Becoming No One: Rereading Arya III

[Blisscraft]

But then we return to her core. And deep down, she`s Stark, no matter how dressed she is, no matter where she is, or how far from her family she is, she remains Stark. Perhaps she might resent it due to wrongdoings of her brother`s men, or the fact she is highborn captive, but she always holds the symbols of her family quite close to her heart

Not addressing her "core," just her "dressing" or being dressed.

[Mladen]

Not addressing her "core," just her "dressing" or being dressed.

Oh, I got it wrong then...Appologies.

[Lyanna Stark]

So that seems a little exceptional... Sansa is lying/obfuscating and is betraying her own sister for some fantasy wet dream even after she has been witness to Joff's callous cruelty and quite without realizing just what Cersi would expect in punishment. I appreciate Sansa is living in a make believe bubble but I would would forever disappointed if one of my children turned on their sibling in that way (also of course Sansa has already manged to ignore how many other examples of Joff's disdain for her other siblings/house/family)- Arya had every right to beat her.

The only thing Sansa actually manages to say is "I don't remember". Before Ned or any of the adults (who must have known about Sansa's testimony) manage to say a thing, Arya has jumped her and is beating on her and wrestling her to the ground. Not sure what your parents thought, but beating people up was a no no. I had a million shouting matches with my sister, sometimes over an hour long. We slammed doors, etc. but we never, ever actually hit each other. Despite being at each other's throats for well over ten years. That barrier was something we never crossed, regardless of how much we fought.

Hence why Arya trying to beat up Sansa is quite shocking. While siblings fight, at least in my eyes, there is a line you do not cross, and that barrier is physical violence. Perhaps this is different in different cultures, but to me it really is a significant step to take.

[1234567]

Her attack on Hot Pie while with Yoren was also pretty brutal. While understandable in terms of how afraid she was, it is noticeable that her first recall is to violence.

[Mladen]

Her attack on Hot Pie while with Yoren was also pretty brutal. While understandable in terms of how afraid she was, it is noticeable that her first recall is to violence.

Well, that`s the thing with the wolves. When they experience emotional distress or nearby danger they either attack or run. And Arya showed how much of wolf blood there is in her.

[Ice Turtle]

Her attack on Hot Pie while with Yoren was also pretty brutal. While understandable in terms of how afraid she was, it is noticeable that her first recall is to violence.

No her first choice was to avoid conflict by offering HP the wooden sword. She attacks him only after he tries to steel Needle. She breaks his nose and let him be but he initiates attack twice more. Only towards the end she gets really aggressive but she still doesn't use real steel even when she has it. No time during the whole exchange is she afraid.

[Punchslap]

While siblings fight, at least in my eyes, there is a line you do not cross, and that barrier is physical violence.

I can't speak empirically, but at least anecdotally physical fights between siblings are not that uncommon. Regardless, I think the best way to judge that altercation is the reaction to it in the text itself.

[1234567]

@ BrashCandy and Lyanna : Excellent write-ups and analysis.

These are great chapters as an introduction to the BWB. On first glance the BWB seem very much like the good outlaws standing up for the injustices of the smallfolk. It is only after UnCat appears, that most seem to think the organisation has become more about Lynching than justice. However I do wonder if this is not really the case.

Are the trials shams? While Beric and Thoros think not, there is the general belief that they have no other result but guilt.

“A trial first! said Anguy. “Lord Beric always gives them a trial, you know that.” He smiled. “Then he hangs them.”

We have seen in Tyrion’s trial by combat, that he is found guilty despite his innocence. Not to jump ahead too much, but as in the sympathetic view GRRM gives to Arya, Tyrion, Jon and Dany, do we here again have a sympathetic introduction to the BWB. The men we see them kill are guilty of rape and murder. The Hound who is innocent is freed. However we do not see other trials where men who may not have done anything are captured, tried and executed. How many Ser Hyles and Pods have already faced the noose after being "judged" guilty?

Contrast the idea of the trials to Lady Smallwood’s comment

“That badge…there’s many a man who would hang her in half a heartbeat for wearing a flayed man on her breast.”

Guilt by association seems to be common and he BWB maybe as guilty of this as anyone else.

Also although they treat her well, she is still a captive and they have abducted her. Given that her brother was not willing to trade Jaime for her and Sansa, her concerns that he might not want her are actually quite valid. Obviously what the BWB want, namely money, will be given, but had they requested say, the Kingslayer, then there would have been no trade. Arya as a captive becomes a commodity and she has a set worth. To Cat and Ned their daughters were priceless, but to their Brother, they do in fact have a net value. Arya sees the drawbacks in her name because it has made her a captive.

I thought Arya's defence of her mother was endearing and her assuption that it had to be lies, saying a lot about her loyalty to her family and her image of what her family was. However Arya’s view of her parents is a child’s view, but that is beginning to be challenged and she is being forced to see her parents as people with flaws like any other. A similar thinks happens to Sansa when she thinks basically "so what", when LF tells her that he slept with her mother. Arya is still reacting negatively to the realisation that her parents are people like everybody else.

In terms of the effects on the Riverlands, Lord Lychester is a sad reflection of how the tale may end for some of the characters.

War will leave a lasting effect on not just Arya but the entire generation who have experienced it. For men such as Lord Lychester and women like the Ghost of High Heart, it has destroyed their lives. The warning in this is that not all the characters will recover from the events of this war. The scars may be too deep to ever really heal.

Arya is like Mr Benn .

Well in his innocuous black and white suit, I never thought I would start imagining Mr Ben as the Kindly Man. :eek:

Sigh, Mr Benn a Faceless man. Who knew. Soon we shall discover that King Rollo was a fly on the wall documentary about Robert and Cersei.

On the clothing analysis I cannot stress enough that Arya does not choose either the Acorn dress or the baby pearl dress. They are both dresses belonging to Lady Smallwood's family which Lady Smallwood chooses to have put on Arya.

I feel a deep unease, that I would like to impress upon all of you, about assuming that the clothes tell us much about Arya. Lady Smallwood does not say 'hey Arya, our clothes chests are open to you, choose what you want to wear, whatever makes you happy' - what we get is: "they insisted she dress herself in girl's things" and later "the dress she put her in this time", in other words Lady Smallwood is doing the choosing and it runs against what Arya wants. They have to insist.

The clothes, I put it to you, reflect nothing of Arya save her size.

I'm not so sure. The clothes like Arya's future roles within the FM are also ones she is given rather than roles she has taken on herself to play. Yoren made her Arry, but she became, Weasel, the Ghost, Nan and Squab. Here we seen others giving her a role, and in this case it is one of Lady. Neither dress she wants.

Symbolism in clothing has always been present and in Westeros, Houses and Colours have significant meaning. Arya is dressed in Lady Smallwood's daughter's dress. The acorns presumably representing her House. Arya is then dressed in lilac, which is a shade of purple and purple is the colour of King’s.

Edit: Ironically Royal Purple is also known as Tyrian Purple apparently.

Looking at Ice Turtle's quotes it is interesting to see which characters wear certain colours. The purple for Kings could be another nod that Varys is a Blackfyre for instance or just a descriptiveturn of phrase.

Interestingly it is Arya who is dressed in lilac, while we have Sansa who was meant to be Queen rejecting it later in AFFC. I wonder if this could tie in with Ned’s comment back in AGOT, that Arya will marry a King and rule his Castle, which she of course dismisses and says that will be Sansa. Not suggesting that Arya marries a King, but that the imagery of the dresses suggests that Arya maybe the one who has more of a link to the throne.

As for the baby pearls, if they are the same as seed pearls, then Sansa when she escapes has a dress with seed pearls that she hides under a cloak to avoid being seen. Again the richness of the dress is hidden in one case, while the detail in Arya’s is displayed and indeed more is done to her appearance when the lilac dress is put on than the acorn one. Again this could highlight her being put in a specific role or it could link to something else.

[Lummel]

...Sigh, Mr Benn a Faceless man. Who knew. Soon we shall discover that King Rollo was a fly on the wall documentary about Robert and Cersei...

It's not King Rollo, it's his cook I'm suspicious of :ph34r:

I'm obviously explaining myself really badly on this clothing business.

I agree that there is potentially significance to colour choices but I note that it is possible for GRRM to make mistakes and for details sometimes to be just background details.

In this case I think there is more significance in Arya being made to wear certain clothes and the implicit assumptions about the roles inherent in those clothes than in the colours and decoration, because this business of role and identities is a theme we can recognise in the Arya chapters and is a major concern in the series as whole, particularly in the Stark family. On the other hand I agree that the details of little acorns and baby pearls might be significant, but on the other hand how do we know that those particular costumes over and above any other costume are significant? There's a difference in something regularly being associated with a character like horses and wolves with Arya and things that are one offs, like baby pearls. I feel that with one we are on firmer ground than the other :laugh:

I fell to thinking about Bran. All he wants to be is a knight, but he's made in turn The Stark in Winterfell, then prince and heir to the throne, then hostage and now he has somebody keen to make him into a Greenseer. We see how Arya reacts to unwelcome roles through rebellion and Jon through depression.

Oh yes, justice. Justice as it would be defined in most places in our world doesn't seem to exist in Westeros. The trials that we see in Tyrion's narrative are political and serve to publicly demonstrate the guilt (or presumably the innocence if the judge likes you) of the accused. There seems to be no notion of establishing the truth that we've seen in any of the Lordly trials. Thinking of Tarly in AFFC, there is a brief questioning before punishment. When we get there the BWB seem to be at the forefront of jurisprudence in thinking that the accused should be able to present their case and conceivably could be found not guilty.

[fantasmas]

Some of the posters have touched on the 'what if' of Arya's life had she been raised as a lady. My opinion is that while Arya may have played at the role of a lady, eventually I don't believe she would have been satisfied. I imagine she would have ended up like Cersei in that respect. Because she would not have been allowed to live the life she desired, she would have likely ended up feeling somewhat angry and resentful.

Also, I think it is a fair assessment to say that Arya had issues with anger as far as AGoT. Her actions were way too aggressive, and Ned should have been a better disciplinarian. Yes, children get in fights, but the aggressor should be disciplined accordingly.

Arya definitely didn't feel comfortable in those dresses. However, I think that has to do with not knowing what to do with femininity at this stage of growing up. Her experiences with lessons in being a lady were often shaped by her strained relationship with Septa Mordane who, as far as the reader can see, criticized all of Arya's attempts. Yet, she submits to Lady Smallwood's dresses because she wants some motherly attention even if she feels awkward in them.

If there is a theme of puberty in this chapter, then her feelings of inadequacy and awkwardness fit right in.

[1234567]

It's not King Rollo, it's his cook I'm suspicious of :ph34r:

The Cat's a bit dodgy too. :)

I'm obviously explaining myself really badly on this clothing business.

It is more likely to be me, if someone is not explaining themselves properly.

In this case I think there is more significance in Arya being made to wear certain clothes and the implicit assumptions about the roles inherent in those clothes than in the colours and decoration, because this business of role and identities is a theme we can recognise in the Arya chapters and is a major concern in the series as whole, particularly in the Stark family.

Arya's may not like the dresses, but it certainly highlights her adaptability to different roles. As you say the main aspect the dresses highlight is identity and the reactions to perceived identity and of course Arya being placed in various guises and playing parts with relative ease. As you say identity and roles play a large part in all the stories (as we see with Cersei's memories of trading clothing with Jaime as a child and the different reactions they received), but for Arya, identity is almost like clothing as she takes on roles like an actor in a play, whilst remaining herself inside (well for the moment at least.)

The symbolism and analysis of links between clothing colours, etc goes on to a different and less tangible theme,(like food analysis) across the various chapters and is less certain and contains a lot more guesswork, but whether they are actual hints and connections or just coincidence based on the author using certain Medieval sources etc is up for debate.

Indeed, but Anguy's comment suggests they very rarely are. Underneath the veneer, Beric's BWB is not so different from UnCat's BWB.

[Uncat]

Inclination to violence - just to make it clear, that this is just a character trait people have, like any other:

Go to a kindergarden or playground of your choice. You will find the whole range of answers to a challenge. Some kids duck away from the fight, some talk themselfes out of it or talk the others into the ground. Some just jump and push, hit or bite.

In an ordinary course of things, social education will level this to a point, where the one kid learns to restrain himself while the other learns to stand his ground. I, as a matter of fact, am very impulsive and I would not oppose if someone called it a trait for violence as a reflexiv response. When some kid tried to grab my showel, I hit it with it. Later, I learned to answer differently (having been smaller then most other kids might have been a reason, too :)). And today, I don't walk about shooting people who steal my lunch.

The same would have happend with Arya under ordinary circumstances. She would always be a strong personality and either a curse to a husband or the best thing that ever happened to him (depending on the guy). But circumstances became somewhat off ordinary and that trait became her key to her survival.

On the dressing issue: I think, it is kind of a symbolism for puberty. The acorn dress comes across as some kind of dress you would stick a girl into, who did not yet enter puberty. But that one does not fit anymore. She already plays with a boy. The perly dress is a dress for a young woman "flowered", who would want to impress men with her beauty. But that is to much for Arya. She is not there yet. So in the end, people stick her in boy-cloths. One could take it as a capitulation: Just something to dress her, as long as she is lost between the girl that was, and the woman that will be. Her development is put on hold again. And it also marks the end of this interlude, where they tried to fit Arya into a normal live. The time out ends and she heads back to the war and her life neither here nore there and without a chance to evolve into the woman she could become.

[conon394]

The only thing Sansa actually manages to say is "I don't remember". Before Ned or any of the adults (who must have known about Sansa's testimony) manage to say a thing, Arya has jumped her and is beating on her and wrestling her to the ground. Not sure what your parents thought, but beating people up was a no no. I had a million shouting matches with my sister, sometimes over an hour long. We slammed doors, etc. but we never, ever actually hit each other. Despite being at each other's throats for well over ten years. That barrier was something we never crossed, regardless of how much we fought.

Hence why Arya trying to beat up Sansa is quite shocking. While siblings fight, at least in my eyes, there is a line you do not cross, and that barrier is physical violence. Perhaps this is different in different cultures, but to me it really is a significant step to take.

The fact is however as far we know that is the case here only an almost unique event - Thus I still think you are underestimating the pressure Arya was under and ignoring how deeply Sansa's opening lie must have cut...

Let's look at the previous events - Sansa stood by while Joff tormented and terrorized an innocent boy. She said nothing as Joff can within an instant of harming Arya but Sansa is mute - but could voice a protest to save her precious prince when she thinks Arya might harm him (aside from the fact Joff's whole MO that that day reeks of date rape anyway...).

Arya was put before what Ned saw as a very hostile court alone with only Jory, Sansa was there for both versions of the story, I have to say it looks like a stab in the back to start with 'I don't remember' you can hardly fault a 9 year old for flying of the handle considering how much pressure she was under (and likely tired and underfed) and who had also already correctly noted the disdain with which Joffery held the Stark family. On balance its likely Arya had what a day or two to relive the moment and conclude Sansa had betrayed her.

edit:

Actually Its fair to see why Arya was willing to attack Sansa. Its Sansa's POV after all and she behaves in a way contrary to everything we know about her father ran his household. She chides Arya but does nothing to restrain Joff in his actions one she must know her father would never accept.

'Sansa slid off her mare, but she was too slow. Arya swung with both hands. There was a loud crack as the wood split against the back of the prince’s head'

She was going to stop Arya not save an innocent from brutality

[brashcandy]

The fact is however as far we know that is the case here only an almost unique event - Thus I still think you are underestimating the pressure Arya was under and ignoring how deeply Sansa's opening lie must have cut...

Let's look at the previous events - Sansa stood by while Joff tormented and terrorized an innocent boy. She said nothing as Joff can within an instant of harming Arya but Sansa is mute - but could voice a protest to save her precious prince when she thinks Arya might harm him (aside from the fact Joff's whole MO that that day reeks of date rape anyway...).

Arya was put before what Ned saw as a very hostile court alone with only Jory, Sansa was there for both versions of the story, I have to say it looks like a stab in the back to start with 'I don't remember' you can hardly fault a 9 year old for flying of the handle considering how much pressure she was under (and likely tired and underfed) and who had also already correctly noted the disdain with which Joffery held the Stark family. On balance its likely Arya had what a day or two to relive the moment and conclude Sansa had betrayed her.

edit:

Actually Its fair to see why Arya was willing to attack Sansa. Its Sansa's POV after all and she behaves in a way contrary to everything we know about her father ran his household. She chides Arya but does nothing to restrain Joff in his actions one she must know her father would never accept.

Both girls were under a lot of pressure that day, but Arya's attack on Sansa would not have helped matters and is only understandable if you believe that all children who are frustrated feel the need to beat up their siblings. Many readers seem to naturally assume that Arya had to bash Joff's head in in order to get him to stop hurting Mycah, but as we see in how events played out, that was just about the worst possible means of responding to Joff's behaviour. Lyanna Stark has noted in the past that Arya was too active and Sansa was too passive in that incident, and I think that's an overall good assessment.

[brashcandy]

'Sansa slid off her mare, but she was too slow. Arya swung with both hands. There was a loud crack as the wood split against the back of the prince’s head'

She was going to stop Arya not save an innocent from brutality

The irony is of course is that had she managed to stop Arya, she would have likely saved the innocent from the ultimate brutality - the Hound's cutting him near in half.

I'd also add now that this is turning into a thread derailment. Meeting violence with violence is sometimes necessary but it can have severe negative consequences. Justifying such behaviour and vilifying another's is not going to add anything to the discussion at this point.

[Lyanna Stark]

The fact is however as far we know that is the case here only an almost unique event - Thus I still think you are underestimating the pressure Arya was under and ignoring how deeply Sansa's opening lie must have cut...

Arya had at this point been missing for days, and she legged it immediately after the event. Arya *knew* what the consequences were as all the Stark children had listened to Old Nan's tales. The fact that Arya ran for it afterwards strongly suggest she knew she was in all sorts of trouble, so I think to suggest that Arya is squeaky clean here and on some sort of mission of justice is to misinterpret the text. While it is noble of Arya to defend Mycah, when we analysed this back in the AGOT chapter, Arya does not take responsibility for making Mycah train with her, she just tells Joffrey to back off, although Joffrey as the crown prince is in a position of higher authority than she is, and she knows this. But she chooses to ignore it. Also, with regards to lies, Joffrey lies through his teeth, but if Arya is so concerned with not lying, why is she herself lying about the situation? Because she did lie about what Nymeria did.

Here is the link to the original analysis in the first Arya re-read thread.

Lyanna Stark has noted in the past that Arya was too active and Sansa was too passive in that incident, and I think that's an overall good assessment.

I think this is an important point to make. Emotionally, for the readers it is far easier to identify with Arya as she did "the right thing" in defending poor Mycah from nasty, awful Joffrey, but looking at it from a noble girl in Westeros and the cultural boundaries, suddenly the situation looks very different. Both Arya's and Sansa's reaction can be understood, but Sansa's is normally the one judged all the harsher, despite her being the closest to following Westerosi laws, cultural boundaries and norms. That doesn't make Arya's defence of Mycah any less morally justified, btw.

However, the end result of Arya's actions is unfortunately Mycah's death, while it is uncertain at best if Joffrey had actually killed him had the situation not escalated.

[conon394]

I'd also add now that this is turning into a thread derailment. Meeting violence with violence is sometimes necessary but it can have severe negative consequences. Justifying such behaviour and vilifying another's is not going to add anything to the discussion at this point.

I concur on that - its clear views aren't going to change and I think those interested have said what they wanted to say for point that is quite a few books behind...

Arya had at this point been missing for days, and she legged it immediately after the event. Arya *knew* what the consequences were as all the Stark children had listened to Old Nan's tales. The fact that Arya ran for it afterwards strongly suggest she knew she was in all sorts of trouble, so I think to suggest that Arya is squeaky clean here and on some sort of mission of justice is to misinterpret the text. While it is noble of Arya to defend Mycah, when we analysed this back in the AGOT chapter, Arya does not take responsibility for making Mycah train with her, she just tells Joffrey to back off, although Joffrey as the crown prince is in a position of higher authority than she is, and she knows this. But she chooses to ignore it. Also, with regards to lies, Joffrey lies through his teeth, but if Arya is so concerned with not lying, why is she herself lying about the situation? Because she did lie about what Nymeria did.

You know I just cannot agree with this... but as I said I agree this is getting OT. I will read the link but what is more OK here reviving the old thread or a new one at this point?

[1234567]

We are reading chapter by chapter, referring to a previous one if it is relevant and unless it is very necessary, not discussing future events in depth until we get to the relevant chapters. We are attempting to build up the picture of how Arya's character develops, along with identifying themes, motifs, foreshadowing, gender debates etc.

The Arya / Sansa reactions to the Joff / Arya fight are always contentious. The first time I read AGOT I was 100% behind Arya's actions, but on subsequent re-reads, taking in comments about Westerosi society and GRRM's comments on bad fantasy etc, it becomes not quite as cut and dried.

Personally I am finding the same thing at the moment with the BWB and their version of justice. It is not as cut and dry as once thought.

On a side note, I'm really pissed off that a certain "book" has made the phrase "shades of grey" impossible to use anymore! :shocked:

Once we have finished the re-read, then there will be the re-thinking threads, where different themes etc will be talked about in depth. The appropriate use of violence as a response and when nobility of action actually doesn't have the intended effect etc.

[brashcandy]

You know I just cannot agree with this... but as I said I agree this is getting OT. I will read the link but what is more OK here reviving the old thread or a new one at this point?

I think if it's something you want to continue to explore and debate, starting a new thread would be advisable since we've already tackled this much earlier in the re-read.

[Mladen]

The whole incident with Mycah can be relatable with so many other things that happened to Arya and helps us understand her a bit. I was researching wolf behaviour in time of distress, and I came to conclusion that wolves possess 3 natural instincts as respond to dangerous situation: running, attacking and pulling back. For me, Arya relatively early in the book showed how much of that wolf blood is in her - she either attacks or runs. So, allow me to use this incident of Arya being wolf who attacks, then we have the chapter with BWB when she ran, and now in this one Lyanna analyzed she is pullung into herself. With such expansion of all 3 coping mechanism with danger we can see how Arya`s growing, and how Syrio`s lessons have calmed her wild nature. Interestingly, the calmer she becomes, the wilder Sansa goes. So, from Mycah to this chapter, we can drew a nice line of Arya`s growth, and how she evolved.

On a side note, I'm really pissed off that a certain "book" has made the phrase "shades of grey" impossible to use anymore! :shocked:

Tell me about it. I can`t use it anymore of fear people will think I`ve read it :)