Would Stannis turn on Jon?

[E-Ro]

I will have to post the quote later but grrm(the guy that's wrighting the books) Stannis truly understands who the real enemy is. And is a righteous man. Of course if attacked by Northmen he is going to defend himself, I somehow don't think the Northmen would be dumb enough to attack though. More likely is a peaceful dialogue between the two parties.

[Tagganaro]

This. Even if the Northmen are honestly stupid enough to still be holding to this "DAKINGADANORFFFF" thing anymore (which I don't think they are), I doubt it will ever come to that. Yeah Stannis wants the Iron Throne, but the whole point of his big comeback and change of heart in ASoS was that he realized to win the kingdom he had to save the realm first. And say what you will about Stannis, but he's one of the few characters in the series who understands just how important The Night's Watch is to the safety of the realm. I forsee Stannis, upon winning Winterfell, hearing of the chaos that has erupted at The Wall and immeadiately heading North to set things straight.

I don't get this kind of reasoning. You act like there isn't a serious emotional attachment to freedom and the Starks (i.e. "We know no King but the King in the North, whose name is STARK"), and that several thousand Northmen didn't die in pursuit of this freedom. The idea that the Northmen are stupid enough to be all "Stannis is cool, I guess he can rule over us, screw Robb Stark and everything we just went through" doesn't fly with me.

And I think Stannis fans seriously overrate Stannis's commitment to the NW and the War against the Others. I hope you're right, but I simply don't see ANY evidence in the text to suggest that Stannis will 100% support the NW over his claim to the Iron Throne, because it's not there. It's been left ambiguous.

My bad brah it was a typo,according to the author stannis is one of the few to truly understand the threat the others pose. Hence him not going south

I get that and I hope you're right. But one quote from GRRM does not mean Stannis 100% supports the NW over his claim. In fact, I think we have a lot of evidence to the contrary. The very reason Stannis is marching on WF to fight the Boltons in the first place is not to protect the NW, it's to win over the North so he can eventually go South.

[conon394]

If Jon is ever in a position that threatens what Stannis unquestionably believe to be his by right, then he'll have no trouble in turning on almost anybody and then justify it by hiding behind his claim. This includes Jon Snow. Sadly I think the conflict between Stannis and the north is almost inevitable.

I would agree here Stannis has put himself in a rather untenable position. He true red god types simply are not compatible with the North where they really do believe in the Old Gods, also no one in the North is going to appreciate if he tries to settle any Southern Lord on say soon to be Bolton-less Bolton land. I think most seem to honestly agree with the sentiment from Bear island about Lords and Starks and Kings... To hold his southern troops he needs to fighting for the Iron Throne as he wants to as well, but I doubt anyone in the North cares to play that game again, his red chic wants to fight the magical battle in the North and burn people... a problem again and he is stuck in the North in Winter.

Assuming Jon lives and recovers his status as LC on the NW I would think the any conflict would stem from Jon attempt to hold the Wingdings in the Gift and on the Wall as he needs rather than be sucked into Stannis' army marching away

[E-Ro]

I get that and I hope you're right. But one quote from GRRM does not mean Stannis 100% supports the NW over his claim. In fact, I think we have a lot of evidence to the contrary. The very reason Stannis is marching on WF to fight the Boltons in the first place is not to protect the NW, it's to win over the North so he can eventually go South.

Eventually, yes but not before the realm is safe. The realm comes first brah, cart before the horse, save the realm to win the throne.

[RenlyIsNotRight]

I don't get this kind of reasoning. You act like there isn't a serious emotional attachment to freedom and the Starks (i.e. "We know no King but the King in the North, whose name is STARK"), and that several thousand Northmen didn't die in pursuit of this freedom. The idea that the Northmen are stupid enough to be all "Stannis is cool, I guess he can rule over us, screw Robb Stark and everything we just went through" doesn't fly with me.

See, I never saw the Northern Independence thing as anything more than the Northmens best possible option at the time of the onset at the beginning of the War of the 5 Kings. They're fought The Lannisters to avenge their liege lord, and the oncoming battle between the two Baratheon brothers was superficial to them. Had Renly chosen to support Stannis' claim, I could have seen the Northmen backing Stannis from day one - hell Robb initially wanted to - though of course, not out of love for him, but to avenge Ned, just like they backed Robert Baratheon to avenge Rickard and Brandon.

But that was then, and now The North is unquestionably in shambles and are overlorded by a sociopathic schemer who allies himself with House Lannister (not to mention his heir is even worse than him), and here comes a man who offers them vengeance and even a chance to seat House Stark back in Winterfell. Idk about you, but if I were a Northern lord that would sound pretty damn good to me. Of course The Northmen aren't building shrines to Stannis or will ever love him the way they loved Ned or Robb Stark, but if a Southerner offers them revenge for Ned and Robb, it wouldn't be the first time they've followed a Southerner for that revenge. Were the Northerners complaining when Robert Baratheon sat the Iron Throne? Or past Targ kings before Aerys? No - there is absolutely no reason Northern independence is really any better than being overlorded by the Iron Throne, especially in The North who tend to be fairly autonomous and left to their own way either way.

All I'm saying is, it should be enough for the Northmen to have a Stark in Winterfell. Stannis can give them that, and if he does, I don't see any logical reason for them not to follow him. Again, I'm not saying they will love Stannis, but them turning on him would be a stupid, shitty and dishonorable move that I don't think Ned, Robb or Jon would have approved of. And lets not forget that winter is coming. You'd think the Northmen of all people wouldn't be petty enough to risk such a stupid squabble in the light of that.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

I think the real question is, will Jon turn on Stannis?

[Winterfellian]

I will have to post the quote later but grrm(the guy that's wrighting the books) Stannis truly understands who the real enemy is. And is a righteous man. Of course if attacked by Northmen he is going to defend himself, I somehow don't think the Northmen would be dumb enough to attack though. More likely is a peaceful dialogue between the two parties.

Personally I would be very interested in reading this quote as I never had.

But I don't agree with you with the part of a peaceful dialogue (perhaps I might change my mind after reading the quote, who knows?) Don't you remember the last time Stannis went to a peaceful dialogue? Back then Stannis, Renly and Robb faced a common enemy and Cat offered very peaceful and smart insights to the problem but Stannis was too concerned over what was HIS and what was owed to HIM that he paid her any mind (not that Renly was any better, but this is about Stannis). Also, for all his righteousness we must not forget that that he is also hard and unbending. So if the Northmen pressed for something that is not aligned to Stannis' interests, then I definitely see conflict in the horizon.

Eventually, yes but not before the realm is safe. The realm comes first brah, cart before the horse, save the realm to win the throne.

Sorry to step in, but I agree with Tagganaro on this one. For all his talk about saving the realm, Stannis is pursuing it in light of an objective, to win the realm, not for selfless reasons alone. In all of his dealings with Jon he never separates the political aspect (like wanting to grant the castles in the wall to his own bannermen) from the actual problem- the Others. I think this thing with the castles illustrates very well his position. He didn't want them for his bannermen so that the castles were better manned in light of a potential attack, like Jon did later on with the wildings. He wanted to bestow castles that weren't his to give and against tradition because a king should be generous with his subjects and many of his own lords had left their keeps to follow him.

Like his intention to aid the Wall in order to win the realm, the result is seemingly the same- castles well manned and wildings defeated- but his actions aren't fueled by selfless motives alone. To the contrary his motto about saving the realm to win the kingdon indicates that for Stannis the things aren't mutually exclusive.

I love the idea of Stannis having to make a choice, that Tag brought earlier. Does he truly fights for the realm or for the Iron Throne? Will he bend or will he break? The coin is still in the air i think.

[Tagganaro]

Eventually, yes but not before the realm is safe. The realm comes first brah, cart before the horse, save the realm to win the throne.

I hope you're right brah. We simply don't know though what will happen once Stannis defeats Bolton. Why even go to WF in the first place if the Iron Throne isn't the goal, or at least a goal.

See, I never saw the Northern Independence thing as anything more than the Northmens best possible option at the time of the onset at the beginning of the War of the 5 Kings. They're fought The Lannisters to avenge their liege lord, and the oncoming battle between the two Baratheon brothers was superficial to them. Had Renly chosen to support Stannis' claim, I could have seen the Northmen backing Stannis from day one - hell Robb initially wanted to - though of course, not out of love for him, but to avenge Ned, just like they backed Robert Baratheon to avenge Rickard and Brandon.

I agree that at least initially, it was little more than a seeking of vengeance. But when you think about it, it's turned into something far different. What does the North actually get out of being subject to the Iron Throne? Apparently all they do is pay massive taxes and get beloved Starks murdered by insane tyrants. When you look at Robb and his will additionally, there is little room for a King on the Iron Throne in that system. I'll point again to Lyanna Mormont's letter to Stannis.

But that was then, and now The North is unquestionably in shambles and are overlorded by a sociopathic schemer who allies himself with House Lannister (not to mention his heir is even worse than him), and here comes a man who offers them vengeance and even a chance to seat House Stark back in Winterfell. Idk about you, but if I were a Northern lord that would sound pretty damn good to me. Of course The Northmen aren't building shrines to Stannis or will ever love him the way they loved Ned or Robb Stark, but if a Southerner offers them revenge for Ned and Robb, it wouldn't be the first time they've followed a Southerner for that revenge. Were the Northerners complaining when Robert Baratheon sat the Iron Throne? Or past Targ kings before Aerys? No - there is absolutely no reason Northern independence is really any better than being overlorded by the Iron Throne, especially in The North who tend to be fairly autonomous and left to their own way either way.

Of course that "sounds good", that's why the Northmen are going through with this right now. What unquestionably does not sound good is then making up the bulk of Stannis's army to march south with him in order to help him regain the IT and rule over the Northmen yet again.

Clearly there is very good reason for the North to want independence, and there is a major difference between being subject to the IT or not, when you consider for example that Manderley is able to fund an entire naval fleet simply from the withheld taxes to the Iron Throne. And again, none of this factors in the emotional factor that has grown over time.

All I'm saying is, it should be enough for the Northmen to have a Stark in Winterfell. Stannis can give them that, and if he does, I don't see any logical reason for them not to follow him. Again, I'm not saying they will love Stannis, but them turning on him would be a stupid, shitty and dishonorable move that I don't think Ned, Robb or Jon would have approved of. And lets not forget that winter is coming. You'd think the Northmen of all people wouldn't be petty enough to risk such a stupid squabble in the light of that.

It is enough for the Northmen to have a Stark in Winterfell. That's what they want- A Stark in WF and a King in the North. You don't see any logical reason for why a bunch of Northmen (who would make up the bulk of Stannis's army) don't want to march South through a blizzard to fight a battle for something they don't give a crap about? The idea that they'd be "betraying" Stannis as well is a little ridiculous, considering not one of them has pledged anything to Stannis (except for maybe Manderley) and that they are helping Stannis as much as he is helping them.

What stupid squabble? You think it would be less stupid of them to march South in the middle of Winter to fight a battle for something nobody cares about? That's less stupid to you than not trying to fight at all and preserving their strength for the real battle?

Again, all I'm saying is that Stannis needs to make a choice about which battle he cares about more. He has not done that yet. Until he does, there should be no talk of "betrayal" or any other of that stuff, because frankly Stannis would be betraying the Northmen even worse by demanding they march South with him.

[Erudain]

Don't think he will turn on Jon, because that would be one hell of a short fight.

Stannis has what? 1000 men loyal to him?

If Stannis wants to march south with the northern forces he has, and if Jons accept the title of King in the North in Robb's will, he'll have most the strength left in the north to muster + the wildings.

What will Stannis do?

Don't think Stannis will be dumb enough to try to figth that, if he doesn't want to accept it with all his "no bending" ideas, he'll have to leave the north with whatever forces he has left and try to reclaim the north when he has proper forces.

[mcb]

See, I never saw the Northern Independence thing as anything more than the Northmens best possible option at the time of the onset at the beginning of the War of the 5 Kings. They're fought The Lannisters to avenge their liege lord, and the oncoming battle between the two Baratheon brothers was superficial to them. Had Renly chosen to support Stannis' claim, I could have seen the Northmen backing Stannis from day one - hell Robb initially wanted to - though of course, not out of love for him, but to avenge Ned, just like they backed Robert Baratheon to avenge Rickard and Brandon.

Robb never expressed any wish to declare for Stannis. When asked specifically this very question, "do you mean us to declare for Stannis?", Robb answered "I don't know". He considered Joffrey rightful king, and Tommen the next in line. And the bottom line was, of course, "fuck the Baratheons".

[ARYa_Nym]

I don't think it's even in question. The matter to me is when.

I also don't believe that Stannis is aiming for the throne out of duty. He wants it. He's survived almost everyone else from the War of 5 Kings. He's not going to step aside for Jon who at the end of the day means nothing to him. Even if he did we know that Stannis will still eliminate those close to him.

[mattah84]

Stannis will not turn on Jon just yet, if he even does. He needs Jon Snow right now. I believe that Melisandre kept Mance Rayder alive, so that he could be used to position Jon Snow how they need him with both Arya and Ramsey's Letter, and so that Mance could be used to bring the Wildlings over to Stannis' side when Jon marches south with them. The Wildlings would probably go spooky respect with that crap since they thought Mance was burned alive. This plan to join the Wildlings with Stannis' host almost worked, except Melisandre's prophecy about Daggers in the Dark came true. She told Jon Snow to come see her when he got his message from the sky so she could prevent him from being stabbed and stop the prophecy, because she knew what would happen when he told his brothers he was leaving the wall and marching south. When Jon read Ramsey's letter, it defnitely seemed like alot of the Wildlings in the room had his back and would go with him. Jon didn't go see Melisandre however so she wasn't able to prevent it.

[Little Wing]

Hihihi, I'm loving this title - so ambiguous! :laugh:

[Baratheon3508]

Well I misread that title...

Me too... I was like umm do we have any evidence that either Stannis or Jon would find the other hot! The answer of course is yes. But Satin would turn both of them on more.

[Cruella]

Stannis isn't kissed by fire, doesn't have crooked teeth (as far as I know) nor he reminds Jon of Arya in any way, so no.

[jons nissa]

...if it meant getting the Iron Throne?

Do you think it's possible Stannis would turn on Jon Snow at some point in the series to try and secure the North for himself or something, or even vice versa.

Stannis and Jon have a pretty cool working relationship and a lot of mutual respect for each other, so I wouldn't like them come to blows but a lot of people think they will and Stannis will end up opposing the Starks.

Or has Stannis grown as a person where he'd pick Jon over a step towards the Iron Throne?

choose someone over getting an inch closer to the coveted throne? :lmao:

would stannis turn on jon? faster than you can say "mel! light my fire."

[The BlackBear]

Stannis, Jon and Mel are clearly in a love triangle. Stannis wants Mel, Mel wants Stannis Jon and Jon doesn't know what he wants. Mel is trying to coax Jon into bed by using Stannis as bait. Jon needs someone older than him, who knows more than he does, who isn't conventionally attractive. Add to that the conflicting vows that get Jon all hot under the collar. Stannis had to leave for the mountains because he couldn't stand the sexual tension.

[E-Ro]

Personally I would be very interested in reading this quote as I never had.

Why of course

And it is important that the individual books refer to the civil wars, but the series title reminds us constantly that the real issue lies in the North beyond the Wall. Stannis becomes one of the few characters fully to understand that, which is why in spite of everything he is a righteous man, and not just a version of Henry VII, Tiberius or Louis XI.

[TheMysteriousOne]

Yes, he would.

[Winterfellian]

Why of course

Thanks! Very interesting stuff!