The Tower of Joy Battle, not as we are led to believe?

[Sasha Steelsong]

Viserys STILL takes precedent over a girl. After Rhaegar and Aegon, there was a 50/50 chance the heir was (assuming legitimacy) the ToJ baby or Viserys. If the KG are protecting heirs, they are doing so assuming that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon might die. Why then would they ignore the very real possibility that the ToJ baby might not have been an heir?

You see, you're just dismissing a valid point. Communications have nothing to do with the fact that these KG are protecting the ToJ because of the very real chance the true kings and heirs may die. But at the same time, there is a very real chance the ToJ is not a true heir and as such, given that the KG have split to protect kings and heirs, at least one KG member would go to protect Viserys too. They aren't there to protect heirs, in my opinion, they are there purely because Rhaegar ordered it, legitimate male or illegitimate female be damned.

Yes but if Jon is born before they get the news of what happened in KL as both Dragonfish and I suggested, then there is no girl to take precedence over. Jon already exists and they know he is a boy. And we mention communications because it may well have taken weeks from the time of the sack for the news to reach the TOJ, thus allowing time for Jon to exist as something other than a potential heir and preventing the TOJ KG from knowing the danger the other potential heirs are in (afterall Viserys is still heir to the throne if Jon is King). In your opinion then a dead prince's orders are more important to follow than defending a completely unprotected child King? Really? Somehow that makes more sense than Jon being born before they get the news of KL, and once they get it them staying there because they know Jon is a boy, is legitimate, and thus King. Which would also make what they said to Ned make sense (that they were fullfilling their vow) instead of it being a bold faced lie which is what it would be if Viserys was king.

[Usrnmhsnomning]

Read the whole ToJ scene again. They are outside the tower, apparently waiting for Ned, who was, again very apparently, tipped off where to go. In their conversation, the KG show no surprise or shock over the news, or any other reaction except firm resolution. They knew.

I disagree.

Jon's birth is stated by GRRM as within a month since the Sack. Even with instant messaging, that would give them a maximum of four-week period of interregnum when the succession is unclear and has to be waited out. Given the distances, the child would have been born before the KG would reach Dragonstone, and what what would they do then if it was male, turn back?

Or, assuming the baby is king, they can protect his heir. Or they can keep following orders and protect the child because Rhaegar told them too. :dunno:

How many times does this have to be explained to you?

As many times as you think it'll take to convince me. :leaving:

[Sasha Steelsong]

You're just proving my point; the KG are not there to protect the potential heir to the throne (like it has been said, they couldn't have known that Aerys, Rhaegar, and Aegon were dead until Ned approached and therefore known he was king) and as such they are there for another reason, read my other post for that reason.

But they did know that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead before Ned showed up as indicated by their conversation with him, so you conclusion is wrong. No one has ever said they were initially there to protect heirs (the protection of heirs was brought up as part of the questioning of whether Jon could even be king since he wasn't born when the other three died...posthumously born heirs can inherit so Jon would not be skipped because he wasn't alive), they initially stayed likely because Rhaegar ordered them to. The issue is why they stayed when they knew that the king and the next two in line for the throne were dead and the one that should be the king by all common knowledge was on Dragonstone and still maintained they were keeping to their vow.

[Ygrain]

And the child was born only shortly before Ned arrived, correct?

Puerperal fever would allow for about a fortnight before he arrived

Yep, because Rhaegar ordered it. If they were gonna listen to Rhaegar before he was king, why would his death change that? "We swore vows". Ned already knows the KG swear vows, and they know he knows. Why reiterate? Maybe because Rhaegar had them swear something else.

IF they listened to Rhaegar. We know that Hightower was the king's man, not Rhaegar.

BTW, they repeat we are Kingsguard, Kingsguard, Kingsguard, but they stay because they place another vow above their Kingsguard vow? That doesn't make sense. And it's not what oaths work like, either - if you swear a most solemn oath, you can't replace it by any other, anything else you swear later can be sworn only if it doesn't contradict the previous one.

And the child was born only shortly before Ned arrived, lest Lyanna bleed to death after a bad pregnancy in what should take at most mere hours.

She didn't bleed to death, she had fever. "Bed of blood" is birthing blood, and women do bleed for quite some time after the delivery.

That's because they were following orders to protect the child regardless, and Kingsguards do not flee. Not because the child is a legitimate heir and true king, but because Rhaegar made them do so.

See above. Rhaegar's orders cannot take precedence over their primary duty, or else they are oathbreakers to their primary vow and cannot claim that they aren't.

[Sasha Steelsong]

I'm not going to bother reiterating what I've already said, you can read the last page or so of posts for that.

So once again you're not going to bother responding directly to my post and are once again trying to deflect. Not surprised I must say as it keeps you from having to answer any of the questions I posed that would need to be answered for an alternative theory to work as well as R+L=J.

[Ygrain]

I disagree.

Based on what?

Besides, as Dragonfish has pointed out, they still insist that their duty is at ToJ, even if they heard from Ned the first time.

Or, assuming the baby is king, they can protect his heir. Or they can keep following orders and protect the child because Rhaegar told them too. :dunno:

Imagine it as a chain of command, then. Orders/vows are prioritized according to the rank. Orders from Captain/Crown Prince cannot override orders from the General/King. You obey the former if his commands do not clash with the commands from the latter. They can follow an order or an oath from Rhaegar only if it doesn't clash with their primary duty to the king.

[mcb]

This is how this thread took off:

This has pretty much nothing to do with the "R+L=J" stuff.

Yeah, that went well. :lmao:

[Trident full of Dogs]

You have access to his words, pg 59 hard cover AGoT, in which he openly talks about his last moments with Lyanna. In which he actually states the promise she asked and he kept. A page many fans of a theory to often forget in favor of a fevered dream Martin himself warns against.

And people who use there own theories to explain away other theories and then claim other theories can't be right because they are theories. R+L=j theory is based on nothing but assumption. Use facts from the book and they calim those facts don't count because they are POV. The first part of the Theory assumes Rhaegar and lyanna are in love. They ignore the fact that this guy wo was so in love had no problem sleeping with his wife and fathering another child by her in 282 and that he was at KL then and not off havng some wild romance with Lyanna. They ignore the fact that the only known time Rhaegar was around Lyanna was at HH when she was 14 in 281 but they assume they spent a lot of time together after that, even though nothing in the books implies this and they basically ignore anything they don't like in order to try and make a fantasy love story happen that has now moved into Lyanna and Rhaegar getting married.

There is no question that R+L=J, I have zero problem with that theory, but making up love stories and weddins and trying to tie them to a decent theory is ruining the theory for me. I actually used to believe until I saw how the built the theory and much of the actual facts they omit in favor of assumption. The facts actually put it togther better but then you don't get a love story or a wedding. As soon as the wedding poped up I had to drop the whole thing into crackpot land. They have gotten to the point where there theory has become fact or at least that is how they see it who cares what is in the books.

You want to know what happened at the tower, Read page 59 Eddards chapter AGoT. It's pretty cut and dry. It's the worst memory of Neds life, the name is Ironic, and nothing good ever happened at that place. Blood and roses, that's all that place is, blood and roses. The man went catatonic, do you know what kind of hell that takes to do that to a person? And poor Lyanna all she wanted to do was be buried beside her father and brother. She is dying and that is her final wish and it is in the book. That's three Stark lives the Targs destroyed, why do you think Ned layed them all together? Not on a hill or with Rhaegar, but with the people she really loved.

Sorry I quoted the whole post as I'm using my phone and it's really time-consuming to delete text in it.

Of course I read the page you mentioned. It describes Ned's dream. My point is, in that dream there are the riders, the KG, the tower in Dorne, the figjt, Lyanna screaming Eddard!, Lyanna saying Promise me Ned. But nowhere in that dream.(not a memory, it is a dream!) is Lyanna shown to be inside the tower or even looking at Ned from a window.

Ned's dream suggests, but not proves, Lyanna was in ToJ or even in Dorne. That leaves room for people like me, who love analysing the text to shreds, to wonder and create alternative thories. R+L=J is certainly the most likely theory but not the only one, based on the text itself.

I think it's an interesting possibity that Ashara Dayne was in ToJ and not Lyanna. Maybe Ashara was the one who cried Eddard! and not Lyanna who I guess would have called out NED! rather than EDDARD!

Vayon Poole is next to Ned as he wakes from his dream, calling Lord Eddard! to wake him up, so another possibity is Lyanna never called Eddard! but it was just Poole's voice waking Ned up.

[FattyPeon]

I can't remember all the known events at the trident, who was there and when etc, so maybe it's impossible but could Rhaegar himself have been the one who told Ned to go to the ToJ, before he died?

[Rheagar Prime]

we won't know until martin writes about it i am also eager to why rhaegar took her and stayed so long in dorne and why even hightower who let the queen get raped stayed as well.

[The Fallen]

I don't believe Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. I thought that in Danys dream Rhaegar said Aegon was the PTWP and that his song was of ice and fire? I still don't understand how Rhaegar "knew" he had to have a child with Lyanna either.

The prophecy was Rheagar telling Elia that he needed a third heard for the dragon and Elia agreeing with him. That to me says that Elia knew and approved of Rheagar's relationship with Lyanna in order to get the third head of the dragon, and thus The Prince that was Promised.

[zodiarkslayer]

Does anyone know the words of the Kingsguard's Oath? I can't recall ever reading them, anywhere. The answer to why they were at ToJ might be in the Oath. It could include a loophole that would allow a member of the KG to act against the will of the King if their honour forbid it,or if they would protect the realm istead of the King or the King from himself by not following the Kings orders (Isn't that something Jaime said to the KGs that beat up Sansa?).

And some Questions here to the board:

a) Does the line of succession automatically make you King in Westeros or does the Coronation only or something entirely else? Like, say.... A Grand Measters blessing or so? A regalia maybe? Or do you simply need to literally sit on the Iron Throne?

b ) Is it mentioned in the books if the KG own fuelty only to crowned Kings or potential Kings as well (including heirs)? Look at the disorder at the War of the five Kings. To which King does the KG own fuelty there? An incestuos demented little Brat without a (real) claim to the Throne..

c) Do they swear new Oaths when a new King ascends the throne?

d) If Robert Baratheon is crowned King, wouldn't the KG need to be with him? Especially the Lord Commander? Now: Did the coronation happen before or after ToJ?

Remark: There is no King named after Aerys II and before Robert in any non-canon source, that I could find on the web. Nor do I remember reading one in the books.

[The guy from the Vale]

Let me quote Martin's answer to a similar question:

4) Does the oath of a Kingsguard include to serve _whoever_ is the king, even if the new king rebelled against the old one, or did Jaime and Barristan _choose_ to continue their service as Robert was crowned?

The oaths did not envision rebellion, actually. Robert pardoned Barristan and Jaime, and they accepted the pardon and continued to serve.

In short: The Kingsguard are not sworn to whoever sits on the Iron Throne, but to the Targaryen dynasty.

[ladyinblack]

Viserys STILL takes precedent over a girl. After Rhaegar and Aegon, there was a 50/50 chance the heir was (assuming legitimacy) the ToJ baby or Viserys. If the KG are protecting heirs, they are doing so assuming that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon might die. Why then would they ignore the very real possibility that the ToJ baby might not have been an heir?

You see, you're just dismissing a valid point. Communications have nothing to do with the fact that these KG are protecting the ToJ because of the very real chance the true kings and heirs may die. But at the same time, there is a very real chance the ToJ is not a true heir and as such, given that the KG have split to protect kings and heirs, at least one KG member would go to protect Viserys too. They aren't there to protect heirs, in my opinion, they are there purely because Rhaegar ordered it, legitimate male or illegitimate female be damned.

:agree:

[VaramyrSixchins]

During the exchange in his dream, It seems almost as if Ned is probing for answers as to why those particular KG never appeared in the war. Does this mean he had some suspicion about what he may find at ToJ?

[Dragonfish]

Does anyone know the words of the Kingsguard's Oath? I can't recall ever reading them, anywhere.

The words of the Kingsguard Oath have never been quoted in full. However, we do have references to the various duties their oath entails, including two references to protecting the king being their "first duty."

The answer to why they were at ToJ might be in the Oath. It could include a loophole that would allow a member of the KG to act against the will of the King if their honour forbid it,or if they would protect the realm istead of the King or the King from himself by not following the Kings orders (Isn't that something Jaime said to the KGs that beat up Sansa?).

I can't imagine that Aegon I (the founder of the Kingsguard) would've included a loophole that allowed the Kingsguard to not protect the king. The Kingsguard are supposed to be loyal and dedicated protectors who will never flee from the King's side even in the worst of times. Having a loophole for all that defeats the entire purpose of having a Kingsguard.

And some Questions here to the board:

a) Does the line of succession automatically make you King in Westeros or does the Coronation only or something entirely else? Like, say.... A Grand Measters blessing or so? A regalia maybe? Or do you simply need to literally sit on the Iron Throne?

You're king by virtue of birth, and nothing more. The Kingsguard protected Joffrey after Robert's death and before his coronation. And Ser Barristan eventually came to believe he was honor bound to protect Daenerys, even though she had never had a coronation or sat the Iron Throne.

b ) Is it mentioned in the books if the KG own fuelty only to crowned Kings or potential Kings as well (including heirs)? Look at the disorder at the War of the five Kings. To which King does the KG own fuelty there? An incestuos demented little Brat without a (real) claim to the Throne..

First of all, it's "fealty", not "fuelty." Second of all, as I've said above, the Kingsguard protect Joffrey during the War of the Five Kings, even before his coronation, and despite the existence of other claimants to the throne. That should answer your question.

c) Do they swear new Oaths when a new King ascends the throne?

The Kingsguard swear their oaths for life, so I'd imagine their loyalty automatically transfers to the next king. It's possible they do swear new oaths as a symbolic measure, but I don't imagine they would be considered to be released from the Kingsguard if they didn't swear such oaths (remember, it was considered absolutely unprecedented for Ser Barristan to be released from the Kingsguard).

d) If Robert Baratheon is crowned King, wouldn't the KG need to be with him? Especially the Lord Commander? Now: Did the coronation happen before or after ToJ?

See theguyfromtheVale's post above.