck on the Kingsguard because he wanted to use appointment to the Kingsguard as a political move in the future.

[Kasrith]

I just can't wait for Bran to tell us what actually happened. Yes I can see Howland Reed eventually giving the story's characters insight on the events of TOJ and Lyanna/Ned/Jon, but I think we will probably learn it sooner once Bran

tones his vision skills and is able to mature through the early stages of seeing only through the eyes of the trees.

[eggs]

Being a "fine knight and a shining example to the world" has nothing to do with how good you can swing a sword. Bronn and Sandor are not good guys but both are great fighters.

were going to have to agree to disagree.

As far as quotes I do not have time to dig any up but I remember Cersie explaining how politics played a part in Boros Blount joining the Kingsguard and I also remember Jon Connington being annoyed that Aegon had put Duck on the Kingsguard because he wanted to use appointment to the Kingsguard as a political move in the future.

Ones from the shit generation and the other isn’t part of the legitimate KG.