Grand Tyrell Conspiracy Theory

[TrackerNeil]

[quote name='wvlr' post='1193210' date='Jan 16 2008, 19.58']If they are the same ones - I would say that Waters is Deeply in the Tyrell Camp and is probably loading up fighters and such in preparation to sail further north with other ships to confront the Iron Born. And save Highgarden and really make a name (Lordship or such) for himself. Maybe Marg or Loras did not turn him down when he hinted he wanted more than Cersei was willing to give.[/quote]

Ten dromonds aren't enough to face the Iron Fleet, and in any case they would not arrive before Paxter Redwyne's larger fleet. Paxter Redwyne has more ships and more experience than Aurane Waters, is more reliable, and is related to Mace Tyrell, for Pete's sake...why would Highgarden overlook him in favor of a twenty-year-old bastard with slim experience and questionable loyalties?

Your scenario is just not plausible.

[wvlr]

[quote name='TrackerNeil' post='1195025' date='Jan 17 2008, 20.59']Ten dromonds aren't enough to face the Iron Fleet, and in any case they would not arrive before Paxter Redwyne's larger fleet. Paxter Redwyne has more ships and more experience than Aurane Waters, is more reliable, and is related to Mace Tyrell, for Pete's sake...why would Highgarden overlook him in favor of a twenty-year-old bastard with slim experience and questionable loyalties?

Your scenario is just not plausible.[/quote]


I don't think that I said that he was going to take them on - single handed. He would mearly be adding his forces to the others to take on the Iron Borne and HELP save Highgarden.

I agree in that he definitely would NOT be the Boss of the entire Fleet. Since the dromunds are much larger than normal dromunds and are powered by sail and oars I would think that they would be especially useful. More oars mean they would have a better chance of catching the Iron Born ships that they spot. Once caught and rammed - the larger ship with more men should have a better chance of overpowering the Iron Born ship. From what we saw of the Iron Born fighting in AFfC they are not easily defeated when boarding or being boarded, but with the large difference in quantity of men using Waters ships, I would think that it would create a big advantage. I think that Redwyne and the Tyrells would see this and greatly appreciate the addition of the Waters ships.

[RWHamel]

I think that the Tywin and Tyrell thing went even farther. I think Tywin knew that Magaery carried Renly's child. If the child grew up with the Baratheon traits it would put to rest the ugly rumors about incest. Of course this was all dashed by Joffrey's poisoning. So he instructed Pycelle to help her terminate, and Pycelle was surprised that Cersei was unaware of this.

[TrackerNeil]

[quote name='wvlr' post='1195068' date='Jan 17 2008, 23.39']I don't think that I said that he was going to take them on - single handed. He would mearly be adding his forces to the others to take on the Iron Borne and HELP save Highgarden.

I agree in that he definitely would NOT be the Boss of the entire Fleet. Since the dromunds are much larger than normal dromunds and are powered by sail and oars I would think that they would be especially useful. More oars mean they would have a better chance of catching the Iron Born ships that they spot. Once caught and rammed - the larger ship with more men should have a better chance of overpowering the Iron Born ship. From what we saw of the Iron Born fighting in AFfC they are not easily defeated when boarding or being boarded, but with the large difference in quantity of men using Waters ships, I would think that it would create a big advantage. I think that Redwyne and the Tyrells would see this and greatly appreciate the addition of the Waters ships.[/quote]

I don't think the addition of ten more dromonds is going to make Aurane Waters particularly valuable to the Tyrells, particularly since he will have already shown he's not to be trusted. He had served Stannis, then Joffrey, then Tommen, and now Highgarden? Besides, how will Mace explain to Kevan that he's harboring a traitor to the Lannisters? That's sure to sour the Highgarden-Casterly Rock alliance, an union that Mace Tyrell has been up to this point very eager to preserve. Waters just doesn't bring enough to the table...at least as far as the Tyrells are concerned.

Stannis, however, who has no ships and few men, is much more likely to strike a deal with Waters, particularly if (as I have hypothesized) Waters was responsible for ending the siege of Dragonstone. Of course, I think Stannis might take both the ships and Waters' head, but that's another matter.

[the silent speaker]

[quote]I think Tywin knew that Magaery carried Renly's child.[/quote]
An interesting theory, but I think enoough time had passed since Renly's death that she'd have been showing by the Purple Wedding.

[RWHamel]

[quote name='the silent speaker' post='1198209' date='Jan 21 2008, 11.57']An interesting theory, but I think enoough time had passed since Renly's death that she'd have been showing by the Purple Wedding.[/quote]

I disagree. Only a month passes between the battle of the Blackwater, and the Purple Wedding I believe.

[Andrik the Unsmiling]

[quote name='RWHamel' post='1196878' date='Jan 19 2008, 15.07']I think that the Tywin and Tyrell thing went even farther. I think Tywin knew that Magaery carried Renly's child. If the child grew up with the Baratheon traits it would put to rest the ugly rumors about incest. Of course this was all dashed by Joffrey's poisoning. So he instructed Pycelle to help her terminate, and Pycelle was surprised that Cersei was unaware of this.[/quote]

But why would Tywin be okay with a child who had no Lannister blood being the heir to the throne? If Margaery gives birth to a girl who looks like a Baratheon, then it's fine, but if she gives birth to a boy, then Tywin and all his Lannister support is going to keep Joffrey on the throne for a few decades before someone who bears no relation to him whatsoever takes over? Don't think that would make any sense.

[Roasted In Armor]

Before I start, I will confess, I have not read every word of every post in the thread, but I did read the opening post start to finish.

When I first read AFFC, I had my suspicions about the Loras burned in oil story, something seemed fishy. I want to thank MJS for putting to gether all of the peices I had, and adding so much more that I had not noticed or thought of, and putting together a really nice conspiacy. Great work. I really think the finished product will be very much along these lines, unless it is SO ON THE MONEY that GRRM rewrites the book because of a major plot being discovered! :leaving:

[Zoliv]

Hi everybody,

I have not read every message here, but after a quick research, there seem to be nothing about this with my keyword (which is Myranda).

There is another sign of the non-death/near-death of Loras Tyrell and Dragonstone being untaken yet : page 883 on the Bantam Spectra edition, during a Sansa chapter, while she is discussing with Myranda, this girl talks about the news in the world, and says that Riverrun has yielded, while Dragostone and Storm's End are still standing. However, Riverrun has yielded after the announce from Aurane Waters that Dragonstone has surrendered and Loras Tyrell is close to death. And Riverrun is farther than Dragonstone to the Eerie so the news should have arrived much quicker.

So that's another clue in the Tyrell Conspiracy case.

[Jak o the Shadows]

[quote name='Zoliv' post='1371867' date='May 27 2008, 05.07']Hi everybody,

I have not read every message here, but after a quick research, there seem to be nothing about this with my keyword (which is Myranda).

There is another sign of the non-death/near-death of Loras Tyrell and Dragonstone being untaken yet : page 883 on the Bantam Spectra edition, during a Sansa chapter, while she is discussing with Myranda, this girl talks about the news in the world, and says that Riverrun has yielded, while Dragostone and Storm's End are still standing. However, Riverrun has yielded after the announce from Aurane Waters that Dragonstone has surrendered and Loras Tyrell is close to death. And Riverrun is farther than Dragonstone to the Eerie so the news should have arrived much quicker.

So that's another clue in the Tyrell Conspiracy case.[/quote]

Yeah I noticed that as well.

[Shewoman]

Anathemetizer, how could Lyanna be Ashara's incestuous lesbian lover when she so clearly is, in actuality, Reek's love child by Old Nan?

[Maester Yobjascz]

MJS - very well thought out and explained, but my feeling is that some of what you propound is correct, and that some isn't.

At the core of my suspicion is actually a statement from Catelyn Stark, of all people. Recall what she told Brienne about Renly's knights: "They are the knights of summer, and winter is coming." And right she was. Look at what happened to Renly's Rainbow Guard in ASoS: Robar Royce and Emmon Cuy were killed by Loras Tyrell immediately following Renly's death, Guyard Morrigan and Caron Bryce were killed at the Battle of the Blackwater, and Parman Crane was arrested at Highgarden. In AFfC, we're left with Brienne and Loras. Brienne is severely injured by Rorge and Biter before being strung up by un-Cat. Whether she survives or not, it is no longer summer for her. This leaves Loras. Winter has come to Westeros and Renly's Rainbow Guard... just as Catelyn Stark knew would happen. Why should summer remain for Loras?

Everything Loras does smacks of impatience and youth. He is the quintessential knight of summer. His eagerness to challenge Jaime at the first meeting of the Kingsguard, his readiness to condemn Brienne... these are all core behaviors. While he's not an idiot (recall his use of a mare in heat in the King's Tourney against Ser Gregor), I think his impulsiveness tends to win out. Leading a charge against the Dragonstone seems like something he would do.

And I do believe that he was injured in leading that charge... and I do believe that it was by boiling oil. I don't think that Loras is as badly hurt as Cersei believes... I don't think the wounds are mortal, and I think Loras will recover and regain his form. But like Jaime, I think Loras' winter will force him to mature.

As for the GTC, I think that MJS got it mostly right... up to the point of Euron's invasion. Once the Greyjoys were threatening to come up the Mander, Margaery panicked and showed her inexperience, pushing Cersei too far, too fast. Events spiraled out of control with Margaery locked up by the High Septon and Loras racing to capture Dragonstone. Had Olenna stayed in King's Landing, things might have stayed more under control.

[Chalky]

[quote name='Lord Varys' post='283809' date='May 9 2006, 10.44']But it could be Willas who remains safe in Highgarden that sides the Tyrells with Daenerys when she arrives. The Tyrells were loyal to Aerys, Dany won't forget that, and during ADwD and Book 6 Mace could perish all to lightly.[/quote]
For this reason, and because we're due a possible pov with loras, I think the Tyrells are going to go the same way as the starks and lannisters-that is greatly reduced in power. They've had it far too easy up to this point. And yes this is unashamed speculation

[About Yea High]

Well, I finally waded through all of these (I promised myself I would - it just took a while). Interesting theories and discussions, and Ser Michael has acquitted himself well. Even if a few of his theories prove false ... they're just theories. Why some people get so up in arms over someone throwing out their thoughts - I mean, seriously, some people get [i]mad[/i] - is beyond me.

All part of the forum entertainment, I suppose... and part of the reason why this thread has remained viable since 2006.

(Not to slap at Anathema any more than has already been done, but did anyone else hear Vargo Hoat's voice every time he spat back in the face of civil discussion? That happened for me. And, it added to the overall entertainment value of the discussions. Tally ho, Goat!)

Something I had never considered before this thread was the fact that Ser Loras might be faking. I can, even now, imagine a scene where he smugly rides back into court bedecked in flowers and a grin... likely as Cersei is dragged off to her final fate, frothing at the mouth is disbelieving fury.

(If she's ever allowed to even see the light of day again, much less the court.)

An ironic twist would be for Loras to arrive in all his glory just in time to fight Cersei's champion. Though Frankengregor might want his slice of revenge for the old [i]mare-in-heat[/i] trick.

[Vendetto]

That would be quite the twist.

[Miriel]

[quote name='Maester Yobjascz' post='1378288' date='May 31 2008, 11.40']MJS - very well thought out and explained, but my feeling is that some of what you propound is correct, and that some isn't.

At the core of my suspicion is actually a statement from Catelyn Stark, of all people. Recall what she told Brienne about Renly's knights: "They are the knights of summer, and winter is coming." And right she was. Look at what happened to Renly's Rainbow Guard in ASoS: Robar Royce and Emmon Cuy were killed by Loras Tyrell immediately following Renly's death, Guyard Morrigan and Caron Bryce were killed at the Battle of the Blackwater, and Parman Crane was arrested at Highgarden. In AFfC, we're left with Brienne and Loras. Brienne is severely injured by Rorge and Biter before being strung up by un-Cat. Whether she survives or not, it is no longer summer for her. This leaves Loras. Winter has come to Westeros and Renly's Rainbow Guard... just as Catelyn Stark knew would happen. Why should summer remain for Loras?

Everything Loras does smacks of impatience and youth. He is the quintessential knight of summer. His eagerness to challenge Jaime at the first meeting of the Kingsguard, his readiness to condemn Brienne... these are all core behaviors. While he's not an idiot (recall his use of a mare in heat in the King's Tourney against Ser Gregor), I think his impulsiveness tends to win out. Leading a charge against the Dragonstone seems like something he would do.

And I do believe that he was injured in leading that charge... and I do believe that it was by boiling oil. I don't think that Loras is as badly hurt as Cersei believes... I don't think the wounds are mortal, and I think Loras will recover and regain his form. But like Jaime, I think Loras' winter will force him to mature.[/quote]

Very nice analysis!

[StarkMyrmidon]

[quote name='Zoliv' post='1371867' date='May 27 2008, 04.07']There is another sign of the non-death/near-death of Loras Tyrell and Dragonstone being untaken yet : page 883 on the Bantam Spectra edition, during a Sansa chapter, while she is discussing with Myranda, this girl talks about the news in the world, and says that Riverrun has yielded, while Dragostone and Storm's End are still standing. However, Riverrun has yielded after the announce from Aurane Waters that Dragonstone has surrendered and Loras Tyrell is close to death. And Riverrun is farther than Dragonstone to the Eerie so the news should have arrived much quicker.[/quote]

It was mainly this that also left me with the impression after finishing AFFC that the entire story of Dragonstone being taken and Loras being injured were fabricated from whole cloth to help the Tyrells push Cersei over the edge. My hat's off to MJS for his OP -- I love it!

[quote]Why should summer remain for Loras?[/quote]

Summer died for Loras when Renly died. I think Loras made that clear when he made the "candle flame" / "sun has set" analogy when speaking with Sansa. Gay love doesn't count for less that straight love. Though otherwise I think Maester Yobjascz's post was an excellent analysis.

[Valkyrja]

[quote name='leafsfan' post='279615' date='May 6 2006, 03.30']The attack on Ds did happen. Pretty boy Loras is now extra crispy. HAHA

Cmon people its so Martin. The pretty boy now ugly is almost as cruel as Catelyn not being able to speak at the end of ASOS. I mean q woman not being able to talk? How cruel is this author. ERGO Loras is burnt.[/quote]

Please forgive this slightly off-topic rant, but.....perhaps this is why some people (at least I) *don't* want the Loras-being-burnt story to be true----because its just TOO typical of Martin to do something like that. He is an extreme sadistic author, at least when it comes to physical injuries to his characters. I know a lot of people actually *like* this fact about his writing--i.e. that no character is safe. That is makes things more gritty and 'realistic'. Its true that its realistic to show that people sustain injuries in battles. However, I find this kind of thing to be hyper-realistic when overdone, like I think it is sometimes in ASoIaF. Throughout the story we already have TONS of maimed characters. Sandor is already burned, Bran is crippled, Jaime is maimed, Jon Snow gets a gash/scar on his face, Tyrion (already a freak b/c of his dwarfism) loses his nose, so does Myrcella, Brienne (already a freak due to being her lovely self) gets her face bitten off(!), Catelyn and now apparently Gregor are brought back from the dead, etc. So, despite the fact that Loras has been a rather minor character in the scheme of things (and one whom I don't even have that much of an emotional attachment to), I still would rather him not be burnt to an unidentifiable crisp. It just seems overkill to me. Like, okay.....I get the point GRRM......YOU REALLY LIKE TO MAIM YOUR CHARACTERS TO ADD ANGST TO THE STORY.

The end. :-P

[Cruella_Da_Oz]

I agree, besides, it's kind of an overdone device for character change at this point. It was already done with Jaime. People can change for more subtle reasons that losing their defining characteristics, that is, if Loras will even have enough "screen time" to change.

[Valkyrja]

[quote name='Cruella_Da_Oz' post='1630955' date='Dec 26 2008, 18.21']I agree, besides, it's kind of an overdone device for character change at this point. It was already done with Jaime. People can change for more subtle reasons that losing their defining characteristics, that is, if Loras will even have enough "screen time" to change.[/quote]


Exactly. And I almost forgot about....

SPOILER: ADWD

the apparently now partially flayed and tortured and starved to the point of being unrecognizable Theon Greyjoy

We don't need anymore badly maimed main characters. But that's just my opinion, and sadly I am not GRRM. :rolleyes: