How long had Tyrion known about the incest?

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

He expands effort to keep a psychopath on the throne, participates in Tywin's Rains of Castamere over the Starks, and advocates Lannister values - despite the deception his inner dialogue might present to readers.

It's true, Tyrion's loyalty to his family creates unfavorable situations not only for those around him, but for Tyrion as well. Tyrion recognizes this, although he doesn't do anything about it. He allows things to spiral out of control and doesn't stand up to his family until they turn on him. It still doesn't mean that his concern for others outside of his family isn't genuine. His loyalty to his family and his concern for others outside his family is what made Tyrion an interesting read, for me.

I wouldn't consider his inner dialogue to be a deception for readers. It's his inner dialogue and the purpose of his inner dialogue is to show us his true feelings. If we can't trust Tyrion's inner dialogue, that creates a serious issue with other characters in the series. A person's actions can go against their inner dialogue, without their inner dialogue being false. If the reader cannot separate Tyrion's inner dialogue from his actions, that could create a serious dilemma; but I think it's known that although Tyrion has good intentions and regrets some of his actions, he does some very bad things to others.

[SeanF]

I don't see how one could expect Tyrion to do anything else than stick by his family.

[Woman of War]

expecting tyrion to go to the starks and turn in his brother, who he just finished discussing as the only one to show him affection or respect, is completely ludicrous. and even if his relationship with jaime wasn't so strong, asking him to turn in a member of his immediate family is truly asking a great deal. there is no one in this series who is asked this and delivers up a loved one. no one. well, there is stannis but that's a whole other story....

jon's nissa, I agree

It's true, Tyrion's loyalty to his family creates unfavorable situations not only for those around him, but for Tyrion as well. Tyrion recognizes this, although he doesn't do anything about it. He allows things to spiral out of control and doesn't stand up to his family until they turn on him. It still doesn't mean that his concern for others outside of his family isn't genuine. His loyalty to his family and his concern for others outside his family is what made Tyrion an interesting read, for me.

I wouldn't consider his inner dialogue to be a deception for readers. It's his inner dialogue and the purpose of his inner dialogue is to show us his true feelings. If we can't trust Tyrion's inner dialogue, that creates a serious issue with other characters in the series. A person's actions can go against their inner dialogue, without their inner dialogue being false. If the reader cannot separate Tyrion's inner dialogue from his actions, that could create a serious dilemma; but I think it's known that although Tyrion has good intentions and regrets some of his actions, he does some very bad things to others.

Very well said

[DirePenguin]

What kind of smile is a smile the "curdle like sour milk" by the way? Would you imagine the smile disappearing? Or stiffened, like milk turning rigid?

[Starks Among Us]

Which is why I stated, "I do not believe that he is a false friend to the Starks, since he shows genuine concern for them. I do believe that his loyalty to his family puts limitations on his relationships with others, as evidenced by his actions.

I believe that the things Tyrion did for the Starks were genuine and not done to illicit favor, nor to be sneaky or under-handed; but his loyalty to his family placed restrictions on the lengths he would go to help others. Tyrion showed genuine remorse for Sansa and her plight and helped in the ways he felt he could, although his loyalty to his family prevented him from releasing her.

I also know the chapter, as it is one of my favorites. The dynamic between Tyrion, Cersei, and Jaime is a joy to read.

For starters, I never stated that I felt any paragraph opposed your reading. As I stated, it is a matter of opinion, because your understanding of the text is based on your reading of the text, especially when it come to interpreting a characters emotions. The text that supports my viewpoint will also always support your viewpoint as well, it all depends on how we choose to view the text.

There's the conversation between Joffrey, Sandor, and Tyrion in the yard. Joffrey and Sandor are discussing Bran and Summer. They are basically making light conversation about Bran dying quickly, and Sandor killing Summer due to the noise the direwolf pup has been making since Bran's fall. Tyrion arrives and promptly insults Joffrey. I always felt that Tyrion insulted him because he was not impressed about the conversation he overheard between Joffrey and Sandor, plus he thinks Joffrey is a horrible human being. Tyrion then tells Joffrey to go offer his comfort to the Starks in reference to Bran's fall. It can be argued that Tyrion only wanted Joffrey to show his face to further advert Lannister suspicion, but I disagree. I believe that the conversation beforehand, and Tyrion feeling that Joffrey is a walking/talking example of why Bran was pushed from the window, upset Tyrion; and that is why he told Joffrey to go offer his comfort to the Starks. In my view, this was further confirmed by Tyrion slapping Joffrey for his insolence.

Then there is the breakfast conversation:

In my view, Tyrion does not view Bran's fall or Robert's reaction as a laughing matter, but forgives Jaime because...well, he's Jaime. We also see a part of the reasoning behind why Tyrion supports Jaime in mostly all things, and why Tyrion is able to forgive Jaime.

I do not believe that Tyrion only stopped by the room to see if Bran had died, or if Bran was sure to die for the sake of his siblings. I believe that Tyrion stopped by the room because he had genuine concern for Bran and wanted to show his respects.

In my view, Tyrion was basically saying, "Yep, I know what you did and I know why you did it, and you may not get away with it this time, dear sister."

The rest of the conversation was much of the same, especially the end.

In my view, Jaime was confident that Tyrion was on their side until Tyrion basically said, "You guys may finally get caught." Tyrion then reassures him by implying, "I should tell, but I won't betray mine own family."

You may disagree with my opinion on the matter as I disagree with yours; but no where in the text does it explicitly state that Tyrion does not care about what happened to Bran, or that Tyrion cares about what happened to Bran. It is all based on reader interpretation, and it is left to the reader to form their own opinion.

I also feel that Tyrion's gift to Bran, while given at the insistence of Jon, was still a way for Tyrion to show his regret about what happened to Bran. He could have simply came back and gave Bran a message from Jon and some good words, but Tyrion went out of his way to form plans for a saddle.

Yes, Tyrion covers his emotions well with jokes, sarcasm, and arrogance, but I feel that they are there. I do not believe that he is similar to Ned and Davos, but he is not as bad as many other characters in the series.

I have enjoyed reading your posts and I agree! Good job!

[mushroomshirt]

<snip>

<presses the imaginary like button> very well said

Tyrion seems like the quintessential GRRM character. In fact Martin himself has said that Tyrion is his favorite character to write, IIRC.

Tyrion does lots of good things and lots of bad things. He is the paradigm of the "grey" character. To try to say that he is a bad person because he is part of a Lannister conspiracy which would be illegal in the 21st century USA trivializes him and makes him a lot less interesting.

And back to the OP: I think Tyrion is too smart not to have known about Jaime and Cersei from the very beginning.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

I have enjoyed reading your posts and I agree! Good job!

<presses the imaginary like button> very well said

Tyrion seems like the quintessential GRRM character. In fact Martin himself has said that Tyrion is his favorite character to write, IIRC.

Tyrion does lots of good things and lots of bad things. He is the paradigm of the "grey" character. To try to say that he is a bad person because he is part of a Lannister conspiracy which would be illegal in the 21st century USA trivializes him and makes him a lot less interesting.

And back to the OP: I think Tyrion is too smart not to have known about Jaime and Cersei from the very beginning.

Thank you, to both of you.

I fully agree. Trivializing Tyrion as simply a 'secret' bad guy takes a lot from his character. From his introduction throughout the rest of the series, I have enjoyed analyzing and fully immersing myself in his character. He is one of the "grayest" characters in the series, and his inner monologue can be both heartbreaking and infuriating. Dang...I really want the next book to come out asap! :laugh:

[FittleLinger]

Thank you, to both of you.

I fully agree. Trivializing Tyrion as simply a 'secret' bad guy takes a lot from his character. From his introduction throughout the rest of the series, I have enjoyed analyzing and fully immersing myself in his character. He is one of the "grayest" characters in the series, and his inner monologue can be both heartbreaking and infuriating. Dang...I really want the next book to come out asap! :laugh:

I agree with your previous extensive post, Tippy, and I also want to say that I agree with the quoted one very much, and I blame mainstream TV and books culture. You know, with the good guys, bad guys, and the occasional incredible plot twist of the "secret bad guy". They have planted the very unheathy idea in the audience that everything should be exactly defined. "What is the author trying to tell us - is he good, bad?".

I mean, I work in a TV series, and it's awful - focus groups, reasearch of what people want to watch, do they like this guy, that guy... It has taken so much from good storytelling, essentially everything is like a reality TV show where the audience send overpriced texts where they say who should leave the show and who should stay.

The author just revealing a human character with all his flaws - this is past (and thanks to ASOIAF and GOT show - still present, somehow). People want to watch Superman defeat Zod, which is very sad...

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

I agree with your previous extensive post, Tippy, and I also want to say that I agree with the quoted one very much, and I blame mainstream TV and books culture. You know, with the good guys, bad guys, and the occasional incredible plot twist of the "secret bad guy". They have planted the very unheathy idea in the audience that everything should be exactly defined. "What is the author trying to tell us - is he good, bad?".

I mean, I work in a TV series, and it's awful - focus groups, reasearch of what people want to watch, do they like this guy, that guy... It has taken so much from good storytelling, essentially everything is like a reality TV show where the audience send overpriced texts where they say who should leave the show and who should stay.

The author just revealing a human character with all his flaws - this is past (and thanks to ASOIAF and GOT show - still present, somehow). People want to watch Superman defeat Zod, which is very sad...

Yes, and it is extremely sad.

And the gods help you if you have empathy for the "bad guy". I don't think GRRM has a secret dark twist for Tyrion, and I believe that everything Tyrion has done has been reasonable given the path of his character, I haven't really questioned any of his actions, or seen any of his actions as despicable.

I prefer having flawed characters, because it makes the story so much richer. I also don't feel the need to place characters in a "good" or "bad" bin, it is enough for me to discuss their actions and the consequences of those actions.

[nekrohsis]

Exactly. Tyrion's put in a difficult situation re: the incest, and reacts as a decent family member should, keeping it quiet. He couldn't stop it. Frankly, I don't get why some people bash Tyrion as much as they do.

[They see me R'hollin]

That's a slightly skewered way of saying that Tyrion is a product of a society where being good to your family is perceived as crucial to what being good means. It's certainly not as sympathetic in lieu of our modern standards, but I find it a little unfair to condemn Tyrion specifically for this viewpoint in a setting where 99% of the characters champion the very same ideal.

OT: I gather Tyrion knew as soon as he was old enough to understand what was going on. It's more than implied Jaime knew of this: I believe Jaime recalls that during the journey to Winterfell, where Jaime was so miserable because he couldn't bang the queen when her husband was there, Tyrion did his best to lighten his spirits. That would certainly suggest that Tyrion not only knew of the incest, he had a mutual understanding with Jaime about this knowledge.

Really? What chapt. is that? Can you recall?