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Robb and the Red Wedding


Vergo

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There is no such thing as a hero, and not every ending is happy.

It's cruel, but that's life. Good people die and bad guys live on, and die later. It's a shame that this happened to the Stark family, but there are many other characters with their own stories.

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The Red Wedding is shocking at first for everyone, but please continue reading.....there is so much more important plots happening in these books than what is written in bold and deemed titles like the "Red Wedding"......it's in the songs, whispers and stories where the good stuff is hidden.....the slight actions and schemes and poems....minor characters move to major......truly a Game of Thrones.........IT GETS SO MUCH BETTER.....by the time you're waiting for the Winds of Winters like the rest of us, Robb will be a memory....or more...a piece of a puzzle.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Vergo, I am completely and wholly in agreement with your first post. My God, I thought I was alone in such torment. Like you, I completely attached to Robb Stark for everything he stood for (justice, virtue, love) and as a big brother, I would have fought to the very end to rescue my sister. Also like you, I am a huge Lord of the Rings/Tolkien fan. I read the books after I got hooked on the show.

Unlike Vergo, though (seemingly indicated by your more recent posts), I can't forgive Martin for what he does to Robb. The fact that the "Red Wedding" happened and Robb was massacred was bad enough, but to have Grey Wind's head sewn atop his dead, mangled corpse? I sincerely think that this is not good and crafty authorship as much as it is Martin gloating over the fact that he is a sick-minded individual with a powerful pen.

The humiliation in death that Robb Stark receives, at Martin's hands, to me is the sole reason I will never get over this. It's not just that he died, it's HOW he died. The image of Robb's corpse and Grey Wind's decapitated head sewn on it will never leave my memory, and will haunt me for long. I have had terrible dreams because of the RW - that I am Robb and there is no way out of the massacre. I kid you not. Before bashing me and telling me I need help, understand that I am still invested in ASoIaF if only for Robb's memory. But this event was too much for me to take.

I partly blame HBO for casting a likable man of my age (I believe Madden’s 25/26?) to play Robb, as I immediately identified with his character more so because of our age similarity and the “older brother” vibe Robb had. I read the books after that bond with Robb, and to read of his demise in such a way burns me to my core. No doubt Martin's intention. Yet I can never, ever agree with it, and for myself I will never forgive Martin or hold that he and JRR Tolkien are in the same league. Tolkien would have had to kill Frodo in the tower of Mordor, have him skinned and mutilated and displayed upon the rafters of the Dark Tower to equal such a disastrous turn of events.

Ugh…why couldn't Robb have been poisoned? Why couldn't the "Red Wedding" instead be written for Joffrey on his wedding day? Clearly, fans of Robb Stark would have been somewhat appeased. But no, of course not. Why please your fans? Martin's no more realistic than Potter, and Sam Huxley sums up my feelings exactly on this so-called "realism":

The realism that GRRM tries to put forward in his books is missed here, SOMEONE would have found out and told someone else, there's absolutely no way that the Bolton or Frey men would have enough cause to hate Robb and the other northerners that much to let them be massacred whilst they thought they were safe?

I am of the exact thinking. And to those of you who even think the RW a justifiable event for Robb's broken oath of marriage to the Freys, you must lack a bit of humanity. There is no oath broken that deserves that, especially for such an honorable man as Robb was. Boromir's death in The Lord of the Rings would be far more suiting for one of Robb's character, if he had to die at all.

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..but to have Grey Wind's head sewn atop his dead, mangled corpse? I sincerely think that this is not good and crafty authorship as much as it is Martin gloating over the fact that he is a sick-minded individual with a powerful pen.

Oh please.. so dramatic.

Personally I believe that was brilliant authorship, even that part yes, and why would you go and say Martin is a "sick-minded individual", that's just ridiculous. I am a hundred percent positive you could come up with something far worse than having your pet's head replace yours. If he dares to embody that into the evil characters of his worlds, then that's brave, not sick-minded..

And you also say it like it's a negative thing. Why do you think the series are as good as they are? George is great at not only bringing out what's good in humanity, but also what is evil.

Ugh…why couldn't Robb have been poisoned? Why couldn't the "Red Wedding" instead be written for Joffrey on his wedding day? Clearly, fans of Robb Stark would have been pleased. But no, of course not. Why please your fans? Martin's no more realistic than Potter, and Sam Huxley sums up my feelings exactly on this so-called "realism":

"Why please your fans?" There are tons of fan-pleasers in the books, just because you only cared about one single character, who didn't even have a single POV, and when he is killed off, you say martin is some kind of sadistic douchebag.. your point of view on this is just so biased that it hurts..

And in Georges own words "Art isn't a democracy". He didn't create these series to please anyone but himself, it's his stories, not yours..

I understand that you might be a little disappointed on Robb's death, but seriously man, you are taking it way too far.. You also gotta realize that he killed Robb off for a reason, he didn't do it because he just suddenly felt like it, George himself has said that it's really hard for him to kill his characters. Robbs death will, obviously, lead to something other than Robb sitting on the iron throne and being married to Daenerys, after having killed Joffrey of course. And I think that's alot more exiting than having the typical One single hero from page 1 to the last page, who never dies and manages to get out of every dangerous situation he is in.. it adds to the realism..

sorry for the wall of text btw

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then that's brave, not sick-minded..

And you also say it like it's a negative thing. Why do you think the series are as good as they are? George is great at not only bringing out what's good in humanity, but also what is evil.

We simply do not share the shame opinion on this matter. To me, there was nothing brave about Robb's fate. It was humiliating and unnecessary. Like I said, it's not that he killed Robb (although surely, I wish it didn't happen), but how he killed him, and what happened to his honor after the fact.

See, there is no explanation of plot device or character twist that will be seen to me as reasonable concerning Robb's demise. There was no reason to hack and mutilate his body like that. It was Martin's decision, regardless of how evil his antagonists were in this situation. It was ultimately Martin's decision to do that to Robb, and it was an uncouth one.

"Why please your fans?" There are tons of fan-pleasers in the books, just because you only cared about one single character, who didn't even have a single POV, and when he is killed off, you say martin is some kind of sadistic douchebag.. your point of view on this is just so biased that it hurts..

I will make no argument stating my POV isn't biased, as obviously I am very upset as a Robb fan. Yet I do care about other characters, which is why I stated that I'm sticking with the series despite my misgivings for its author. I have much hope in and love for Jon Snow, and I think that Theon's story is incredibly interesting--I have a fleeting hope that he might yet redeem himself before his death, if it comes. I also favor Edmure Tully, who thankfully was spared of the RW.

And in Georges own words "Art isn't a democracy". He didn't create these series to please anyone but himself, it's his stories, not yours..

Certainly, yet I daresay that it's understandable people who have invested time in his story would be upset at such an event, and be vocal about it.

Robb will come back .... either from the dead or from the dungeons of the twins...

wait and watch...

I hope you're right, though at this moment I hold no such hope...

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See, there is no explanation of plot device or character twist that will be seen to me as reasonable concerning Robb's demise. There was no reason to hack and mutilate his body like that. It was Martin's decision, regardless of how evil his antagonists were in this situation. It was ultimately Martin's decision to do that to Robb, and it was an uncouth one.

Thanks for the reply, also I gotta apologize for having a pretty harsh tone in my last comment, it was pretty uncalled for I guess.

I agree there is no clear explanation of plot device or character twist for killing Robb off, that's true. But he might have been doomed from day one, to make place for Jon perhaps? Or whoever else it might be. It's yet to be seen.

I for one really love the Red Wedding. At the time when I read it, I was in shock and really didn't fancy the situation.

But with the return of Catelyn stark as Lady Stoneheart and

the whole situation that followed the Red Wedding just opened up for alot more than just the war of the Starks against the Lannisters, atleast for me it did. Personally I like that George stepped away even further from the stereotypical Good (Stark) vs Evil (Lannister) etc.

And I mean, I love how Cat and Robb dies (Sounds really really horrible - believe it or not Im actually a Stark fan). It's brutal and horrible, but it's so exiciting at the same time and it's very powerful and bold. And what they do to his body after he is dead is just taking an extreme even further, I personally really liked that. (Not saying I always want more extreme, the Robb case wasn't THAT bad in my eyes, and it also is kind of poetic you know? The king in the north with a wolves head and a crown upon his head.

Anyway.. that's how I view the situation.

Btw, as I read the books it became more and more clear that the person who is the most like Robb and Ned is actually Davos Seaworth. I freaking love that guy. Dont you?

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Thanks for the reply, also I gotta apologize for having a pretty harsh tone in my last comment, it was pretty uncalled for I guess.

It's okay, and I thank you as well for the reply - I'm happy to be conversing about this with other fans. Again, we differ on outlook concerning the RW. No part of me can find pleasure in Robb's demise.

Btw, as I read the books it became more and more clear that the person who is the most like Robb and Ned is actually Davos Seaworth. I freaking love that guy. Dont you?

Yeah! I love Davos. He does exemplify those qualities so prevalent in the Starks. I also really like Stannis--I fear for his fate. But, regardless of what happens to those characters, it won't measure up to Robb's death, at least not for me.

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It gets better over time, do not worry. This is a very minor spoiler for the latest book, but the excuse that the Freys give for killing Robb is just so utterly pathetic that it's funny. They claimed that Robb turned into a wolf and started attacking people for no reason other than that he could.

Agreed.

For OP, why they did that wolf head thing? They did it because of that stupid tale :D

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It gets better over time, do not worry. This is a very minor spoiler for the latest book, but the excuse that the Freys give for killing Robb is just so utterly pathetic that it's funny. They claimed that Robb turned into a wolf and started attacking people for no reason other than that he could.

I also found that part hilarious. The gaul of it

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Unlike Vergo, though (seemingly indicated by your more recent posts), I can't forgive Martin for what he does to Robb. The fact that the "Red Wedding" happened and Robb was massacred was bad enough, but to have Grey Wind's head sewn atop his dead, mangled corpse? I sincerely think that this is not good and crafty authorship as much as it is Martin gloating over the fact that he is a sick-minded individual with a powerful pen.

Thanks for this whole reply man, it was great to read.

Now that I have almost a good three month retrospect of how I felt, it's very easy to see the trap that you, me, and I'm sure a ton of other people fall for: We always look for the hero, the main protagonist, of the whole thing.

Short answer: A Song of Ice and Fire doesn't have one.

Long Answer: When you read Lord of the Rings, or Harry Potter, you know EXACTLY who the main hero is you're rooting for during the entire series. You know it's Frodo, and you know it's Harry. It's obvious, and you expect that, ultimately, they will win. That's how these book series usually end up.

Now, for us, coming off of book series like these, we go into ASoIaF with the same expectations. I'll try to explain it bit by bit.

In GoT, we obviously get attached to Eddard, first and foremost. He's the first character that we REALLY get into the mind of (I know Bran has the first chapter, but Eddard gets much more in terms of development and plot), so, naturally, we see him as the "main character" of the series. And, to a certain extent, this is kind of true. For the first book. As soon as Martin kills him off, you know that this guy is quite a different author from Tolkein in the character-killing department. But, we're able to get past it, the first time he kills the "main" character. Why's that? Because it is INCREDIBLY easy to see why Eddard had to die in order for the entire rest of the series to even take place. If Ned had lived, the War of the Five Kings wouldn't even have five kings. In fact, Stannis probably would've marched his way to the throne right then and there, and everything would've been peachy. But, if the conflict and actual plot was going to happen, the "main" character had to die.

So, we're left with a void when we get to ACoK. Now, I know we have Tyrion, Dany, and Jon. Hell, we have Arya if that's really what your favorite is. But, to the person that got attached to Eddard in GoT, these can't really be promoted to "main character"..... First, Tyrion is obviously allied with the "bad guys", the ones who killed the "main character". Oh yeah, he's definitely VERY different from Cersei and Tywin, but he's still with them, plotting the end of the Starks. Dany is miles away, doing nothing that immediately affects the status of Westeros (I'm very aware that Dany has her own story and such, but for the first three books, it's hardly connected to any other POV at all), so we can't really have her take Eddard's place. And finally, there's Jon.... I have a very specific opinion on why I never thought of his as a main character for the first three books, so take this with a grain of salt: We don't have anyone directly going against Jon. You can't have a hero if he isn't fighting something or someone. Yeah, we have wildlings and Others, I get that...... But it's NEVER about Jon vs Wildlings, or Jon vs Others. It's always the Night's Watch, going against very dangerous, but very non-unique, threats. So, because Jon isn't fighting against a recognizable enemy that we've grown to hate, he can't immediately be the "main character".

But Robb fills Eddard's shoes perfectly. He picks up right where Ned left off - going to kick Lannister ass because of what they've done to Robert, Jon Arryn, and Eddard Stark. You wanted Eddard to stay alive and take it to the Lannisters? Robb's doing it. And he's winning. The Lannister's are SO easy to see as the "bad guys", because they do some awful stuff, and they killed the "main character", who we like. So, because Robb picks up Eddard's previous role perfectly, and because his opposition is very well established and fleshed out, the choice is obvious - Robb is the hero of this whole thing. And together with the HBO series, we fall into the generic fantasy trap of now rooting for the "true" main character, who is OBVIOUSLY going to win in the end, because the heroes always win. But, unfortunately, the short reply above still exists, despite all that - there's no main character, and there's no heroes.

So my advice for you, my friend, is to yes, be sad that your favorite character died, and that the hero role is vacant again. But, remember all the other characters we have.... Jon becomes SO much bigger in the last part of ASoS, Dany grows truly powerful with her army and dragons, Stannis hatches a good plot with Davos to gain an upper-hand, Tyrion falls COMPLETELY out of favor with this family and does some awesome things..... There's just so much more to this world than Robb trying to avenge his father's death. And as comfort, remember that the Starks are down, but not out. Arya is going to become absolutely lethal when she finishes her training, Sansa is becoming a master tactician while she's out of harms way, Bran is becoming the most skilled skin-changer ever, and Rickon is.... Growing up. Honestly, Rickon could very well be the light in the darkness for you. Once he grows up big and strong, he'll be just like Eddard and Robb, ready to avenge his fallen family, I'll bet you that.

EDIT: And I understand 100% how you feel about what they did to Robb's corpse. It was truly gruesome and horrifying, and I'm somewhat dreading seeing it in the next episode of the HBO series. But it's important to realize why Martin included that detail, and I have two guesses for it. First, is obviously what you mentioned: You won't forget it. Martin wanted to craft a terrible even that would stick with you, and that final image does it perfectly. Second..... I think he wants us completely and utterly PISSED OFF AT THE BOLTONS AND FREYS. And you know what? THAT PISSES US OFF MORE THAN THE ACTUAL DEATH. And, it would appear that both of those houses are totally going to get what's coming to them in the near future, ala Lady Stoneheart and Stannis. So, get pissed off. And know that the ones who did that terrible act are getting whats coming to them very soon.

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What's so "hilarious" about it?

Like I said, the gaul of it. It would be like someone claiming a group of babies attacked him/her so they had no choice but to kill them. Dark and despicable, but funny at the same time because it's such a ridiculous lie.

And btw, you are being very unfair to GRRM. Calling him a "sick" person is totally uncalled for, and hypocritical since you are apparently sticking with the books. If you don't like his writing, you have the freedom to stop paying for it. Where were you when Gregor Clegane smashed Aegon's head against the wall and raped/murdered Elia? Where were you when the Tickler tortured innocent villagers to death? When Cersei ordered the bastards killed? When Ramsay starved Lady Hornwood? You can't brush off all the other atrocities and then call foul when it happens to a character you like

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What's so "hilarious" about it?

It shows people that even the sickest, most twisted individual, who would invite someone into his home and kill him while he ate can be, no, are often some of the most pathetic, slimy individuals you will meet. It's a sort of dark humor, yes I will admit, but I still find it quite funny.

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Ugh…why couldn't Robb have been poisoned? Why couldn't the "Red Wedding" instead be written for Joffrey on his wedding day? Clearly, fans of Robb Stark would have been somewhat appeased. But no, of course not. Why please your fans? Martin's no more realistic than Potter, and Sam Huxley sums up my feelings exactly on this so-called "realism":

Of course he is more realistic than Potter, or at least his story has less logic flaws and holes than JKR's.

Anyway Red Wedding is probably part of some bigger plan, it was foreshadowed in prophecies to many times to ignore it.

To me, there was nothing brave about Robb's fate. It was humiliating and unnecessary. Like I said, it's not that he killed Robb (although surely, I wish it didn't happen), but how he killed him, and what happened to his honor after the fact.

Nothing happened. Robb died. His honour remained as it was. Head-swapping was Frey idea, and it didn't destroyed anyone's honor. Robb's because he was dead, and Frey's because he'd lost it already.

Anyway many saints, many martyrs of faith died in terrible way and after all murderers did some bad things to their bodies.

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Well, that's the good thing about the books and series you can't predict it. I was annoyed when I saw the red wedding scene and I was traumatised but I am now devouring the books again after getting a bit fed-up of reading them. I was going to watch a series then read a book but after that I can't anymore. I need to know.

I think you can either accept the brutality and the characters being killed of and need to know what happens next or you can't Lord of the rings and harry potter don't have that brutal aspect, few characters die, I know Harry Potter has some major deaths in the end but that's the end. Really they are happy stories of good vs. evil. A song of ice and fire is not meant to be like that.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Rickon is.... Growing up. Honestly, Rickon could very well be the light in the darkness for you. Once he grows up big and strong, he'll be just like Eddard and Robb, ready to avenge his fallen family, I'll bet you that.

EDIT: And I understand 100% how you feel about what they did to Robb's corpse. It was truly gruesome and horrifying, and I'm somewhat dreading seeing it in the next episode of the HBO series. But it's important to realize why Martin included that detail, and I have two guesses for it. First, is obviously what you mentioned: You won't forget it. Martin wanted to craft a terrible even that would stick with you, and that final image does it perfectly. Second..... I think he wants us completely and utterly PISSED OFF AT THE BOLTONS AND FREYS. And you know what? THAT PISSES US OFF MORE THAN THE ACTUAL DEATH. And, it would appear that both of those houses are totally going to get what's coming to them in the near future, ala Lady Stoneheart and Stannis. So, get pissed off. And know that the ones who did that terrible act are getting whats coming to them very soon.

Thank you also for the reply, sir...I feel a kindred spirit even through internet walls! I apologize for my tardiness--I've kept away from the forums since that dreaded day on June 2 (which happens to be my birthday, by the way--worst birthday ever.)

You make a ton of sense and I completely see your logic...great points on Ned's death, and the subsequent efforts of Robb to avenge his father, who we were all rooting for. Your points stand by themselves, no doubt, but for me I never consciously favored Eddard, it was Robb all along. But you could say that if having Ned as hero was supposed to attach one to the Starks, then clearly it worked. Although that particular circumstance (moving from Ned to Robb) doesn't apply to me specifically, it's a fantastic analysis, nonetheless.

Also great points on Jon, I think that makes a lot of sense. Though I always saw him as a "main" character, you hit the nail on the head concerning his trials and tribulations, and how they don't really match up (at least in ACoK) to the trials Robb is facing in his war.

But...I'm still bitter, and still disgusted. As the grisly details of Robb's demise haunted my thoughts/dreams over the last few months (which, like I said, no doubt GRRM's aim...to my chagrin) and then seeing the brutality on HBO, I have just tried to suppress my sadness, in differing ways. I know it's extreme, but I found myself not even that interested in the last episode (and consequentially, the later ASoIaF books) without Robb, knowing the hellish horrors he (and his corpse) faced. I'm still sullen about it, though perhaps I've become somewhat numb. Granted, I cannot deny that I became *too* attached to one character in such a dangerous series, but it's how I feel. It's why I should stick to stories like The Lord of the Rings, and why I probably won't be so thrilled about the next GoT season...

It's funny you mention Rickon growing up to be like Robb & Ned. I was thinking that, too. Although I doubt I'll stick with the series 'til the end, I sincerely hope that Rickon avenges Robb and proves himself to be like his older brother was. I do like Bran and Jon, I'll always be curious as to what will happen with them--but after Robb, it's kind of like I'm reluctant to get attached.

And btw' date=' you are being very unfair to GRRM. Calling him a "sick" person is totally uncalled for, and hypocritical since you are apparently sticking with the books. If you don't like his writing, you have the freedom to stop paying for it. Where were you when Gregor Clegane smashed Aegon's head against the wall and raped/murdered Elia? Where were you when the Tickler tortured innocent villagers to death? When Cersei ordered the bastards killed? When Ramsay starved Lady Hornwood? You can't brush off all the other atrocities and then call foul when it happens to a character you like [/quote']

We all have our opinions, and that is mine. What started for me as a great journey into ASoIaF has ended, and I'm not sure if I'll fall under what you deem "hypocrite" in saying that I probably won't stick with the books. I don't even know if I'll be into Season 4 of the HBO series. We'll see when the time comes.

Please understand that I'm not bad-mouthing your favorite author as somebody who didn't care about the series. I did. I was mainly into Robb's story-line, but Theon Greyjoy is brilliantly written, and like I stated earlier I like Bran and Jon. And, although I don't agree with GRRM's decisions, I certainly admire him for what he created in Westeros. It sucked me in at first, after all. That doesn't mean I have to like him by any means, nor is it cause to forgive him for butchering Robb.

I suppose you are right about Robb's honor. Thanks for the reply.

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well, as for likeability, Robb is likeable enough. But he has as many flaws as anyone else. Carstark gave his sons to Robb and his cause. They are related. Carstark is 100% behind Robb. They killed a Lannister of no significance. So send him home from the war. He won't get any more honor from battle. But no. Hang all the people involved? Take Carstark's head? Alienate his house? Marry Westerling, alienating the twins? 12 knights for 1000? He said himself he made a right mess of things.

If rickard karstark betrayed ned then what do you think ned would have done? i think ned would have busted out ice and beheaded karstark just like robb did. robb is his liege lord and for karstark to kill two innocent boy hostages when sansa is still in the hands of the lannisters puts her at risk. karstark is a douche, his two sons died in battle and he still had his eldest son alive. for him two get his so called vengeance by killing two boys makes his death deserving i dont care if they are kin.

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I don't understand how it happened. Surely someone must have blabbed about it and told someone? I mean; Roose will have told his own men and the Karstark men that were with him from Harrenhall who didn't abandon the cause, but surely after fighting in the Riverlands for such a long time they will have made friends among Stark men, or any other northern house. If you knew you'd warn your friend to keep away from the feast tents outside.

roose bolton sent men from numerous houses including karstark,tallhart,glover,hornwood, and cerwyn to duskendale and kept his own men with him at harrenhal. bolton sent pretty much every stark loyalist that wasn't with robb to be decimated leaving only robb's 3,500 he had with him on the way to the twins and the unknown amount he sent with maege mormont and galbart glover to greywater watch. i'm sure only roose's men knew about his actual plans to betray robb at the red wedding

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