Ame Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 I have doubts about the supposed last good Lannister and here is why.1. "now that's not true he has his mother, and despite your appeal for sympathy his father to"If he knew why not tell Tywin and try to stop that before it caused a war of Five Kings or at least help to hide it better so people like Varys or Littlefinger wouldn't find out? Doing nothing was about as bad as it got; even if it hurt Tywin or made him an accessory to treason he had to do something and didn't.2. "but she had grown into a greedy woman"Her ambition is what made her bad? In other words he doesn't know about any of the evil things Cersei did with Qyburn right there and no doubt plenty of mutilated people who attended the pro-Targ rally. No investigation about what Cersei did? No suspicion that she has an evil genius still loyal to her? No suspicion about all those dissapearing women?3. "Brotherfucker" "Half where yelling insults at her half giving cat whistles"He thinks that helps shore up Tommens legitimacy? The queen mother being exposed as a whore and her looks brought down to just like any other woman helps Tommen with his devine right and gives the public the perception that Stannis and everyone else is wrong?4. "the wickedness of widows is well known"A Sparrow who is sexist enough to think sex crimes are to be expected isn't the mastermind behind the walk of shame; Kevan didn't just agree to it; is he not able to come up with any better ideas to remove Cersei preferably ones that don't hurt the entire house?5. "you promoted a great deal of people beyond their station based on poor advice which I hope will be corrected"Either politeness or considering it was his pov not Cersei's and we see him not thinking of any crime Cersei commits he still thinks she was manipulated.He is supposed to be the best Lannister hope in ADwD but he comes across as indecisive, and too sentimental to investigate his niece and be equipted with the knowledge needed to help her and his family, and he doesn't realize Cersei has done anything evil despite all her crimes in AFfC and thinks Qyburn is loyal to him and not her, and suggested te WoS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mulled Wino Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Absolutely yes. He lets the small council chastise Red Ronnet like fools. Dumbest thing ever.He lets Cersei start making demands.He seriously considers Lancel for the KG.all in one chapter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mulled Wino Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Absolutely yes. He lets the small council chastise Red Ronnet like fools. Dumbest thing ever.He lets Cersei start making demand, with TaennaHe seriously considers Lancel for the KG.all in one chapter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armidil0 Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Does it matter? He was important for about 5 minutes before he got the Tywin treatment (w/out the crapper).He just seems like a guy. That's why people liked him as the best Lannister. Everyone else was morally bankrupt, he wasn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlQohoric Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 I think people started liking Kevan after he told Cersei to shove it in AFFC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jslay427 Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 He was a dutiful younger brother which he has in common with Stannis, and I do think his personality wouldn't be able to condone the wanton butchering that Tywin ordered without any qualms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otherbeef Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 1. "now that's not true he has his mother, and despite your appeal for sympathy his father to"If he knew why not tell Tywin and try to stop that before it caused a war of Five Kings or at least help to hide it better so people like Varys or Littlefinger wouldn't find out? Doing nothing was about as bad as it got; even if it hurt Tywin or made him an accessory to treason he had to do something and didn't.We don't know if Kevan knew about Cersei/Jaime before the War of the Five Kings. Plus not much he could really do to hide it, Varys and LF would find out anyway.2. "but she had grown into a greedy woman"Her ambition is what made her bad? In other words he doesn't know about any of the evil things Cersei did with Qyburn right there and no doubt plenty of mutilated people who attended the pro-Targ rally. No investigation about what Cersei did? No suspicion that she has an evil genius still loyal to her? No suspicion about all those dissapearing women?Her ambition certainly didn't help things and are arguably what drove her to such madness in the first place. Why would he just know about what Qyburn does though? I'm sure he does have suspicions but again, not much he can really do.3. "Brotherfucker" "Half where yelling insults at her half giving cat whistles"He thinks that helps shore up Tommens legitimacy? The queen mother being exposed as a whore and her looks brought down to just like any other woman helps Tommen with his devine right and gives the public the perception that Stannis and everyone else is wrong?4. "the wickedness of widows is well known"A Sparrow who is sexist enough to think sex crimes are to be expected isn't the mastermind behind the walk of shame; Kevan didn't just agree to it; is he not able to come up with any better ideas to remove Cersei preferably ones that don't hurt the entire house?The walk of shame was primarily the work of the faith right? Maybe he agreed to it, but you criticize his decision making without offering a better solution.5. "you promoted a great deal of people beyond their station based on poor advice which I hope will be corrected"Either politeness or considering it was his pov not Cersei's and we see him not thinking of any crime Cersei commits he still thinks she was manipulated.She did promote people beyond their station, Littlefinger, Aurane Waters, Slynt, to name a few. Besides we know Kevan doesn't think too highly of Cersei considering his discussions with her about how she will never rule again, how she is responsible for the monster that Joffrey became, etc. Just because he doesn't come out and say it doesn't mean he doesn't think about it.Also, people like Kevan because of Varys' whole speech at the end. He is competent, he made peace with his allies the Tyrells like a sane person. He puts Cersei down a notch like she needs to be and seems like a pretty loyal guy in general. If you criticize him for anything, it should be him following Tywin so blindly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techelles Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 I think people started liking Kevan after he told Cersei to shove it in AFFC.That certainly helped. Really, though, I don't think there was ever any hype about Kevan. I've never heard anyone (in-story or otherwise) make any grand claims about him. He wasn't brilliant; he was simply reasonably competent, and we've never seen him do anything crazy, stupid, or cruel. (Although I guess in ASOIAF terms that does make him kinda special.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Mac Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Kevan had his shit together. He was literally killed for being competent. Also, he doesn't seem to have the cruel streak that Tywin had. He seemed a dutiful and loving father and brother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daario's*before*Snows Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Mostly he is viewed as Tywin's Yes Man.By DWDs he looks like a genius in comparison to the other politicians in KL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciglon Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Some readers may have felt sorry for him, living in Tywin's shadow and worshiping him all his life, then having his son go all religious fanatic on him, and sucking at a job he is honestly trying his best at.I would guess that not many people find him competent in the extreme, but rather admire his motives, which are not totally unworthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Only # 3 is valid.#1: We don't know when he came to suspect the twins, and he doesn't know for sure. He is trying to get under her skin in that scene#2: What are you trying to say here? That Cersei isn't greedy? It's clear she is incompetent even if you don't know about her atrocities, most of which come from greed/ambition.#4: No one minded "sexism" in the Middle Ages. And Kevan didn't say it#5: Again, you don't really say anything here. He's calling Cersei out for surrounding herself with Kettleblacks and Qyburn, that's all. Very legit criticisms, seeing as Qyburn is a mad sadist and disgraced maester and the Kettleblacks are rogues who fight for the highest bidder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ame Posted February 28, 2013 Author Share Posted February 28, 2013 My point about the ambition is that that wouldn't be a problem if she was competent and he doesn't adress the issues she is wrong in his mind her problem is just that she has ambition.The point about the sexism is the Sparrow was sexist enough not to think Cersei's promiscuity is a big deal; the idea came from Kevan and he feels guilty about it.My point on promoting people above their station is Kevan both says and is thinking that her problem is the advice she received. He should have done enough investigating to see that she came up with her dumb ideas all by herself.He allows sentimentality to shield Cersei from her real negatives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kittykatknits Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 He was a dutiful younger brother which he has in common with Stannis, and I do think his personality wouldn't be able to condone the wanton butchering that Tywin ordered without any qualms.He knew about the wanton butchering. Kevan s the one who organized the rape and burning of the Riverlands, not Tywin. It's right there in a Tyrion GOT chapter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mulled Wino Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Kevean acknowledges that Ser Robert is Qyburns creature and knows that he's not a knight, and is most likely undead. Cersei hired Qyburn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 He knew about the wanton butchering. Kevan s the one who organized the rape and burning of the Riverlands, not Tywin. It's right there in a Tyrion GOT chapter.Lannisters gonna Lannister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ObsidiaNPhoenix Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 People sympathized with Kevan because he was nothing more than Tywin's bulldog and never got to fully express himself. He also tended to be harsher against the characters people love to hate like Cersei which earned him points. He was just a dutiful follower who did the best he could, but that ended up killing him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Crow Come Over Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 I have doubts about the supposed last good Lannister and here is why.1. "now that's not true he has his mother, and despite your appeal for sympathy his father to"If he knew why not tell Tywin and try to stop that before it caused a war of Five Kings or at least help to hide it better so people like Varys or Littlefinger wouldn't find out? Doing nothing was about as bad as it got; even if it hurt Tywin or made him an accessory to treason he had to do something and didn't.2. "but she had grown into a greedy woman"Her ambition is what made her bad? In other words he doesn't know about any of the evil things Cersei did with Qyburn right there and no doubt plenty of mutilated people who attended the pro-Targ rally. No investigation about what Cersei did? No suspicion that she has an evil genius still loyal to her? No suspicion about all those dissapearing women?3. "Brotherfucker" "Half where yelling insults at her half giving cat whistles"He thinks that helps shore up Tommens legitimacy? The queen mother being exposed as a whore and her looks brought down to just like any other woman helps Tommen with his devine right and gives the public the perception that Stannis and everyone else is wrong?4. "the wickedness of widows is well known"A Sparrow who is sexist enough to think sex crimes are to be expected isn't the mastermind behind the walk of shame; Kevan didn't just agree to it; is he not able to come up with any better ideas to remove Cersei preferably ones that don't hurt the entire house?5. "you promoted a great deal of people beyond their station based on poor advice which I hope will be corrected"Either politeness or considering it was his pov not Cersei's and we see him not thinking of any crime Cersei commits he still thinks she was manipulated.He is supposed to be the best Lannister hope in ADwD but he comes across as indecisive, and too sentimental to investigate his niece and be equipted with the knowledge needed to help her and his family, and he doesn't realize Cersei has done anything evil despite all her crimes in AFfC and thinks Qyburn is loyal to him and not her, and suggested te WoS.This is litterally the first post I've seen about Kevan, period, so I don't think he's 'over hyped'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Flowers Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 That certainly helped. Really, though, I don't think there was ever any hype about Kevan. I've never heard anyone (in-story or otherwise) make any grand claims about him. He wasn't brilliant; he was simply reasonably competent, and we've never seen him do anything crazy, stupid, or cruel. (Although I guess in ASOIAF terms that does make him kinda special.)Very nicely put. "Like." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arrein The Only Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 I think Kevan was just trying to survive in a world he knew wouldn't allow him to live if he didn't play by the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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