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The Others Take Ya

Missandei is a Faceless Man/Woman perhaps Izembaro

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One last quote I found that could point to Missandei being a faceless woman.

Missandei sat at the bedside. She had been with the prince night and day, tending to such needs as he could express, giving him water and milk of the poppy when he was strong enough to drink, listening to the few tortured words he gasped out from time to time, reading to him when he fell quiet, sleeping in her chair beside him. Ser Barristan had asked some of the queen’s cupbearers to help, but the sight of the burned man was too much for even the boldest of them. And the Blue Graces had never come, though he’d sent for them four times. Perhaps the last of them had been carried off by the pale mare by now.

The tiny Naathi scribe looked up at his approach.

“Honored ser. The prince is beyond pain now. His Dornish gods have taken him home. See? He smiles.”

(Barristan thinks)How can you tell? He has no lips.

Well this passage is interesting. Now not only is the 11 year old a genius scribe she's:

  • Taking the place of a maester on a death bed, properly administering a potion of milk of the poppy.
  • Not scared of horrific injuries.
  • Strong enough to sit with someone dying and give them comfort in their last moments.
  • Able to notice details about dead bodies Barristan can't, even though he's been killing for years and she's supposed to be a little girl. Like that the guy is smiling with no lips. Now what type of people would know what the musculature of face looks like when its smiling when there are no lips left? Maybe people who cut off faces so they can use them later! trolololol

If she isn't an "angel of death" for the faceless men, personally, I'll be really surprised!!! XD

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Wow, amazing. I had never even thought of this before! We know there are parallels all through this story, and all characters have a reason for being introduced. Perhaps one of the underlying purposes of the Waif is to foreshadow/parallel Messandi. In this way GRRM subtly shows the reader that a person can look much younger than they actually are. The Waif is much older and knowledgeable than Arya at first thinks (when she mistakes her for a child), but perhaps like the Waif, Messandi also appears younger, but is much older. Since the FM can take any part of you that they request, I wonder if they can take your age too....

Messandi is only 11 but she's been with Dany a while now, is she showing any signs of hitting puberty? I think even Dany would notice if one of her closest companions did not start to show signs of womanhood. Dany was 13 when she was married, she considers Messandi a child even though their age difference is not huge. I would think that sooner rather than later Messandi would have to be showing signs of puberty (curves, hips, breasts, pubic hair) all things that Dany would take notice of if her scribe is also serving her in the bath or bedside.

I'm wondering if Messandi is not another Waif.

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Here are some analysis of the relevant quotes I could find, there were so many I'm putting the analysis first and quotes after:

Some things to note:

  • It was the moonsingers that led the Braavosi founders there, but the tradition is all gods are honored not just them. What stared that tradition of honoring all gods? Could it be because the Many-Faced God influenced the founding of the city through the moonsingers?
  • we may not know if the eyes of a person change when someone changes faces among the faceless men.
  • Missandei's eyes are not gold and green, just gold and not described as slitted.
  • Bloodraven in the mystery knight
  • used a full body glamor in order to assume the identity of maynard plumm. Otherwise he would have had a regular face with an albino body and would have been discovered quick.


  • If Missandei is a CotF her clawed 3 finger hand would be a dead giveaway something was up, so whatever glamor that would have to be used would have to be an all over glamor.
  • the CotF sing the songs of the earth, moonsingers???
  • their voices, Missandei's voice is sweet and strong, CotF voices are pure as winter air.
  • Its super weird that Bran's first impression is of Arya. Is it just natural or is there some link between the FM and CotF at work that greenseer Bran is sensing?
  • CotF take names when they need them.

My thought is there could be a relationship between the Naathi on their island actually being CotF (like I've seen mentioned that there could be Unicorns on Skaagos Island still) But there are striking differences. Could they be in the general population because of glamors used to hide them or just that they're the offspring of children and men? How did Leaf walk around for 200 years? If the Naathi are a human CotF cross breed I can't see why there wouldn't there be more mixed race children on places OTHER then the island if that were the case, or stories, its pretty strange.

At first, thanks a lot for all the research work. Awesome job!

For a relation of the Naathi and the CotF - I would say unlikely.

There are certain parallels or similarities in their appearance - but if they are related or share a comman ancestor, when should they have seperated? The CotF are a kind of stone-age-society (no metalwork, nearly no technology), so how would they manage to cross half the planet without ships?

Sure, there was the land bridge what is now the stepstones, but it would have been a long long walk... And Naath is an island, so in the end they would havee needed ships.

For Missandei beeing a CotF / FM in full glamour - well, maybe, we know not enough about their abilities to glamour themselves. We know they can change faces, but also the body (add one finger, change claws into nails...)??? It's quite a difference to make one man look like another man then make a human look like a three-fingered creature with claws (or vice versa).

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Love this thread.. enough to make my first post on the forum. If Missandei is indeed Izembaro, it would tie up the slavery storyline in Meereen incredibly well.

If the faceless men did indeed give the gift of death to the dragons, it will cause some very interesting developments as Victarion rolls in with his fleet and his dragon horn. I think that if Dany uses the Dragon Horn to enslave the dragons, she will become an enemy of the FM, while if Victarion is successful, he will be the target.

Due to the horn being from Valyria, I think it is safe to assume that Dany's Targ heritage has another form of "bond" much like the Starks and their Dire Wolves, though not the same as warging, some sort of "fire bond" (I shouldn't name things). The bond between Jon and Ghost or Bran and Summer does not feel at all like slavery to me, and I think it would be a much more harmonious form of connection between the dragons and their riders.

I'd also like to point out that on the extreme ends of ice and fire, both use enslavement, an abomination according to the wargs in the north of Westeros. (Dragons enslaved by magic, wights, Lord Beric, Varamyr Six-Skins, Bran warging Hodor)

Not sure I added anything new here. Great post OP.

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I also suspect Missandei to be a FM, i'm about 60-70% sure.

One of the most often mentioned counter agruments i've read so far is:"How could the FM know that Dany would go to Astapor and place a FM posing as a slave girl there, possibly for years?"

Well the solution to this problem is pretty simple actually:

FM-Missandei could have been following Dany from Qarth, i even suspect it should be possible for a FM to hide on one of the three boats. Kill the actual slavegirl-Missandei and take her face.

This is not a stretch, something similar has been done by Jaqen with Pate and apparently he is good enough posing as Pate, that none of the other apprentices, maesters or even archmaesters seem to have noticed it. And Pate has spent over 2 years with those people.

It could very well be, that the actual-Missandei was replaced by FM-Missandei shortly after Dany took Astapor. It would be even easier to pose as a young slave girl, that not even a handful of the Unsullied know (and she doesn't even spend time with them!)

BUT i do not think she is Icembaro:

The KM tells Arya that there are 3 ways of changing ones face: mummery, glamour and the FM-bloodmagic-thingy

So i'm fairly certain that Arya will start with #1 (and possibly #2 at the same time to speed up her progress)

I do not think, that the FM would send an apprentice who has not even been there for 2 years on such a high stake mission. Dany, a queen with 3 dragons seems like very high stakes and a 100% success rate does not come from sending newbies on difficult missions!

The (possible) mission:

I would assume it's mostly recon at this point. The FM or bravosi in general seem to have a strong opinion against slavery.

What has Dany done so far? She went to Slavers Bay and freed 2 alot of slaves there.

Why would Dany have problems with Bravos or the other way around? I think Ser Barristan knows that the IT comes with a big debt to the iron bank and that are a very powerful institution, not to be messed with.

It also don't think the FM have problems with dragons in general, as long as they stay clear of Bravos. The targaryens had dragons for 150years, yet the FM don't seem to have made attempts on them. Why would they start now?

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Good point about not sending an amateur FM like Arya to handle such a task as assassinating someone who had enslaved a dragon, I had some thoughts about that.

The thing is, Arya has a skill that (I assume) other FM do not have access to, warging. In fact, Arya's sight is taken away and only returned once she uses her warging ability.

What better way to disable a dragon? What power wins, dragon horn enslavement or warging?

As for FM not making attempts on Targ dragons, I think this is because Westeros Targaryens didn't use a dragon horn to bind their dragons, but rather a bond between two willing participants.

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Wow, amazing. I had never even thought of this before! We know there are parallels all through this story, and all characters have a reason for being introduced. Perhaps one of the underlying purposes of the Waif is to foreshadow/parallel Messandi. In this way GRRM subtly shows the reader that a person can look much younger than they actually are. The Waif is much older and knowledgeable than Arya at first thinks (when she mistakes her for a child), but perhaps like the Waif, Messandi also appears younger, but is much older. Since the FM can take any part of you that they request, I wonder if they can take your age too....

Having the waif as a foreshadow/parallel device makes a lot of sense, I mean she could have been meant to parallel Leaf in Bran's story too, but the non-aging conversation on the Waif's end makes a lot more sense as a foreshadow for a child-woman agent. Perhaps there's even a triple parallel going on.

The creeptastic line that I think might be related to previenting aging is when the kindly man tells Arya:

“The one you call waif is a woman grown who has spent her life serving Him of Many Faces. She gave Him all she was, all she ever might have been, all the lives that were within her.”

At first when I read this I wondered if he was talking about Nymeria and her being a warg and possible skinchanger, but considering Missandei, and her confirmed age, it could also be about her no longer being able to grow up. All she was, might have been, all the lives within could map to the child she was, the woman she would have been, the lives of the children she could have had. My Peter Pan knowledge is only some vague memory of disney movies but maybe there's some twisted inspiration going on there.

also when Arya is looking at the acolytes...

The acolytes were younger. The eldest was her father’s age; the other two could not have been much older than Sansa, who had been her sister.

So Arya's the youngest acolyte, unless she's comparing the acolyte's ages to the age her sister Sansa was when she last saw her GOT which is would be "pre-flowering". If the waif is fully human, she must have been a super rare young girl child acolyte before she started with the FM, like waif having been her parent's child offering for her stepmother's murder.

It occurs to me that its really twisted to offer up your child, so the guy lost his forturne AND his child? Maybe they prefer child offerings for that reason? train 'em young? You would think the father who wanted revenge on the step-mom so bad for hurting his child would have offered himself up and not his already poisoned daughter whom he cared about, but maybe they wanted her more then him instead because she WAS a kid?

hm.

Messandi is only 11 but she's been with Dany a while now, is she showing any signs of hitting puberty? I think even Dany would notice if one of her closest companions did not start to show signs of womanhood. Dany was 13 when she was married, she considers Messandi a child even though their age difference is not huge. I would think that sooner rather than later Messandi would have to be showing signs of puberty (curves, hips, breasts, pubic hair) all things that Dany would take notice of if her scribe is also serving her in the bath or bedside.

I'm wondering if Messandi is not another Waif.

I don't see any. I think she seems to age in Dany's mind though. She considers her 10 in ASOS and 11 in ADWD. Is one year the appoximate timeline between those books?

At first, thanks a lot for all the research work. Awesome job!

No problem! I felt a little bad for having such long posts in the first place, thanks for reading!

For a relation of the Naathi and the CotF - I would say unlikely.

There are certain parallels or similarities in their appearance - but if they are related or share a comman ancestor, when should they have seperated? The CotF are a kind of stone-age-society (no metalwork, nearly no technology), so how would they manage to cross half the planet without ships?

Sure, there was the land bridge what is now the stepstones, but it would have been a long long walk... And Naath is an island, so in the end they would havee needed ships.

I'm sort of 50/50 on whether they're actually physically related myself, however its something I'm curious about because the westeros and essos storylines have to meet up somewhere. I'm looking for the elusive storyline link that brings Dany Essos and Jon's Westeros stories together.

There are a bunch of parallels that you can see between Bran's story up in the cave with the 3EC and Arya's training with the faceless men. Little details like the similar descriptions of their mentors and the black and white surroundings and drinking poisons. I think the chapters are alluding that the HoB&W and CotF have a fundamental connection and that intrigues me.

In terms of the Naathi I have to wonder if all of them are small of stature like Missandei is. Her brothers probably wouldn't have been made into unsullied if they were of small stature. You never see her brothers being physically described either (or at least, I couldn't find it) eye color, size, nothing.

As to crossing the planet and ending up on island, I wonder at how deep the tunnels we see all over the place in westeros and below the HoB&W go. If the CotF are actually more comfortable living below ground, could they routinely be travelling between continents in these tunnels beneath the seas? (It could give Patchface's "under the sea" prophesy line a whole new creepy dimension! :lol: ) Could the Weirnet root structure be incredibly extensive to the point of being able to manipulate at the depths of the ocean? (which could explain the drowned god and the hammer)

For Missandei beeing a CotF / FM in full glamour - well, maybe, we know not enough about their abilities to glamour themselves. We know they can change faces, but also the body (add one finger, change claws into nails...)??? It's quite a difference to make one man look like another man then make a human look like a three-fingered creature with claws (or vice versa).

I know the claws are a total no go! I can't see a CotF amputating their claws and sticking on human hands unless GRRM is starting to take us waaaaay out there with the magic. How would Missandei scrub Dany's back in the bath (post number one, item #7) without gouging her? Hold the sponge carefully?!? I don't see how it could work.

*impromptu crackfic*

Dany: (in bath w/ Missandei) "Owwww! What was that?!?"

Missandei: "Just a little extra exfoliation your grace! Nothing to worry about!"

*end impromptu crackfic*

For myself it almost completly rules out Missandei being a pure CotF, she'd have to be of mixed race if her stature is only due her CotF heritage.

Love this thread.. enough to make my first post on the forum.

Yay!!! Thank you and

!!!!!!!!WELCOME!!!!!!!

:grouphug: :read: :love: :grouphug:

Glad you love the thread!

If Missandei is indeed Izembaro, it would tie up the slavery storyline in Meereen incredibly well.

If the faceless men did indeed give the gift of death to the dragons, it will cause some very interesting developments as Victarion rolls in with his fleet and his dragon horn. I think that if Dany uses the Dragon Horn to enslave the dragons, she will become an enemy of the FM, while if Victarion is successful, he will be the target.

Due to the horn being from Valyria, I think it is safe to assume that Dany's Targ heritage has another form of "bond" much like the Starks and their Dire Wolves, though not the same as warging, some sort of "fire bond" (I shouldn't name things). The bond between Jon and Ghost or Bran and Summer does not feel at all like slavery to me, and I think it would be a much more harmonious form of connection between the dragons and their riders.

I agree, though I've wondered if the move/exile to dragonstone could also have been so some Targaryens would have married a Northman/person at time of exile in order to deliberately merge the blood and create a (not my name but I thought it was cool when I saw it) twarg targarean. Everyone is saying "oh you can't warg a dragon" but I never see anyone offering any PROOF!!! Quote me something people! XD Targs married each other most of the time but does everyone really think there was never ANY northern nookie early on? Brynden Rivers can't have been the first to discover what gifts Northern bloodlines had in 'em.

I'd also like to point out that on the extreme ends of ice and fire, both use enslavement, an abomination according to the wargs in the north of Westeros. (Dragons enslaved by magic, wights, Lord Beric, Varamyr Six-Skins, Bran warging Hodor)

Not sure I added anything new here. Great post OP.

That's quite true. I agree with everything you've listed with the exception of wights, but only because I'm developing my own crackpot theory about it. Are we just assuming they're in thrall? Or once they die are they actually in agreement with the Others?

Is seems like a lot of Red Priests are/were slaves (with the exception of Thoros) and they're expecting some weird liberation and they're all happy about it. It makes me wonder WTF is up with Mel if she was bought so this Melony chick could be a priestess in the first place and the relationship to slavery if they hate it with all the rest of them. Thoros doesn't seem to have been a slave though could there be sects in the Red religion?

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The main problem i have with the theory that the FM are against the dragonhorn is one thing:

Euron hired a FM to kill Balon, possibly paid them with a dragon egg. If they think the horn is such a great danger, why wouldn't they ask him for the horn?

"You either give us the horn, or we won't bring the gift to your brother"

Seems pretty simple to me Oo

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alot of awesome stuff

Am just completely mistaken now, or didn't the KM tell Arya why the Waif looks so young. I haven't got the book on me right now (only the first 2), but i'm fairly certain it went something like this:

"The Waif's stepmother tried to poison her after her own daughter was born. She survived but was left in the physical condition she has now, due to the poison. Then her father went to the FM to kill his wive and had to offer his daughter."

This would explain the waifs interest in poisons as well

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Am just completely mistaken now, or didn't the KM tell Arya why the Waif looks so young. I haven't got the book on me right now (only the first 2), but i'm fairly certain it went something like this:

"The Waif's stepmother tried to poison her after her own daughter was born. She survived but was left in the physical condition she has now, due to the poison. Then her father went to the FM to kill his wive and had to offer his daughter."

This would explain the waifs interest in poisons as well

Here are some quotes from AFFC:

Arya first description of the waif:

Arya spun away, but it was only a little girl: a pale little girl in a cowled robe that seemed to engulf her, black on the right side and white on the left. Beneath the cowl was a gaunt and bony face, hollow cheeks, and dark eyes that looked as big as saucers. “Don’t grab me,” Arya warned the waif. “I killed the boy who grabbed me last.”

Waif describing her backstory:

“I am no one.” She was angry. “Who are you?”

She did not expect the waif to answer, but she did. “I was born the only child of an ancient House, my noble father’s heir,” the waif replied. “My mother died when I was little, I have no memory of her. When I was six my father wed again. His new wife treated me kindly until she gave birth to a daughter of her own. Then it was her wish that I should die, so her own blood might inherit my father’s wealth. She should have sought the favor of the Many-Faced God, but she could not bear the sacrifice he would ask of her. Instead, she thought to poison me herself. It left me as you see me now, but I did not die. When the healers in the House of the Red Hands told my father what she had done, he came here and made sacrifice, offering up all his wealth and me. Him of Many Faces heard his prayer. I was brought to the temple to serve, and my father’s wife received the gift.”

Arya considered her warily. “Is that true?”

“There is truth in it.”

“And lies as well?”

There is an untruth, and an exaggeration.”

She had been watching the waif’s face the whole time she told her story, but the other girl had shown her no signs. “The Many-Faced God took two-thirds of your father’s wealth, not all.”

“Just so. That was my exaggeration.”

First I find it interesting the waif replies with a story of WHO SHE IS when Arya asks her. Does this mean that there is some leeway to be yourself at times when you serve the many faced god even as a priest? Where did that come from?

Here's the kindly man's explanations for WHICH poisons made her look like she is now:

She can’t be six-and-thirty, Arya thought. She’s a little girl. “You’re lying,” she said. The waif shook her head and showed her once again: ten and ten and ten and six. She said the words for six-and-thirty, and made Arya say them too.

six. She said the words for six-and-thirty, and made Arya say them too.

The next day she told the kindly man what the waif had claimed. “She did not lie,” the priest said, chuckling. “The one you call waif is a woman grown who has spent her life serving Him of Many Faces. She gave Him all she was, all she ever might have been, all the lives that were within her.”

Arya bit her lip. “Will I be like her?”

“No,” he said, “not unless you wish it. It is the poisons that have made her as you see her.”

Poisons. She understood then. Every evening after prayer the waif emptied a stone flagon into the waters of the black pool.

So the question is, did Arya come to the right conclusion about which poisons did what to the waif? Or was the waif's lie about which poisons (her step-mother's or the poisons she handles daily) made her look the way she is in her story?

Does anyone know what the untruth in her story is, if not the poisons?

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I was thinking that Missandei may be CotF and when Arya takes her face, she'll be able to show us what it means to be one. Hearing better, etc..

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The main problem i have with the theory that the FM are against the dragonhorn is one thing:

Euron hired a FM to kill Balon, possibly paid them with a dragon egg. If they think the horn is such a great danger, why wouldn't they ask him for the horn?

"You either give us the horn, or we won't bring the gift to your brother"

Seems pretty simple to me Oo

Yah, that makes a lot of sense, really really good point! :thumbsup: Maybe when Euron made the contract with the FM he didn't have the horn yet and sailed into Valyria afterwards to get it?

The other possibility is that the FM didn't know he had it by that point, that seems improbable though because they could tell if he was lying about it by just asking him to give an inventory of his goods as they negotiated the contract.

One of the most often mentioned counter agruments i've read so far is:"How could the FM know that Dany would go to Astapor and place a FM posing as a slave girl there, possibly for years?"

Well the solution to this problem is pretty simple actually:

FM-Missandei could have been following Dany from Qarth, i even suspect it should be possible for a FM to hide on one of the three boats. Kill the actual slavegirl-Missandei and take her face.

This is not a stretch, something similar has been done by Jaqen with Pate and apparently he is good enough posing as Pate, that none of the other apprentices, maesters or even archmaesters seem to have noticed it. And Pate has spent over 2 years with those people.

It could very well be, that the actual-Missandei was replaced by FM-Missandei shortly after Dany took Astapor. It would be even easier to pose as a young slave girl, that not even a handful of the Unsullied know (and she doesn't even spend time with them!)

I agree this could have easily been one of the ways that Missandei could have infiltrated them. I have another option if you're interested. Basically that they were there to give the slaves the gift already. See post #5, the 6th and 9th blurbs of text I replied to in the post for more info.

The KM tells Arya that there are 3 ways of changing ones face: mummery, glamour and the FM-bloodmagic-thingy

So i'm fairly certain that Arya will start with #1 (and possibly #2 at the same time to speed up her progress)

I think she's already done #1 (mummery) to change her face when she was tasked to be Blind Beth to gather information. She shaved her head and added a mole or something with makeup with the help of the waif.

She's definitely done number 3, the blood magic, because this was how she got the face of the ugly girl. We didn't see them teach her how to change faces back and forth though, they changed her face back to Arya Stark for her after she finished her first gift.

But I'm thinking #2 and #3 are actually related for the FM. The face is cut into her and bonded to her, yes, but perhaps that's the very personal item that enforces the powerful glamor because its not just the flap of skin that changes, even though that's all that's applied. We see Jaqen's hair change and perhaps the eye color (though I'm not sure about the eyes). Considering Pate novice body is probably a lot different then Jaqen's soldier body, maybe the face changes the look the body too. The books face change of Jaqen to the alchemist in front of Arya is much different and more detailed then the show's depiction.

I suppose they could do straight glamors too, so maybe Arya did skip 2 and went right to #3, which could be another hint they are speeding up her training.

The KM tells her how they change faces:

Arya puffed up her cheeks and stuck out her tongue.

“There. Your face is changed.”

“That’s not how I meant. Jaqen used magic.”

“All sorcery comes at a cost, child. Years of prayer and sacrifice and study are required to work a proper glamor.

“Years?” she said, dismayed.

“If it were easy all men would do it. You must walk before you run. Why use a spell, where mummer’s tricks will serve?

I do not think, that the FM would send an apprentice who has not even been there for 2 years on such a high stake mission. Dany, a queen with 3 dragons seems like very high stakes and a 100% success rate does not come from sending newbies on difficult missions!

The (possible) mission:

I would assume it's mostly recon at this point. The FM or bravosi in general seem to have a strong opinion against slavery.

What has Dany done so far? She went to Slavers Bay and freed 2 alot of slaves there.

Why would Dany have problems with Bravos or the other way around? I think Ser Barristan knows that the IT comes with a big debt to the iron bank and that are a very powerful institution, not to be messed with.

It also don't think the FM have problems with dragons in general, as long as they stay clear of Bravos. The targaryens had dragons for 150years, yet the FM don't seem to have made attempts on them. Why would they start now?

Good point about not sending an amateur FM like Arya to handle such a task as assassinating someone who had enslaved a dragon, I had some thoughts about that.

The thing is, Arya has a skill that (I assume) other FM do not have access to, warging. In fact, Arya's sight is taken away and only returned once she uses her warging ability.

What better way to disable a dragon? What power wins, dragon horn enslavement or warging?

As for FM not making attempts on Targ dragons, I think this is because Westeros Targaryens didn't use a dragon horn to bind their dragons, but rather a bond between two willing participants.

Yes to all of this. I agree its bad to send a newbie too, however if this story is paralleling Bran's storyline, and perhaps has some of the same or related players, we know that Bloodraven tells Bran "the hour is late". This could mean that despite how green (ha) the kids are they have no time to waste, they need their skills and they have to throw them in to action sooner rather then later.

There is also a heated discussion during one of the meetings that Arya attends and the active FM seem to argue in Valyrian. I think they are having the debate on how to train Arya because they switch to a language they are sure she won't understand. No way to know for sure though.

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Sorry, dragons would be used in mines???

Why would dragons be used in mines?

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Here are some quotes from AFFC:

Arya first description of the waif:

Waif describing her backstory:

First I find it interesting the waif replies with a story of WHO SHE IS when Arya asks her. Does this mean that there is some leeway to be yourself at times when you serve the many faced god even as a priest? Where did that come from?

Here's the kindly man's explanations for WHICH poisons made her look like she is now:

So the question is, did Arya come to the right conclusion about which poisons did what to the waif? Or was the waif's lie about which poisons (her step-mother's or the poisons she handles daily) made her look the way she is in her story?

Does anyone know what the untruth in her story is, if not the poisons?

Its not the poisons per the KM. could be anything else in the paragraph. Why would the KM lie about the poisons?

Love the thread btw, just so hard for me to respond properly on my phone.

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Sorry, dragons would be used in mines???

Why would dragons be used in mines?

They were called fire worms. It is a somewhat reasonable to assume that a "fire worm" could be a dragon. Not a huge one, but possibly one anyways.

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They were called fire worms. It is a somewhat reasonable to assume that a "fire worm" could be a dragon. Not a huge one, but possibly one anyways.

I was responding to his post where firewyrms were mentioned but he queried as to why dragons weren't used in the mines.

2 totally different animals when described by the KM.

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Yah, that makes a lot of sense, really really good point! :thumbsup: Maybe when Euron made the contract with the FM he didn't have the horn yet and sailed into Valyria afterwards to get it?

The other possibility is that the FM didn't know he had it by that point, that seems improbable though because they could tell if he was lying about it by just asking him to give an inventory of his goods as they negotiated the contract.

I'm fairly certain that he had the horn before he contracted the FM. This seems to be the only explanation for his perfect timing. It's highly unlikely imo that he contracted them, sailed to old Valyria (a feat never accomplished before), finds the horn and shows up just in time when Balon died.

I also think the FM do recon on their customers. Their price is high for the people who want to contract them, but always in their means. For example, they won't ask a customer for a ton of gold he doesn't have and this indicates that they have ways to find out what a person can afford and what not.

I agree this could have easily been one of the ways that Missandei could have infiltrated them. I have another option if you're interested. Basically that they were there to give the slaves the gift already. See post #5, the 6th and 9th blurbs of text I replied to in the post for more info.

Definitely an interesting point, which would open room for even more speculation. If the FM had 'sleepers' in Astapor to bring the gift to the slaves there, it seems more then likely that they would have some in Yunkai and Meereen too.

I think she's already done #1 (mummery) to change her face when she was tasked to be Blind Beth to gather information. She shaved her head and added a mole or something with makeup with the help of the waif.

She's definitely done number 3, the blood magic, because this was how she got the face of the ugly girl. We didn't see them teach her how to change faces back and forth though, they changed her face back to Arya Stark for her after she finished her first gift.

It could be that being 'blind Beth' was her mummery training, but i really like the idea that Arya is going to meet the King of Mummers, who i think is Izembaro. Her costume wasn't that big a deal and mummers seem to have alot more tricks up their sleeves. Just look at Varys changing his appearance.

You can read about the 'King of Mummers' theory in this thread: http://asoiaf.wester...-under-mummers/

On the last part here i have to disagree, the bloodmagic-thingy was done to her, she has in no way learned the skills yet. We actually see in her pov that she has no idea what exactly they were doing to her and i don't think she could just replicate it on her own, not yet at least ;)

But I'm thinking #2 and #3 are actually related for the FM. The face is cut into her and bonded to her, yes, but perhaps that's the very personal item that enforces the powerful glamor because its not just the flap of skin that changes, even though that's all that's applied. We see Jaqen's hair change and perhaps the eye color (though I'm not sure about the eyes). Considering Pate novice body is probably a lot different then Jaqen's soldier body, maybe the face changes the look the body too. The books face change of Jaqen to the alchemist in front of Arya is much different and more detailed then the show's depiction.

I suppose they could do straight glamors too, so maybe Arya did skip 2 and went right to #3, which could be another hint they are speeding up her training.

When the FM changed Aryas face she appears to be missing teeth (if i recall correctly) but when she touches them they are still there. This could indicate that #3 is actually a form of bloodmagic glamour, stronger then normal ones, which would also affect the physical appearance (look at Mance being glamoured to look like Rattleshirt, they have a totally different physique)

Jaqen first face change was a glamour (#2) imo. I don't have any way to prove that though ;)

Yes to all of this. I agree its bad to send a newbie too, however if this story is paralleling Bran's storyline, and perhaps has some of the same or related players, we know that Bloodraven tells Bran "the hour is late". This could mean that despite how green (ha) the kids are they have no time to waste, they need their skills and they have to throw them in to action sooner rather then later.

There is also a heated discussion during one of the meetings that Arya attends and the active FM seem to argue in Valyrian. I think they are having the debate on how to train Arya because they switch to a language they are sure she won't understand. No way to know for sure though.

Well Arya is not only just a newbie FM but also a newbie warg. Some people on this board just assume that dragons can be warged pretty easily, which i do not think. Powerful creatures like dragons, which have a strong bond to magic, should be very hard if it is even possible.

In Varamyrs pov we learn that some animals are way harder to control then others and i would put dragons on top of that list, very far ahead of the rest.

For the last part, the reason for them holding their meeting in high Valyrian might just be, because of their roots in old Valyria. But the only one who knows for sure would be GRRM ;)

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@office:

I just face slapped myself because it had never even occurred to me that they were pushing Arya to use her warging ability. I just assumed she was punking them. I'm obsessing over this detail now.

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@office:

I just face slapped myself because it had never even occurred to me that they were pushing Arya to use her warging ability. I just assumed she was punking them. I'm obsessing over this detail now.

Im actually sold on some of the heresey theory that arya was tracked down by the FM because they know she is a prophet or living reincarnate of the many faced god. She's being groomed for command of the FM.

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Sorry, dragons would be used in mines???

Why would dragons be used in mines?

They were called fire worms. It is a somewhat reasonable to assume that a "fire worm" could be a dragon. Not a huge one, but possibly one anyways.

I was responding to his post where firewyrms were mentioned but he queried as to why dragons weren't used in the mines.

2 totally different animals when described by the KM.

Sorry for any confusion. I meant that because the story about "slaves" from KM did not deliberately specify whether the slaves were human or dragon, all he used was the word "slaves", then the dragons were likely slaves also. The only species the KM specifies distinctly and as separate from the slaves are the firewryms.

Dragons were found in the fourteen flames of Valyria, which are the volcanoes. The mines were in the fiery hot depths of the volcanoes so if you're going to bind a dragon to put them to work, I'm saying its logical to assume they were working in hot mines too because they are naturally suited for them.

Here's the KM slaves in mines/FM beginnings story:

We have flowered in Braavos amongst these northern fogs, but we first took root in Valyria, amongst the wretched slaves who toiled in the deep mines beneath the Fourteen Flames that lit the Freehold’s nights of old. Most mines are dank and chilly places, cut from cold dead stone, but the Fourteen Flames were living mountains with veins of molten rock and hearts offire. So the mines of old Valyria were always hot, and they grew hotter as the shafts were driven deeper, ever deeper. The slaves toiled in an oven. The rocks around them were too hot to touch. The air stank of brimstone and would sear their lungs as they breathed it. The soles of their feet would burn and blister, even through the thickest sandals. Sometimes, when they broke through a wall in search of gold, they would find steam instead, or boiling water, or molten rock. Certain shafts were cut so low that the slaves could not stand upright, but had to crawl or bend. And there were wyrms in that red darkness too.”

“Earthworms?” she asked, frowning.

Firewyrms. Some say they are akin to dragons, for wyrms breathe fire too.

So he never mentions dragons, but only one type of creature (firewyrms) that are akin to dragons. The rest of the creatures in the story are slaves. All of them. This is not to say there weren't human slaves too, human sandals are mentioned, but certainly the deepest hottest parts of the mines would be well suited for a dragon over a human. The "dragonbinder" horn doesn't sound like it makes a cooperative relationship between dragon and binder.

I admit this an assumption, but I think its got good grounds to be legit.

Its not the poisons per the KM. could be anything else in the paragraph. Why would the KM lie about the poisons?

Love the thread btw, just so hard for me to respond properly on my phone.

My first impression is the KM didn't lie either, and the lie in the waif's story is about the poisons too. I don't trust my own conclusion on it though! XD

I would die if I had to post through my phone. Glad you love the thread. :)

I'm fairly certain that he had the horn before he contracted the FM. This seems to be the only explanation for his perfect timing. It's highly unlikely imo that he contracted them, sailed to old Valyria (a feat never accomplished before), finds the horn and shows up just in time when Balon died.

I also think the FM do recon on their customers. Their price is high for the people who want to contract them, but always in their means. For example, they won't ask a customer for a ton of gold he doesn't have and this indicates that they have ways to find out what a person can afford and what not.

Very true. I agree they would do recon too. Only other possible thing I could think of is if the speculation is true and he had a dragon egg, the FM would be more concerned with getting the Dragon egg away from him so that he wouldn't enslave it with that or any other horn he might get to replace it (if he decided to sail BACK into Valyria to get a second horn if they took the first). That possibility has a lot of iffy assumptions to it though such as they would have to think he had the ability to hatch it and train the dragon. Just a bunch of vague ifs. I don't think I'll make up my mind about all that until there's more info to work from.

I would really love to see a FM negotiation process to get someone killed though, sounds interesting.

Definitely an interesting point, which would open room for even more speculation. If the FM had 'sleepers' in Astapor to bring the gift to the slaves there, it seems more then likely that they would have some in Yunkai and Meereen too.

Yes, like she's already working with a team. Missandei would just be the FM we see because she's in the best position as the queen's handmaiden. New thought: I wonder if there are any FM around Tyrion!!!

It could be that being 'blind Beth' was her mummery training, but i really like the idea that Arya is going to meet the King of Mummers, who i think is Izembaro. Her costume wasn't that big a deal and mummers seem to have alot more tricks up their sleeves. Just look at Varys changing his appearance.

You can read about the 'King of Mummers' theory in this thread: http://asoiaf.wester...-under-mummers/

Thanks I'll check that out. :)

EDIT: The above link got truncated so I did a search, and it seems like it should be this one.

On the last part here i have to disagree, the bloodmagic-thingy was done to her, she has in no way learned the skills yet. We actually see in her pov that she has no idea what exactly they were doing to her and i don't think she could just replicate it on her own, not yet at least ;)

You're right, there's a lot of difference between having someone do it to/for you and having the abilities to do it yourself.

When the FM changed Aryas face she appears to be missing teeth (if i recall correctly) but when she touches them they are still there. This could indicate that #3 is actually a form of bloodmagic glamour, stronger then normal ones, which would also affect the physical appearance (look at Mance being glamoured to look like Rattleshirt, they have a totally different physique)

Jaqen first face change was a glamour (#2) imo. I don't have any way to prove that though ;)

Would the change of hair provide a clue? IIRC Jaqen's hair was long down to his shoulders, but when he changed his face (in the books, it became shorter and curly. I thought Mance's glamor was glamour #2 because Mel was just using objects though because the bones were what he wore, not of his Rattleshirt's body, but perhaps were treading into magical details of what makes blood magic blood magic.

Well Arya is not only just a newbie FM but also a newbie warg. Some people on this board just assume that dragons can be warged pretty easily, which i do not think. Powerful creatures like dragons, which have a strong bond to magic, should be very hard if it is even possible.

In Varamyrs pov we learn that some animals are way harder to control then others and i would put dragons on top of that list, very far ahead of the rest.

For the last part, the reason for them holding their meeting in high Valyrian might just be, because of their roots in old Valyria. But the only one who knows for sure would be GRRM ;)

Just FYI, I'm of the twarg opinion: It takes someone with the blood of the first men, (green magic blood gifts), plus someone with blood of the dragon (red magic blood gifts) to control a dragon in this way. Matches up with Bloodraven and Jon if R+L=J.

Im actually sold on some of the heresey theory that arya was tracked down by the FM because they know she is a prophet or living reincarnate of the many faced god. She's being groomed for command of the FM.

Yah, if the theory of Bloodraven being affiliated with the FM is right, and my thought is it is because of all the parallels between Bran and Arya, then he must have been watching Arya since the time she was born along with Bran as he mentions.

Being groomed for command just like her big brother? Cool thought!

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