The strength of Great Houses compared to their bannermen.

[BaseBornBastard]

In most cases, as you'd imagine, Great Houses are the most powerful Houses in their respective Kingdoms and exert dominance over their Noble Houses. A prime example is that House Lannister seems to be by far the most powerful House in the Westerlands. However, this isn't always the case. There are several Kingdoms in which the Great House are not necessarily the most powerful. I believe House Hightower and House Manderly to be more powerful than House Tyrell and House Stark. I've always thought of these two Noble Houses as the "sleeping giants" of the series. Do you think there are other examples of this in other Kingdoms? Do you think House Martell is the most powerful in Dorne? House Baratheon in the Stormlands? etc.

[Fat Mac]

Well the advantage the Great Lord has is that it can call the swords from its bannermen, always giving it a numerical advantage. It is the same advantage a King has. For instance, the swords directly sworn to King's Landing are completely outnumbered by those sworn to a Great Lord.

So in this case, the Great Lord does not always have more men directly sworn to them than their bannermen. We might assume House Hightower can field more men than House Tyrell, House Manderly than House Stark, and House Harlaw than House Greyjoy. Beyond that I'm not sure.

[The Titan's Legitimate Son]

Usually, there seems to be atleast one 'rival' house in each region. This house is usually large enough on its own to command decent power, but for reasons usually explained, haven't or can't

Stark-Manderly/Bolton (Manderlys owe everything they now are to the Starks, plus no Northmen would follow a follower of the Seven/Boltons never win)

Martell-Yronwood (historical rivallry since before Rhyonnar, Yronwoods were kings at some point)

Arryn-Royce

Tyrell-Hightower

Tully-Frey (Freys have taken there chance, but will soon lose out 'cos they have shit for honour)

EDIT: Plus what Mr Motte said about other loyalties.

[TheGreyKraken]

These great houses usually tend to hold on to their power because of the vast influence they have on the area despite having less swords at their command than some of their lords.

If some of these houses with more swords rebel, they tend to lose the battle as the Great House commands the most influence and is able to conjure up more numbers than the rebel lord and eventually win.

[Rheagar Prime]

thats not really a bad thing you just need to ensure their loyalty marry in them every couple generation.

[RenlyIsNotRight]

I definitely feel like House Tyrell itself could not field as much as some of its vassal houses, particuarly Hightower, maybe Redwyne and Florent as well. I feel like House Tyrell in general relies on its vassals in a lot of ways - Redwyne for the navy, Tarly for the military command, etc. I could believe that House Manderly fields more men and is wealthier than House Stark as well. Beyond that I'm not sure. I know the Freys appear to be able to field a lot of men but perhaps thats because there are so many Freys in general.

Usually, there seems to be atleast one 'rival' house in each region. This house is usually large enough on its own to command decent power, but for reasons usually explained, haven't or can't

Stark-Manderly/Bolton (Manderlys owe everything they now are to the Starks, plus no Northmen would follow a follower of the Seven/Boltons never win)

Martell-Yronwood (historical rivallry since before Rhyonnar, Yronwoods were kings at some point)

Arryn-Royce

Tyrell-Hightower

Tully-Frey (Freys have taken there chance, but will soon lose out 'cos they have shit for honour)

In addition to all that, I'd say House Swann is essentially that in the Stormlands - they seem to be pretty formidable, and in stark contrast to House Baratheon themselves very cautious and politically minded.

I'm not as familiar with/generally not as big a fan of the Westerlands/Lannisters, but if I had to guess I'd say...maybe Marbrand could be that for them?

[Tetrarch42]

I definitely feel like House Tyrell itself could not field as much as some of its vassal houses, particuarly Hightower, maybe Redwyne and Florent as well. I feel like House Tyrell in general relies on its vassals in a lot of ways - Redwyne for the navy, Tarly for the military command, etc. I could believe that House Manderly fields more men and is wealthier than House Stark as well. Beyond that I'm not sure. I know the Freys appear to be able to field a lot of men but perhaps thats because there are so many Freys in general.

In addition to all that, I'd say House Swann is essentially that in the Stormlands - they seem to be pretty formidable, and in stark contrast to House Baratheon themselves very cautious and politically minded.

I'm not as familiar with/generally not as big a fan of the Westerlands/Lannisters, but if I had to guess I'd say...maybe Marbrand could be that for them?

The Lannisters don't have a rival house at the moment because Tywin just crushed the last two rival houses and the rest of them are likely afraid of getting the same treatment. I'm not sure why the Starks didn't do the same with the Boltons millenia ago given that they seem to have rebelled repeatedly and even flayed Stark lords alive; I guess we'll find out in TWoW.

[LucionLannister]

I think if we take individual house strength, no assuming loyalty to lords paramount, there are some lesser houses that could take their overlords, I think.

HOUSE MARTELL - House Yronwood. Arianne Martell immidiately thinks of Lord Yronwood when she thinks she might need allies against her father, and the Yronwoods were the primary power against Queen Nymeria and House Martell during their war.

HOUSE BARATHEON - We haven't seen any Stormlords who show a strong standing comapred to the Baratheons.

HOUSE TYRELL - House Hightower. The fact that they control the largest, oldest, probably wealthiest city in Westeros would give them incredible strength. Oldtown probably gives them a huge army, they probably have a fair navy (they successfully repulsed the Ironborn), and Randyll Tarly has mentionted that the Hightowers are as rich as the Lannisters, implying that they either as wealthy if not wealthier than the Tyrells.

HOUSE LANNISTER - The Lannisters don't seem to have much to worry about. They have direct control over a huge city and a huge gold mine. The only house we ever see as being a threat are the Reynes of Castamere, and they failed misrably.

HOUSE GREYJOY - This one is harder. Its definetely implied that House Harlaw is one of the strongest Houses. Asha seems confident that if she has the Harlaws, she can be queen. But Asha seemed a bit optimistic, and we really don't have anything to directly compared Harlaw and Pyke.

HOUSE TULLY - The Freys are certainly mentioned to be the Tully's most powerful bannerman. But since the Frey's never directly fight the Tullys, its hard to say if they could overpower House Tully itself.

HOUSE ARRYN - This one is hard too. The Royces of Runestone are certainly implied to be the most powerful, but they're staunchly loyal to the Eyrie. The only other House that seems like it could have a chance of taking the Arryns is House Grafton of Gulltown, but they fell pretty easily in Robert's Rebellion. But we don't know the numbers for that.

HOUSE STARK - The Manderlys seem to have this zipped up. They control the only large city north of the Neck, and seem to have a good bit of land. In ADWD Lord Manderly seems confident that he has more men than any other Northern lord, and that's after he sent a fair force south with Robb Stark (as opposed to Lady Dustin or Lord Bolton, who seem to have kept a large portion of men at home).

HOUSE TARGARYEN - The Dragonlords seem to have the crownlands pretty well under control. The only other notable power seem to be House Veleryon (and they are very loyal) and whoever control Duskendale, but even they seem lacking.

[Twenty of House Goodmen]

High Garden in particular is highly dependent of its powerful vassals such as the Hightowers or the fleet of the Redwynes. Thing is, these vassals swore fealty to the great houses, and most of them are usually loyal to them, such as the Manderlys, who are the most powerful lords in the North.

As for each main houses rivals, Doran seems to have built a good relationship between him and Lord Yronwood, so it seems he doesn't have much to fear. Tywin already called on his bannermen to crush the second most powerful house in the Westerlands. House Royce, as mentioned before, is loyal to the Arryns, but they want Littlefinger out of power. In the Reach, there are several houses who have a claim based on descent from House Gardner but they seem to be alright with Tyrell as the head house, unless Mace does something to piss them off.

[Naathi Prince]

None of the Great Houses can be brought down by a single bannerman. Each great House has thousands of men sworn directly to them, petty lords, landed knights, and the like. Even the Tyrells are more powerful than the Hightowers, elsewise the Hightowers would have annexed the Gardeners.

We've done a couple threads on this already.

[XxJackmodexX]

HOUSE BARATHEON - We haven't seen any Stormlords who show a strong standing comapred to the Baratheons.

I would make the same arguement RenlyIsNotRight above. House Swann would have a strong standing compared to the Baratheons.

From the Wiki:

"House Swann is an old noble house, regarded as proud, powerful and cautious.They have governed these lands for as long as any can remember, they rule from Stonehelm, overusing a major river route inland to the stormlands, gaining them much wealth and power. They are probably the second most powerful and influential family in the stormlands, after the Baratheons."

The Baratheon's have been dealt an devastating blow over the series.

Stannis has eyes for the Iron Throne, not Storm's End.

[LucionLannister]

Even the Tyrells are more powerful than the Hightowers, elsewise the Hightowers would have annexed the Gardeners.

Not necessarily. The Hightowers are not known to go to war for even wortyh causes, and of the many noble houses mentioned to have notable Gardener blood (Florent, Rowan, Oakhart), Hightower isn't one of them mentioned.

I don't think a Lord of the Hightower is going to be petty and fight over control of the Reach when they're already so powerful on their own. It seems out of their character and history.

[Ice Turtle]

I think that it's important to note that Tullys, Tyrells, Baratheons and Greyjoys never ruled as leaders of independent region. They (with maybe exception of Greyjoys - kingsmoot) were chosen by Targs. Riverrun wasn't even a natural center of power in the region. Aside from civil wars rebelling bannermen became really rare after conquest because great houses could count not only with their troops but also with support of the Iron Throne. Rebelling of Reynes was even madder than first Greyjoy rebellion.

Manderlys and Hightowers are interesting cases, because Hightowers seems all for neutrality Manderlys come from religious and ethnic minority.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I think that it's important to note that Tullys, Tyrells, Baratheons and Greyjoys never ruled as leaders of independent region. They (with maybe exception of Greyjoys - kingsmoot) were chosen by Targs. Riverrun wasn't even a natural center of power in the region. Aside from civil wars rebelling bannermen became really rare after conquest because great houses could count not only with their troops but also with support of the Iron Throne. Rebelling of Reynes was even madder than first Greyjoy rebellion.

Manderlys and Hightowers are interesting cases, because Hightowers seems all for neutrality Manderlys come from religious and ethnic minority.

Baratheons did. Granted, Aegon I made his bastard brother Lord Paramount of the Stormlands in a very Tyrion/Sansaesque, rapey way, but Argilac Durrendons grandchildren and their desdendants rule the Stormlands.

Tullys were the leaders of a successfull Riverlord rebellion against King Harren, allying with Aegon I, not being chosen by him. And they were kings and important Lords in the ancient Riverlands in their own right.

The Greyjoys were chosen by the Ironborn without Aegon I taking part and they were already kings in the Age of Heroes and important Lords under Harren.

All three old and proud houses with a natural claim to the overlordship. The Tyrells are the odd one out. Lowborn and raised up by Aegon I for their cravenship/treason when they yielded Highgarden instead of leaving that decison to the legal heirs of House Gardener.

[Ice Turtle]

Baratheons did. Granted, Aegon I made his bastard brother Lord Paramount of the Stormlands in a very Tyrion/Sansaesque, rapey way, but Argilac Durrendons grandchildren and their desdendants rule the Stormlands.

Tullys were the leaders of a successfull Riverlord rebellion against King Harren, allying with Aegon I, not being chosen by him. And they were kings and important Lords in the ancient Riverlands in their own right.

But Baratheons ruled as Baratheons not Durrendons as would be custom.

At least wiki says that Tullys were never kings. Brackens and Blackwoods and Mudds IRC all supposedly were. Also Tullys rebelled only after Aegon landed. There wasn't even one critical generation to really establish them as a rulers outside of Targ influence.

[Naathi Prince]

Not necessarily. The Hightowers are not known to go to war for even wortyh causes, and of the many noble houses mentioned to have notable Gardener blood (Florent, Rowan, Oakhart), Hightower isn't one of them mentioned.

I don't think a Lord of the Hightower is going to be petty and fight over control of the Reach when they're already so powerful on their own. It seems out of their character and history.

The Hightowers were Kings back in the day, and many of the Reach lords are sworn directly to them. It seems their Kingdom was rather large. Clearly, at some point in history, a Hightower King knelt to a Gardener one.

[pavlosbal]

Not necessarily. The Hightowers are not known to go to war for even wortyh causes, and of the many noble houses mentioned to have notable Gardener blood (Florent, Rowan, Oakhart), Hightower isn't one of them mentioned.

I don't think a Lord of the Hightower is going to be petty and fight over control of the Reach when they're already so powerful on their own. It seems out of their character and history.

Wouldn't control of the most populous fertile and biggest area south of the Neck be a good cause? Of course the Hightowers would attack the Tyrells if they were more powerful. As the Reynes and Tarbecks did against the Lannisters or as the Boltons did many times in the past. Every paramount lord controls a very large amount of land an therefore have a large number of soldiers larger than those of their bannermen. It's just a way to have an income and to be safe. The kings in medieval Europe tried to control as much land as possible and they did so through the use of castellans and bailiffs. Even the Targaryens had direct control over the crownlands and would havee been able to amass a royal army of as many as 60000 men at arms footmen and knights because they wanted to be safe against any uprising and to have a big and reliable force that answered to them.

Armies of the seven kingdoms are based on those of France and England during the 14th-15-th centuries were the majority of men came from lands of the king the majority (up to 60% in the French armies) being full plate men at arms. It is true that the feudal magnates were still very powerful and had a lot of men but by that time not as many as the king.

As for the Manderly's power it has been discussed at length in other posts. And they are also not more powerful than the Starks

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I think a lot underestimate the Tyrells on the basis that they were not the original rulers of the Reach, but given that they inherited all their lands, money and power they should be just as powerful as House Gardener was.

The Riverlands is a different story alltogether. Riverrun was never the powerhouse of the Riverlands yet because they were the first to offer their support. I think Aegon, in retrospect, would of gave it to Qoherys(possible Valyrian family who inherited Harrenhall) or Mooten who led the Targ forces on the field of fire.

Also with the vicinity of Kings Landing to the Riverlands has meant that a lot of Riverlands Houses have received strong favor from the Royal Family. We hear of Hands and Kingsguard members as well as Royal bastards from many of the other families which would give them an increased influence.

One of the major reasons that Tully aligned himself with the Rebellion was to cement his hold on the Riverlands as he must have been sick of the power the Darrys, Butterwell, Rygers, Goodbrook etc. had.

[protar]

I would make the same arguement RenlyIsNotRight above. House Swann would have a strong standing compared to the Baratheons.

From the Wiki:

"House Swann is an old noble house, regarded as proud, powerful and cautious.They have governed these lands for as long as any can remember, they rule from Stonehelm, overusing a major river route inland to the stormlands, gaining them much wealth and power. They are probably the second most powerful and influential family in the stormlands, after the Baratheons."

The Baratheon's have been dealt an devastating blow over the series.

Stannis has eyes for the Iron Throne, not Storm's End.

I'd actually make an argument for House Caron being the second most powerful House in the Stormlands. The Carons are the Lords of the Dornish Marches, presumably giving them lordship over the other Marcher Lords - which include House Swann. So if House Swann is one of the most powerful houses in the Stormlands, House Caron should be considerably more powerful than them.

[Ser Josh]

Wouldn't control of the most populous fertile and biggest area south of the Neck be a good cause? Of course the Hightowers would attack the Tyrells if they were more powerful. As the Reynes and Tarbecks did against the Lannisters or as the Boltons did many times in the past. Every paramount lord controls a very large amount of iland an therefore have a large number of soldiers larger than those of their bannermen. It's just a way to have an income and to be safe. The kings in medieval Europe tried to control as much land as possible and they did so through the use of castellans and bailiffs. Even the Targaryens had direct control over the crownlands and would havee been able to amass a royal army of as many as 60000 men at arms footmen and knights because they wanted to be safe against any uprising and to have a big and reliable force that answered to them.

Armies of the seven kingdoms are based on those of France and England during the 14th-15-th centuries were the majority of men came from lands of the king the majority (up to 60% in the French armies) being full plate men at arms. It is true that the feudal magnates were still very powerful and had a lot of men but by that time not as many as the king.

As for the Manderly's power it has been discussed at length in other posts. And they are also not more powerful than the Starks

There is absolutely no way the crownlands can mass an army of 60,000. I imagine 10k maybe 15k is more likely. The Targs didn't need a huge army, they had dragons. And I think it's pretty clear Manderly is richer than the Starks, controlling the only city and major port, and can probably field more men than Stark, without Stark calling their banners obviously.

EDIT - I don't think the fact that Hightower haven't attacked Tyrell is proof they're not as powerful, they're well known for being neutral. Also Reyne ans Tarbeck only revelled because Tytos was exceptionally weak.