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The Others Take Ya

Missandei is a Faceless Man/Woman perhaps Izembaro

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Missandei may not be directly set on Dany from the beginning, if she is FM - maybe she's just "Resident agent" for the Slaver's Bay? FM seem to operate worldwide and esp. in Essos - it would make sense to have key locations covered. Adn masquerading as slave girl is logical - they come and go, appear and disappear and noone cares much.

In such case, she attached herself to Dany because she might have been alerted to her arrival and anyway she would recognize her as high-value target - whether for intel, for assassination or for protection.

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Where is it said that the FM are obligated to give slaves the gift?

The obligation to give slaves the gift is an assumption of this theory. Its based on the first story told to Arya about the FM beginnings and assumes that they would keep giving the gift this same way. It would be their holy obligation as the instrument of death to give it out, like giving communion, confessions, last rites, and marrying people are for conventional priests and as we see in the other religions in ASOIAF.

Where does it end? Do they have agents in all the free cities? In Lys where they teach the seven sighs specifically? What about agents that ride with the Dothraki?

Plenty of religions still send out missionaries worldwide today, so in the world of ASOIAF I think its a possibility in the story. The FM may just the ones who our characters don't want to be rude to when you refuse a pamphlet. :drunk:

If this is GRRM's spin on how our religions go out and spread the gospel, I find it really funny.

snip...

maybe she's just "Resident agent" for the Slaver's Bay? FM seem to operate worldwide and esp. in Essos

snip...

:agree: She could be another example of an agent that could be in the field long term like Jaqen. There may be some interesting parallels between the two of them in the story.

Resident agents would definitely make their lives easier with the time it takes to travel around. We had the 11? 12? agents routinely meet in Braavos but they're hired from all around the world.

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OK, so I am doing a re-read of the series and right now I am doing SoS. I'm reading a Dany chapter and some small tidbits just stuck out to me and reminded me of this theory. It's nothing major, just phrases and wording that I found interesting that could be slight foreshadowing or support of the theory.

-"The little scribe with big golden eyes was wise beyond her years. She isbrave as well. She had t obe, to survive the life she's lived" (I know she's a slave, but she doesn't even flinch when she sees the other children disembowled on the trek to M.; and wise beyond her years...)

-Dany refers to Naath as "the fabled isle of Naath" albeit, it's because she's heard of it and it sounds lovely and she's never seen it...is it on any of the maps? then she swears she will take Missandei home one day and she replies "This one is content to stay with you, Your Grace, Naath will be there, always. You are good to this-to me" (I find it only vaguely interesting that Missandei would not want to return to her beautiful fabled isle, then again, that could easily be explained if she has a true attachment to Dany...also again, her change of this one to me)

-"She heard the city fall from half a league away, though, when the defenders' shouts of defiance changed to cries of fear. Her dragons had roared as one in that moment, filling the night with flame. The salves are rising, she knew at once. My sewer rats have gnawed off their chains" (I find it interesting that at the same time the "slaves" broke free from their chaings that the dragons "roared as one" and Dany knew immediately that the slaves had started to rise. How would she, or her dragons, know that at precisely that moment the slaves had been freed?)

-The use of Dany being called "Mother" she is not only the "Mother" of dragons, but of slaves as well.

-"I want your leaders" dany told them. "Give them up, and the rest of you shall be spared."

"How many?" one old woman had asked, sobbing. "How many musty ou have to spare us?"

"One hundred and sixty three" she answered.

....The anger was fierce and hot inside her when she gave the command; it made her feel like an avenging dragon...It was just. It was. I did it for the children. (NOW- a few things with this passage 1)she felt like an avenging dragon, if dragons were indeed at one point slaves, who were able to turn on their masters, they would be avenging themselves. The last part "I did it for the children", who else says that in the story? That's right, Varys. To Ned. What could that mean? No clue as we have no idea what Varys plans are yet)

-Missandei is the last person she looks at when contemplating who would betray her next.

-Dany is on her balcony contemplating her city and the fact that there is "no one in the world she could trust" then Missandei appears at her elbow and Dany says "Never lie to me, Missandei. Never betray me." to which she replies "I never would, look, dawn comes". (Again, Dany is contemplating betrayl and Missandei appears right there and then when asking her never to lie or betray her...well that was a quick change of topic for Missandei! 'i never willl, look, dawn!')

-Last but not least, "Your Grace, the slavers brought their doom on themselves" said Daario Naharis...(the slavers brought DOOM on themselves, I just found that an interesting choice word).

I think the Targs bonding with their dragons as opposed to binding their dragons is going to be a big deal. I think that slavers would have used a binding horn, where as, like others suggest, Targs have a bond with their dragons like Starks have with their wolves, it's just a natural affinity.

Part of me is starting to wonder if the two of them (dragons and Targs) were not in some form of bondage together, or if the Targs are the ones who initiated getting the dragons out of bondage.

Just my mad thoughts at 3:30 am.....

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OK, so I am doing a re-read of the series and right now I am doing SoS. I'm reading a Dany chapter and some small tidbits just stuck out to me and reminded me of this theory. It's nothing major, just phrases and wording that I found interesting that could be slight foreshadowing or support of the theory.

-"The little scribe with big golden eyes was wise beyond her years. She isbrave as well. She had t obe, to survive the life she's lived" (I know she's a slave, but she doesn't even flinch when she sees the other children disembowled on the trek to M.; and wise beyond her years...)

-Dany refers to Naath as "the fabled isle of Naath" albeit, it's because she's heard of it and it sounds lovely and she's never seen it...is it on any of the maps? then she swears she will take Missandei home one day and she replies "This one is content to stay with you, Your Grace, Naath will be there, always. You are good to this-to me" (I find it only vaguely interesting that Missandei would not want to return to her beautiful fabled isle, then again, that could easily be explained if she has a true attachment to Dany...also again, her change of this one to me)

-"She heard the city fall from half a league away, though, when the defenders' shouts of defiance changed to cries of fear. Her dragons had roared as one in that moment, filling the night with flame. The salves are rising, she knew at once. My sewer rats have gnawed off their chains" (I find it interesting that at the same time the "slaves" broke free from their chaings that the dragons "roared as one" and Dany knew immediately that the slaves had started to rise. How would she, or her dragons, know that at precisely that moment the slaves had been freed?)

-The use of Dany being called "Mother" she is not only the "Mother" of dragons, but of slaves as well.

-"I want your leaders" dany told them. "Give them up, and the rest of you shall be spared."

"How many?" one old woman had asked, sobbing. "How many musty ou have to spare us?"

"One hundred and sixty three" she answered.

....The anger was fierce and hot inside her when she gave the command; it made her feel like an avenging dragon...It was just. It was. I did it for the children. (NOW- a few things with this passage 1)she felt like an avenging dragon, if dragons were indeed at one point slaves, who were able to turn on their masters, they would be avenging themselves. The last part "I did it for the children", who else says that in the story? That's right, Varys. To Ned. What could that mean? No clue as we have no idea what Varys plans are yet)

-Missandei is the last person she looks at when contemplating who would betray her next.

-Dany is on her balcony contemplating her city and the fact that there is "no one in the world she could trust" then Missandei appears at her elbow and Dany says "Never lie to me, Missandei. Never betray me." to which she replies "I never would, look, dawn comes". (Again, Dany is contemplating betrayl and Missandei appears right there and then when asking her never to lie or betray her...well that was a quick change of topic for Missandei! 'i never willl, look, dawn!')

-Last but not least, "Your Grace, the slavers brought their doom on themselves" said Daario Naharis...(the slavers brought DOOM on themselves, I just found that an interesting choice word).

I think the Targs bonding with their dragons as opposed to binding their dragons is going to be a big deal. I think that slavers would have used a binding horn, where as, like others suggest, Targs have a bond with their dragons like Starks have with their wolves, it's just a natural affinity.

Part of me is starting to wonder if the two of them (dragons and Targs) were not in some form of bondage together, or if the Targs are the ones who initiated getting the dragons out of bondage.

Just my mad thoughts at 3:30 am.....

OUUUUU me likes your last bit,i've trying to pitch that idea on a thread i started ,i think there is proof that maybe Dragonlords are their versions of Wargs .Yeah some things will be different like i don't believe that the Targs can Warg their Dragons,but the bonds they could potentially have can be just as strong.I think the Targs among the 40 Dragonlord families that lived do have a bond that transcends whip,horn and sorcery.

As to Missandei i wrote a one liner about her earlier in this thread,her knowledge and her description leads to be believe she is a lot older than she appears and that she may be one of the COTF.Leaf had stated that she roamed the world of men for 200yrs watching and learning.Who is to say the COTF don't have an agent keeping tabs on Dany and the Dragons.

Edit: To add a snippet

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OK, so I am doing a re-read of the series and right now I am doing SoS. I'm reading a Dany chapter and some small tidbits just stuck out to me and reminded me of this theory. It's nothing major, just phrases and wording that I found interesting that could be slight foreshadowing or support of the theory.

-"The little scribe with big golden eyes was wise beyond her years. She isbrave as well. She had t obe, to survive the life she's lived" (I know she's a slave, but she doesn't even flinch when she sees the other children disembowled on the trek to M.; and wise beyond her years...)

-Dany refers to Naath as "the fabled isle of Naath" albeit, it's because she's heard of it and it sounds lovely and she's never seen it...is it on any of the maps?

On one map I see it directly below the ruins of Valyria, but I don't know if its an official map. Northwest of the Sothoryos continent.

then she swears she will take Missandei home one day and she replies "This one is content to stay with you, Your Grace, Naath will be there, always. You are good to this-to me" (I find it only vaguely interesting that Missandei would not want to return to her beautiful fabled isle, then again, that could easily be explained if she has a true attachment to Dany...also again, her change of this one to me)

-"She heard the city fall from half a league away, though, when the defenders' shouts of defiance changed to cries of fear. Her dragons had roared as one in that moment, filling the night with flame. The salves are rising, she knew at once. My sewer rats have gnawed off their chains" (I find it interesting that at the same time the "slaves" broke free from their chaings that the dragons "roared as one" and Dany knew immediately that the slaves had started to rise. How would she, or her dragons, know that at precisely that moment the slaves had been freed?)

-The use of Dany being called "Mother" she is not only the "Mother" of dragons, but of slaves as well.

-"I want your leaders" dany told them. "Give them up, and the rest of you shall be spared."

"How many?" one old woman had asked, sobbing. "How many musty ou have to spare us?"

"One hundred and sixty three" she answered.

....The anger was fierce and hot inside her when she gave the command; it made her feel like an avenging dragon...It was just. It was. I did it for the children. (NOW- a few things with this passage 1)she felt like an avenging dragon, if dragons were indeed at one point slaves, who were able to turn on their masters, they would be avenging themselves. The last part "I did it for the children", who else says that in the story? That's right, Varys. To Ned. What could that mean? No clue as we have no idea what Varys plans are yet)

-Missandei is the last person she looks at when contemplating who would betray her next.

-Dany is on her balcony contemplating her city and the fact that there is "no one in the world she could trust" then Missandei appears at her elbow and Dany says "Never lie to me, Missandei. Never betray me." to which she replies "I never would, look, dawn comes". (Again, Dany is contemplating betrayl and Missandei appears right there and then when asking her never to lie or betray her...well that was a quick change of topic for Missandei! 'i never willl, look, dawn!')

lol, its the "distract the baby with the pretty shiny thing" defense! :ph34r:

-Last but not least, "Your Grace, the slavers brought their doom on themselves" said Daario Naharis...(the slavers brought DOOM on themselves, I just found that an interesting choice word).

I think the Targs bonding with their dragons as opposed to binding their dragons is going to be a big deal. I think that slavers would have used a binding horn, where as, like others suggest, Targs have a bond with their dragons like Starks have with their wolves, it's just a natural affinity.

Part of me is starting to wonder if the two of them (dragons and Targs) were not in some form of bondage together, or if the Targs are the ones who initiated getting the dragons out of bondage.

Just my mad thoughts at 3:30 am.....

Wonderfully mad!!

Wow thank you for posting this! There are some things i had never considered before. I'd forgotten about that doom quote, honestly I think it may be what started my wondering about this whole enslavement angle in the first place.

Missandei's reaction to seeing the dead children along the road is not documented, but yah I would think that any 11 year old, even a genius, would have a tough time seeing it. However the 10th quote I had shows she was perfectly fine tending to Mr. Fried-to-a-crisp Quentyn in his last hours. I wish there was more about her reaction to help build a more definite case, but alas, GRRM is silent. :crying:

Dany's and the dragons reactions and the timing of them for instance seem to show a mutual, synced attitude towards what's going on at the same time.

That's twice now that I can see the dragons' reactions as being especially active in regards to slavery in the text. First in Astapor as the slavers visit and now at the moment the city falls they all roar together instantly. Its really curious that when it comes to slavery, they are as intelligent about the situation as any human. I mean its not like Irri and Jhiqui think the dragons have the intelligence of people and converse with them, yet in Astapor when people come on board that happen to be slavers they immediately freak out. As Mereen fell no one had to explain it, maybe they just "got it" somehow from Dany in that instant and simultaneously reacted, but you can't even say that about Astapor, because Dany wasn't even on the ship when the slavers came to see them.

hmmm... hope you'll forgive me this longer post all these quotes are making me brainstorm...

I don't think anything has been previously explained about whether the Targaryens were dragonlords or slaves in Old Valyria. I think there is a strong possibility that Targaryens were slaves working with the dragons in the mines because of this resistance to heat thing that crops up in the story over multiple generations. (both Egg and Dany) If the job was shared with the Dragons, then I can see how Dragons would develop a bond with them over time as they toiled together that they wouldn't have shared with the Dragonlords binding them. What's interesting too is that Dany always angrily states I am the blood of the dragon. Just as the Starks/Snow who acknowledge their links with their wolves as being a part of them.

I wonder if "Dragonbinder" might possibly bind HER now. Hm. Mad thought of the day.

On the "I did it for the children." phrase in relation to Varys. I'm of the opinion that Varys probably knows the song/prophesy of ice and fire, having been Aerys' master of whispers, and part of his setup to bring Aegon/(f)Aegon into the picture is to act out the part of things that are in the prophesy to make his comeback seem legit. Saying his "little birds" are everywhere all the time when clearly we see Bloodraven and Bran in the birds, and now this phrase you've pointed out, might point to that possibility.

OUUUUU me likes your last bit,i've trying to pitch that idea on a thread i started ,i think there is proof that maybe Dragonlords are their versions of Wargs .Yeah some things will be different like i don't believe that the Targs can Warg their Dragons,but the bonds they could potentially have can be just as strong.I think the Targs among the 40 Dragonlord families that lived do have a bond that transcends whip,horn and sorcery.

As to Missandei i wrote a one liner about her earlier in this thread,her knowledge and her description leads to be believe she is a lot older than she appears and that she may be one of the COTF.Leaf had stated that she roamed the world of men for 200yrs watching and learning.Who is to say the COTF don't have an agent keeping tabs on Dany and the Dragons.

Edit: To add a snippet

Yah I'm definitely in agreement with you that there is some strong sort of bond going on with the dragons. Word purists seem to freak out at the word "warg" because its the norse word for wolf, but we don't actually HAVE a word for a dragon equivalent in the story. I actually did a quick search and found "dreki" is the Old Norse word for dragon. Sounds funny to me, but it could work. Do you want me to post that in your thread? I wonder if GRRM will end up using it in future books. (place your bets people! XD)

The quotes above and the search for a COTF link made me think about the crannogmen a few days ago. At first I wondered why the Naathi would be the only ones supposedly related to the COTF, and they live on an isolated island, but they're not. Crannogmen are said to be related to the COTF too and they live on a fabled island (Greywater watch) that moves around in the bog and makes it hard to find. Could the fabled isle of Naath move too I wonder? And is it their COTF cousins that help them move it? Could COTF prefer islands for some reason - like the ability to move them for their own defense - because so far we have hints at FOUR different islands and FOUR different offshoots of CotF:

  1. Naath - the Naathi

  2. Greywater Watch - the crannogmen

  3. Isle of Faces - the green men - an order created at the pact to guard southern weirwoods, not necessarily related to CotF, and according Jojen's story to Bran, they still existed on the isle of faces around the time of Harrenhal. Are the green men IN THE TREES? are they ANCIENT GREENSEERS? At the time of the pact the fable is they carved faces into the trees, but what if its the faces of the greenseers that got shoved into the trees?

  4. Another thing to note, is that temples in Braavos, including the temple of the many faced god and moonsingers are located on the Isle of the Gods. If the CotF are most comfortable on islands then its another clue that they may also be comfortable working in the home base of the Faceless Men, as we don't really hear about any other places where they have temples or houses of worship yet, other then Braavos.

Now #3 leads into my other personal crackpot that the pact wasn't a stalemate, history just thought it was more pleasant to write it that way. My thought is that its possible the first men just lost the war completely and the pact was a surrender pact. The CotF won, and henceforth, the first men in the North were enslaved/bound to the CotF or whoever the winning party was. Mostly I think humans lost their own personal magic, or maybe they didn't have it in the first place and were only selectively granted stuff south of the wall in order for the ruling order that got established to keep the realms of men in line. Its one potential path for the story to link up slavery in Essos to slavery in Westeros, but certainly it may not be the only one out there.

IIRC its the greenmen that live on the isle of faces, and the Harrenhal story told to Bran suggests Howland Reed vistied them.

So based on this we know that CotF and humans are buddies, but usually in an island setting. If an Isle is island-like enough, then the HoB&W qualifies. CotF may even be living among men in those islands, because if incredible things like islands moving are happening, and the CotF do incredible things like bring down the hammer and they end up making islands, maybe there's a whole bunch of island magic going on here. :-)

No.

lol

OK! :laugh:

edit: I realized I forgot to update the number of islands in my list from 3 to 4

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Targs and dragons toiling together is exactly the crackpotishness I was headed towards. I like that you point out about the islands! And I didn't even make any connections in similarities between Greywater and Naath until you pointed it out!

I've always wondered what the "I am blood of the dragon" really means. There was a point where I thought perhaps the Targs and their dragons...ahem...literally had "relations". The reason I thought this was because of the deformity of Dany's son (resembled a deformed human/dragon concotion) as well as Tyrion (for those who are A+J=T theorists) the fact that his resemblence is relatively close to the resemblence of Dany's son (joke about him having a tail, monstrous, twisted, stunted etc AND he loves his bacon "burnt to a crisp") ....

BUT...

Now that I've started reading this thread I'm starting to really really question what the "I am the blood of the dragon" statement means. Obviously it's significant, can it be taken literally? Not sure. Symbolic, absolutely. A combination of the two, most likely.

AND- I never thought about the horn "binding" Dany! That's an excellent observation.

Oh, and as an afterthought, as you point out, the Targs and Dragons could have toiled together in the caves due to the Targs ability to be heat...resistent? I mean, we know from the KM story that the slaves feet and hands would burn but that it was insufferably hot. Dany's hands were burnt when she went to Drogon (but amazingly, nothing else was), and Jon's hands were burnt when he grabbed the torch to kill the wights but after his incident it is noted that his wounds are "smoking" much like Drogon's wounds were "smoking" when he was hit with the spears/arrows. So we know Targs are not "fire proof" but perhaps they have a tendency to be flame resistent? LOL I wonder if Dany's wounds would "smoke" if she were to get stabbed?

Madness, this thread is absolute madness!

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Lovely thread development! IIRC there is some mention of Braavos being difficult to navigate to, one channel deep enough for sea vessels or something like that.

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On one map I see it directly below the ruins of Valyria, but I don't know if its an official map. Northwest of the Sothoryos continent.

lol, its the "distract the baby with the pretty shiny thing" defense! :ph34r:

Wonderfully mad!!

Wow thank you for posting this! There are some things i had never considered before. I'd forgotten about that doom quote, honestly I think it may be what started my wondering about this whole enslavement angle in the first place.

Missandei's reaction to seeing the dead children along the road is not documented, but yah I would think that any 11 year old, even a genius, would have a tough time seeing it. However the 10th quote I had shows she was perfectly fine tending to Mr. Fried-to-a-crisp Quentyn in his last hours. I wish there was more about her reaction to help build a more definite case, but alas, GRRM is silent. :crying:

Dany's and the dragons reactions and the timing of them for instance seem to show a mutual, synced attitude towards what's going on at the same time.

That's twice now that I can see the dragons' reactions as being especially active in regards to slavery in the text. First in Astapor as the slavers visit and now at the moment the city falls they all roar together instantly. Its really curious that when it comes to slavery, they are as intelligent about the situation as any human. I mean its not like Irri and Jhiqui think the dragons have the intelligence of people and converse with them, yet in Astapor when people come on board that happen to be slavers they immediately freak out. As Mereen fell no one had to explain it, maybe they just "got it" somehow from Dany in that instant and simultaneously reacted, but you can't even say that about Astapor, because Dany wasn't even on the ship when the slavers came to see them.

hmmm... hope you'll forgive me this longer post all these quotes are making me brainstorm...

I don't think anything has been previously explained about whether the Targaryens were dragonlords or slaves in Old Valyria. I think there is a strong possibility that Targaryens were slaves working with the dragons in the mines because of this resistance to heat thing that crops up in the story over multiple generations. (both Egg and Dany) If the job was shared with the Dragons, then I can see how Dragons would develop a bond with them over time as they toiled together that they wouldn't have shared with the Dragonlords binding them. What's interesting too is that Dany always angrily states I am the blood of the dragon. Just as the Starks/Snow who acknowledge their links with their wolves as being a part of them.

I wonder if "Dragonbinder" might possibly bind HER now. Hm. Mad thought of the day.

On the "I did it for the children." phrase in relation to Varys. I'm of the opinion that Varys probably knows the song/prophesy of ice and fire, having been Aerys' master of whispers, and part of his setup to bring Aegon/(f)Aegon into the picture is to act out the part of things that are in the prophesy to make his comeback seem legit. Saying his "little birds" are everywhere all the time when clearly we see Bloodraven and Bran in the birds, and now this phrase you've pointed out, might point to that possibility.

Yah I'm definitely in agreement with you that there is some strong sort of bond going on with the dragons. Word purists seem to freak out at the word "warg" because its the norse word for wolf, but we don't actually HAVE a word for a dragon equivalent in the story. I actually did a quick search and found "dreki" is the Old Norse word for dragon. Sounds funny to me, but it could work. Do you want me to post that in your thread? I wonder if GRRM will end up using it in future books. (place your bets people! XD)

The quotes above and the search for a COTF link made me think about the crannogmen a few days ago. At first I wondered why the Naathi would be the only ones supposedly related to the COTF, and they live on an isolated island, but they're not. Crannogmen are said to be related to the COTF too and they live on a fabled island (Greywater watch) that moves around in the bog and makes it hard to find. Could the fabled isle of Naath move too I wonder? And is it their COTF cousins that help them move it? Could COTF prefer islands for some reason - like the ability to move them for their own defense - because so far we have hints at FOUR different islands and FOUR different offshoots of CotF:

  1. Naath - the Naathi

  2. Greywater Watch - the crannogmen

  3. Isle of Faces - the green men - an order created at the pact to guard southern weirwoods, not necessarily related to CotF, and according Jojen's story to Bran, they still existed on the isle of faces around the time of Harrenhal. Are the green men IN THE TREES? are they ANCIENT GREENSEERS? At the time of the pact the fable is they carved faces into the trees, but what if its the faces of the greenseers that got shoved into the trees?

  4. Another thing to note, is that temples in Braavos, including the temple of the many faced god and moonsingers are located on the Isle of the Gods. If the CotF are most comfortable on islands then its another clue that they may also be comfortable working in the home base of the Faceless Men, as we don't really hear about any other places where they have temples or houses of worship yet, other then Braavos.

Now #3 leads into my other personal crackpot that the pact wasn't a stalemate, history just thought it was more pleasant to write it that way. My thought is that its possible the first men just lost the war completely and the pact was a surrender pact. The CotF won, and henceforth, the first men in the North were enslaved/bound to the CotF or whoever the winning party was. Mostly I think humans lost their own personal magic, or maybe they didn't have it in the first place and were only selectively granted stuff south of the wall in order for the ruling order that got established to keep the realms of men in line. Its one potential path for the story to link up slavery in Essos to slavery in Westeros, but certainly it may not be the only one out there.

IIRC its the greenmen that live on the isle of faces, and the Harrenhal story told to Bran suggests Howland Reed vistied them.

So based on this we know that CotF and humans are buddies, but usually in an island setting. If an Isle is island-like enough, then the HoB&W qualifies. CotF may even be living among men in those islands, because if incredible things like islands moving are happening, and the CotF do incredible things like bring down the hammer and they end up making islands, maybe there's a whole bunch of island magic going on here. :-)

lol

OK! :laugh:

edit: I realized I forgot to update the number of islands in my list from 3 to 4

Thank you i greatly appreciate it, i think there are clues that allude to the fact that there is a "warglike" bond not exactly but just as intense and just as genetically linked.I resigned myself to calling Dany a Dreki its sounds funny, but i like it,at lease it will stop have people going batshit over the use of the word Warg to refer to Dany ,even though it is being used as a comparative analogy.

Targs and dragons toiling together is exactly the crackpotishness I was headed towards. I like that you point out about the islands! And I didn't even make any connections in similarities between Greywater and Naath until you pointed it out!

I've always wondered what the "I am blood of the dragon" really means. There was a point where I thought perhaps the Targs and their dragons...ahem...literally had "relations". The reason I thought this was because of the deformity of Dany's son (resembled a deformed human/dragon concotion) as well as Tyrion (for those who are A+J=T theorists) the fact that his resemblence is relatively close to the resemblence of Dany's son (joke about him having a tail, monstrous, twisted, stunted etc AND he loves his bacon "burnt to a crisp") ....

BUT...

Now that I've started reading this thread I'm starting to really really question what the "I am the blood of the dragon" statement means. Obviously it's significant, can it be taken literally? Not sure. Symbolic, absolutely. A combination of the two, most likely.

AND- I never thought about the horn "binding" Dany! That's an excellent observation.

Oh, and as an afterthought, as you point out, the Targs and Dragons could have toiled together in the caves due to the Targs ability to be heat...resistent? I mean, we know from the KM story that the slaves feet and hands would burn but that it was insufferably hot. Dany's hands were burnt when she went to Drogon (but amazingly, nothing else was), and Jon's hands were burnt when he grabbed the torch to kill the wights but after his incident it is noted that his wounds are "smoking" much like Drogon's wounds were "smoking" when he was hit with the spears/arrows. So we know Targs are not "fire proof" but perhaps they have a tendency to be flame resistent? LOL I wonder if Dany's wounds would "smoke" if she were to get stabbed?

Madness, this thread is absolute madness!

I like where we are going with this,this is some real crackpot stuff and a lot of people seem to be resistant to this bond.But i believe just as the Starks were set apart from amongst the first men to bond with Direwolves, i believe the Targs were set apart from amongst the other Dragonlord families to bond with the Dragons.Is it a wonder why there family alone were saved from the doom, they were like the Noah of Valeria.If it wasn't for that prophetic dream given to Daenes Targ they would have been screwed.

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To start with, I just wanted to say I'll check in on this thread every few days instead of every day now. I think its great that the questions seemed to have been dealt with now and we're progressing on to brainstorming and giving voice to crackpotty questions. This type of post usually needs time to brew in my head though. :D

Targs and dragons toiling together is exactly the crackpotishness I was headed towards. I like that you point out about the islands! And I didn't even make any connections in similarities between Greywater and Naath until you pointed it out!

Just want to point out that I'm pointing out (as you say) similarities and not stating that all of these islands are for sure inhabited by CotF. But I have to admit, once all four of them popped up as having similarities in people, similar magical attributes, and/or CotF stories linked to them it does seem like they're something weirdly connected there doesn't it! And all islands!!!

I've always wondered what the "I am blood of the dragon" really means. There was a point where I thought perhaps the Targs and their dragons...ahem...literally had "relations". The reason I thought this was because of the deformity of Dany's son (resembled a deformed human/dragon concotion) as well as Tyrion (for those who are A+J=T theorists) the fact that his resemblence is relatively close to the resemblence of Dany's son (joke about him having a tail, monstrous, twisted, stunted etc AND he loves his bacon "burnt to a crisp") ....

BUT...

Now that I've started reading this thread I'm starting to really really question what the "I am the blood of the dragon" statement means. Obviously it's significant, can it be taken literally? Not sure. Symbolic, absolutely. A combination of the two, most likely.

To have Dany repeat it so often during the text, and Dany doesn't know anything about herself or her history, means being the "blood of the dragon" has to be something intrinsic to her. Something she is and not just a birthright to a throne, or the story just isn't set up right somehow.

I admit dragon human relations crossed my mind... but then quickly left it just because it seemed like the logistics of it just couldn't make it practically possible. Maybe it was sorcerous nookie. With sorcery all things are possible. :laugh:

Maybe the Stark's alternate words for their banner should be ICE and blood to match the Targaryens FIRE and blood? The latest few posts have me turning around in my mind whether somehow man was gifted abilities in two different iterations to take over the magics from the waning populations of the world.

We know Leaf mentions to Bran that the CotF are in their great dwindling along with the giants and animals, but could the Others be dwindling too? Or are they rising? Why do they have to dwindle anyway? Could the cycle of death/rebirth be stuck because of magical shenanigans? Or it could just be that humans started to be born with these gifts because of great dwindlings too, and the magic had to go somewhere, but who knows. (only GRRM)

I really feel as if the Faceless Men, even if they are not now from the race of the CotF, they could easily have had their beginnings among them. The question is, what role do CotF Faceless Men have to play when it comes to them giving their gift of death, and are they trying to transition of the duties of Faceless Men to human men in the world?

It seems like its a possibility that both CotF and humans can be Faceless Men. We really don't know how they get their orders to kill someone but the just the name "many faced god" seems to be synonymous with the weirwoods and the CotF seem to have a better general bond with the weirwoods then humans do.

Was the first faceless man a man in Valyria, or could he have been a CotF? If he was a CotF, could he have been spying on Old Valyria 1000 years ago because it was a rising magical power, or could the CotF have been a slave? I don't think the latter is as likely as the former, since they could have taken off in tunnels and had a whole safe continent(s) to run to.

Initially they could have been there to spy on the Valyrians, because they were a rising magical power in the world and wanted to keep tabs on them, but then their ancestors in the trees (many faced god) were agreeing "what the hell! this poor guy wants to die! why not!" and so they started giving the gift in mercy to the suffering slaves. This then started the CotF on a path of being quietly opposed to Valyria, and all their enslaved dragons since they were bound to do what their masters wanted them to do. Eventually they help fashion the secret city of Braavos and lead some slaves there to found it. We don't hear much about the founding moonsingers, but maybe this is their "living" face and the many faced god is their "death" face.

Because they have the ability to move and therefore shape the earth (who says it takes a hammer to transform the earth in AWOIAF, greywater watch moves, so we know smaller moves are possible) they form the isle of the gods in the middle of it (hence the underground tunnel structure in the temple, exactly like the BWB base, and cavern Bran is in and other places hinted at) and the CotF can travel underground to get there.

AND- I never thought about the horn "binding" Dany! That's an excellent observation.

Oh, and as an afterthought, as you point out, the Targs and Dragons could have toiled together in the caves due to the Targs ability to be heat...resistent? I mean, we know from the KM story that the slaves feet and hands would burn but that it was insufferably hot. Dany's hands were burnt when she went to Drogon (but amazingly, nothing else was), and Jon's hands were burnt when he grabbed the torch to kill the wights but after his incident it is noted that his wounds are "smoking" much like Drogon's wounds were "smoking" when he was hit with the spears/arrows. So we know Targs are not "fire proof" but perhaps they have a tendency to be flame resistent? LOL I wonder if Dany's wounds would "smoke" if she were to get stabbed?

Madness, this thread is absolute madness!

I love Madness. :-) Can't bake a theory cake without cracking a few pots. Expect it takes a few tries to make something edible too. (although I'll eat most any bad cake until someone shows me how to make a better one. :laugh: )

The binding Dany thing is just another possibility I'm throwing on the wall of theory to see what could stick. :laugh:

Just FYI on where I currently come from on the targs and fire and heat thing for the purposes of discussion:

  • I think Dany is drogon fire proof. (drogon's fire burnt her hair off completely, but left no burns on her skin)
  • I don't know if Dany is all dragon fire proof.
  • I don't think Dany is regular fire proof.
  • I don't think Dany is burning heat proof. (the spear burnt her hands when she removed it from Drogon in ADWD)
  • I think Dany is generally heat resistant to scalding temperatures. (This because of three stories across generations to do with the blood of the dragons/Old Valyria - Egg's bath temperature preference (scalding), Dany's bath temperature preference (scalding), the general temperature of work in the mines for the slaves (scalding). GRRM uses that word in all three instances.)

I think there is a definite difference between dragon fire and regular fire.

The colors of fire each dragon breathes are different and seem to correspond to colors in dragonglass. (frozen fire is the alternate name according to Sam)

Lovely thread development! IIRC there is some mention of Braavos being difficult to navigate to, one channel deep enough for sea vessels or something like that.

This made me wonder (seen above) if Braavos was completely made by the CotF. Thank you so much for this comment. It adds yet another mystery to Braavos itself now since we have:

  • An isle for the gods, including HoB&W, which happens to include the rapidly becoming standard creepy underground tunnels and chambers as seen in Westeros.
  • A city that was specifically chosen for its distance from Old Valyria and had the perhaps unnatural ability to hide from airborne dragons, possibly the specifically enslaved ones from Old Valyria, but was well known during the time of the Targ dragons.
  • Now the possibility that a very specific narrow channel was terraformed below so that the one channel they needed was narrow and long enough to entrap enemies but deep enough to be viable for commerce.
  • How to explain titan of braavos? Man made or possibly CotF made?

Could the channel have been terraformed by weirwood roots at the bottom of the ocean? We know the tunnels go to the center of the earth according to Leaf in ADWD and there are many of them, but is it possible the weirwood roots go that low and expand out into Essos as well?

Thank you i greatly appreciate it, i think there are clues that allude to the fact that there is a "warglike" bond not exactly but just as intense and just as genetically linked.I resigned myself to calling Dany a Dreki its sounds funny, but i like it,at lease it will stop have people going batshit over the use of the word Warg to refer to Dany ,even though it is being used as a comparative analogy.

I like where we are going with this,this is some real crackpot stuff and a lot of people seem to be resistant to this bond.But i believe just as the Starks were set apart from amongst the first men to bond with Direwolves, i believe the Targs were set apart from amongst the other Dragonlord families to bond with the Dragons.Is it a wonder why there family alone were saved from the doom, they were like the Noah of Valeria.If it wasn't for that prophetic dream given to Daenes Targ they would have been screwed.

I do wonder why people resist the thought of a bond other then just the word for the bond not being defined in the story... Maybe if we ask the mods nicely they can do a word poll or something to see what the forum thinks, maybe by getting past the word tripping people up they'll be progress on subject itself.

I mean, out of everything I've written above for how I see things possibly happening in the books, there are for sure things that are unknowns that can't be explained in the story or haven't been explained yet. (Why the FM didn't just ask for the Dragonbinder horn from Euron, for instance. Nyos I haven't forgotten that one!) But I'm not going to stop guessing because unknowns haven't been explained yet.

I think the link is there, subtle in the book though, but there. Dany's dragon blood and what it means is the hugest mystery and we haven't heard nearly enough about what it means yet and we know other characters do and we haven't been told what they know. I agree, Daena the dreamer and Aenar the exile really dodged the doom bullet. There is for sure an element of "the chosen family" thing going on.

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Another thing that is interesting, as pointed out by The Others Take Ya, Dany when saying she is "blood of the dragon" is saying it, but it's almost as though she's saying it by wrote, not because she understands the deeper meaning of it, which I think is important. She thinks that she is "blood of the dragon" because she is Targ, which undoubtedly is true, but I think there is much more significance to the saying. Likewise, the Starks saying is "Winter is coming" and "the North remembers" HOWEVER, similar to Dany, I think they say these things by wrote, without truly knowing/remebering the deeper meaning of the words. "Winter is coming" in the series, Ned says that it means, essentially, no matter how hard things get, they are going to get harder, and "The North remembers" is to remind those that do them wrong that they will get their comuppence eventually because, well, the North remembers. But I think the words and sayings go further than that. I think that both Dany, and the most recent generation of Starks, are saying the words without truly knowing the meaning, which I think will have a magical connection, something to do with the coming war of worlds so to speak.

I also found it interesting during my re-read of SoS that Weirwood seems to be used everywhere, even for those who do not worship the Old Gods. In the Vale, they cannot grow a Godswood because the trees will not take root, but the chairs and doors are made of Weirwood. At the HoBaW in Bravvos they use Weirwood, same for the door at the Nightfort, I think I want to say somewhere in the LC rooms at KL perhaps a table?....there are some others that are slipping my mind but I know there were tons of references to weirwood being used for furniture/doors etc throughout (especially the end) of SoS, so the weirwood seems to be used all over Westeros and some other parts of the world...I just find that very interesting, especially as no one seems to worship the Old Gods in Westeros, yet they all use weirwood...maybe they used the weirwood out of contempt for the Old Gods? I imagine that would come with some reprecussions eventually, especially as we've seen how worshipers of the Old Gods flip out when the weirwood gets burned. Then too, burning is much different than converting it into another use.....I guess my point is, all that weirwood (and the fact that it's been pointed out at length) has to have signficance. I also think it's of worth to note that in some other threads people have related Melisandre's red eyes to the Weirwood red eyes, but Jon makes a clear distinction that she is not of the Old Gods at all, upon Ghosts return he is comparing the eyes of ghost to the eyes of Melisandre at which point he states that Melisandre's eyes are different, and that Ghost's eyes are that of a weirwood.

Also, I wanted to clarify, which OP sort of did for me, I'm not saying Dany is "fire proof" I absolutely do NOT think that, as evidenced by the fact that her hands get burnt, her hair gets burnt etc...but the fact that the dragon fire did not burn the rest of her when it did burn off her hair, and burnt her hands...well that's pretty significant, especially as we know that Quentyn got burnt to a crispt by dragon fire. Perhaps it's just some sort of resistence, or tolerance to fire or as the OP says, scalding...but something significant is happening there and it's for a reason, otherwise, when Drogon blew flames she would have been a crispy critter like Quentyn.

And back to the Targs having "relations" with their dragons, something that just popped into my head....Dany did not physically give birth to her dragons, they did not come from her body, but I find it interesting that she did nurse them, with her milk, from her body. Granted, it was available due to her stillbirth, but still an interesting tidbit I think.....also, there has been speculation on other threads that those who give birth to Targ babies have a higher death rate....Joanna (if you believe A+J=T), Lyanna (if you believe R+L=J), Elia, Dany's mother....just saying.

I would also like to apologize for derailing this thread but there are just so many offshoots for different topic/theory development that relate to the OP and grew from there.

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First, sorry if it took me longer to reply to you then I thought, the Others took my power supply in the computer I usually use so I had to fiddle around and swap it out for a new one. Plus, long weekend. :)

Another thing that is interesting, as pointed out by The Others Take Ya, Dany when saying she is "blood of the dragon" is saying it, but it's almost as though she's saying it by wrote, not because she understands the deeper meaning of it, which I think is important. She thinks that she is "blood of the dragon" because she is Targ, which undoubtedly is true, but I think there is much more significance to the saying.

Yah, I'm wondering about the word on the dragonbinder horn in comparison to the words of the Targaryen house now in relation to this. The horn says "Blood for fire, fire for blood" but the Targaryen words are "fire AND blood". For Targaryens does this imply that they don't need no stinkin' horn? They just take both the fire and the blood and its all theirs, screw whatever magical "exchange" or "price" is meant to normally take place?

The absolutely wonderful, incredible, fascinating Tze had a post regarding Dany and her visit into the HotU and IIRC her post intimated that she should have been paying a price for the magical visions that she received from them, and that she got the sweet end of the deal because she got the visions and then Drogon toasted them, effectively giving her something for nothing. Same with Astapor, she hands them a dragon for payment and then goes "by the way, a dragon is no slave" and takes off with all the slaves kills everyone and again, no payment needed. Another theory being speculated about is that as Drogo is burning on his funeral pier and as MMD is chanting away a spell so she isn't harmed by the fire, Dany isn't harmed and MMD dies.

All these situations lead me to believe Dany is a magic stealer of some sort. She just naturally benefits from what others around her are trying to weave against her or around her. And if the dragon horn is what dragonlords in Old Valyria did to bind dragons to them, was this something the Targaryen line was gifted to set them apart from them at, after, or before the doom? The Targaryen family, 100 years after their exile, could have easily returned on their dragons and had an active part in the doom. I can't think of anything that could have stopped them if they were part of making it happen. Which leads back into the whole theory of Targaryens being a part of the FM, and the FM possibly being the ones who made the doom happen.

Another musing... maybe the words "fire and blood" for their house were meant to remind them of their family's gifts even though they now lived in Westeros, a world seemingly with little or no magic.

Likewise, the Starks saying is "Winter is coming" and "the North remembers" HOWEVER, similar to Dany, I think they say these things by wrote, without truly knowing/remebering the deeper meaning of the words. "Winter is coming" in the series, Ned says that it means, essentially, no matter how hard things get, they are going to get harder, and "The North remembers" is to remind those that do them wrong that they will get their comuppence eventually because, well, the North remembers. But I think the words and sayings go further than that. I think that both Dany, and the most recent generation of Starks, are saying the words without truly knowing the meaning, which I think will have a magical connection, something to do with the coming war of worlds so to speak.

I just reread the prologue for ACOK recently and I had never caught the similarities the 2 stone gargoyles at Dragonstone seem to have with the weirwoods in the north. I'm sure its all been mentioned before so I won't elaborate, but since one is a hellhound (wolf?) and the other is a wyrven (dragon?) then the link between the two houses seems carved into the very structure of the Targaryen ancestral home from the beginning. Very curious. Let me know if you want details.

I also found it interesting during my re-read of SoS that Weirwood seems to be used everywhere, even for those who do not worship the Old Gods. In the Vale, they cannot grow a Godswood because the trees will not take root, but the chairs and doors are made of Weirwood. At the HoBaW in Bravvos they use Weirwood, same for the door at the Nightfort, I think I want to say somewhere in the LC rooms at KL perhaps a table?....there are some others that are slipping my mind but I know there were tons of references to weirwood being used for furniture/doors etc throughout (especially the end) of SoS, so the weirwood seems to be used all over Westeros and some other parts of the world...I just find that very interesting, especially as no one seems to worship the Old Gods in Westeros, yet they all use weirwood...maybe they used the weirwood out of contempt for the Old Gods? I imagine that would come with some reprecussions eventually, especially as we've seen how worshipers of the Old Gods flip out when the weirwood gets burned. Then too, burning is much different than converting it into another use.....I guess my point is, all that weirwood (and the fact that it's been pointed out at length) has to have signficance.

My thought is that converting weirwood to another use probably isn't as bad as burning it outright, especially since we see the CotF hand Bran his paste to eat before going into the tree in a weirwood bowl itself. Also when Arya enters the HoB&W she seems to think the doors are watching her and has a full on argument with them before saying the magic words.

It is the burning that makes them freak out. My theory on this is that even if the wood is separated from the tree, the spirits that are in the wood are still in them, but burning them disintegrates the home of the spirits and they fly off either into nothingness, or to past that curtain of light that Bran saw in the far far north, and that's probably the cold dark hell Ned Stark thought of. I think that's the home of the others and they are separated from those they love in the second life they had shared with those they loved in the wiernet.

Because the many faced god has many faces, and said to have many ears with which to hear, plus because the doors of the HoB&W are weirwood and IIRC black stone, it again makes me think the weirwoods and how they work are key to the many faced god, and now these stone statues may explain the "other half" of the doors. Cressen doesn't specifically mention the gargoyles are black, but while on the balcony he describes:

He leaned against the battlement, the sea crashing beneath him, the black stone rough beneath his fingers.

So perhaps there is a link to the doors of the HoB&W there. Specifically that the black stone is as "alive" as the weirwood and has some sort of conciousness to it that makes it the wierwood's other half. Perhaps the black stone of the seastone chair/throne at Pyke is the same stone too. If the black stone was the original "throne" of the CotF, and the others/white walkers used to have the "throne" of the weirwood and got kicked out of it by trickery by the CotF, well, if I was an other, I would be pissed too.

I also think it's of worth to note that in some other threads people have related Melisandre's red eyes to the Weirwood red eyes, but Jon makes a clear distinction that she is not of the Old Gods at all, upon Ghosts return he is comparing the eyes of ghost to the eyes of Melisandre at which point he states that Melisandre's eyes are different, and that Ghost's eyes are that of a weirwood.

Maybe red eyes in general are a sign of blood magic being used or performed? Dany's eyes are purple IIRC, a combination of red and blue. Perhaps that's a sign of a blood line with blood magic. It does seem like blood magic is just common to any type of magic there is, whether it be the white, black, red or green magic we've seen in the books.

Also, I wanted to clarify, which OP sort of did for me, I'm not saying Dany is "fire proof" I absolutely do NOT think that, as evidenced by the fact that her hands get burnt, her hair gets burnt etc...but the fact that the dragon fire did not burn the rest of her when it did burn off her hair, and burnt her hands...well that's pretty significant, especially as we know that Quentyn got burnt to a crispt by dragon fire. Perhaps it's just some sort of resistence, or tolerance to fire or as the OP says, scalding...but something significant is happening there and it's for a reason, otherwise, when Drogon blew flames she would have been a crispy critter like Quentyn.

And back to the Targs having "relations" with their dragons, something that just popped into my head....Dany did not physically give birth to her dragons, they did not come from her body, but I find it interesting that she did nurse them, with her milk, from her body. Granted, it was available due to her stillbirth, but still an interesting tidbit I think.....also, there has been speculation on other threads that those who give birth to Targ babies have a higher death rate....Joanna (if you believe A+J=T), Lyanna (if you believe R+L=J), Elia, Dany's mother....just saying.

Thanks for clarifying. :) I find the more difficult births for Targs thing interesting too. As I've stated elsewhere I think the Targs' health is improved drastically when they have their dragons around them and maybe that's one reason for it. In ADWD when Dany goes from weak as kitten and poopy all over the place to jumping on her dragon for a flight and chowing down on some dinner in the space of a page or two I think there is some correlation there. Seems like a similar bond to Bran and Summer back when he was in a coma. Looking forward to seeing if there is more of that type of thing happening in TWOW.

I would also like to apologize for derailing this thread but there are just so many offshoots for different topic/theory development that relate to the OP and grew from there.

No problem for me, I agree it just offshoots everywhere the darn unruly thing. It needs a strangler hairnet. I know it kind of sucks when threads go off topic, but I think I feel like I've made it an essay thread on the all-encompassing backstory behind the original theory I posted. :ohwell:

Not sure if that's a good thing for readers, but if anyone has any suggestions on how I should be better managing my first OP thread in a way I can still get my ideas across cohesively then please let me know. :)

I really am sorry if the weird format of this has annoyed anybody. :(

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So, getting back to Missy, if she is the FM, then poor old Martel boy may have (very wild assumption here) actually asked for a gift. Otherwise, what of importance would Quen have told her that she kept for herself. Because I don't remember seeing that she passed on any messages to anybody:

"She had been with the prince night and day, tending to such needs as he could express, giving him water and milk of the poppy when he was strong enough to drink, listening to the few tortured words he gasped out from time to time, reading to him when he fell quiet, sleeping in her chair beside him."

Also, it would seem she got a nice face just added to the FM collection. The face we may be seeing yet again:

"After the girl was gone, the old knight peeled back the coverlet for one last look at Quentyn Martell's face, or what remained of it. So much of the prince's flesh had sloughed away that he could see the skull beneath."

ETA: Spelling

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@ Others Take Ya, my shirt is almost done! :laugh: I like where some of your points are heading.I, believe it very possible that of all the Dragonlords the Targs didn't need horns to bind Dragons to them.I don't know maybe they did some kind of an ancient ritual or deal with a fire Dragon-seeing as they are elemental creatures- (fire and blood) to bind dragons to them. This thought kind of reminded me of a story i read a long long time ago -i have to look for it- In a nutshell the fire( life essence of the king of Dragons) was given to a human family if they gave the dragon their only daughter( blood) who they loved and who the dragon fell in love with. She mated with him because he could change into a man and their children became the first dragonlords with power to control all Dragons. I really got to find that,i think it was a Japanese tale or something.Both his offspring and the offspring of his wife's siblings were dragonlords but her's were stronger in that they could speak to them and it wasn't forced.

I don't know how yet,but i smell the COTF hands in this, Missandei could be one of them looking and learning,and i believe that the Faceless men's skill in putting on another's face is nothing more than the remnants of the COTF skin changing ability that was learnt,the FM just put their spin on it.I'm pretty sure there is a Bravosi,COTF connection.

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-snip-

Oh, and as an afterthought, as you point out, the Targs and Dragons could have toiled together in the caves due to the Targs ability to be heat...resistent? I mean, we know from the KM story that the slaves feet and hands would burn but that it was insufferably hot. Dany's hands were burnt when she went to Drogon (but amazingly, nothing else was), and Jon's hands were burnt when he grabbed the torch to kill the wights but after his incident it is noted that his wounds are "smoking" much like Drogon's wounds were "smoking" when he was hit with the spears/arrows. So we know Targs are not "fire proof" but perhaps they have a tendency to be flame resistent? LOL I wonder if Dany's wounds would "smoke" if she were to get stabbed?

-snip-

This could quiet easily be explained by the temperature difference between the blood and the air. Just like how you can see your breath when it is cold.

On topic:

So, getting back to Missy, if she is the FM, then poor old Martel boy may have (very wild assumption here) actually asked for a gift. Otherwise, what of importance would Quen have told her that she kept for herself. Because I don't remember seeing that she passed on any messages to anybody:

"She had been with the prince night and day, tending to such needs as he could express, giving him water and milk of the poppy when he was strong enough to drink, listening to the few tortured words he gasped out from time to time, reading to him when he fell quiet, sleeping in her chair beside him."

Also, it would seem she got a nice face just added to the FM collection. The face we may be seeing yet again:

"After the girl was gone, the old knight peeled back the coverlet for one last look at Quentyn Martell's face, or what remained of it. So much of the prince's flesh had sloughed away that he could see the skill beneath."

This is a brilliant catch and fits really neatly with the theory!

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First, sorry if it took me longer to reply to you then I thought, the Others took my power supply in the computer I usually use so I had to fiddle around and swap it out for a new one. Plus, long weekend. :)

Yah, I'm wondering about the word on the dragonbinder horn in comparison to the words of the Targaryen house now in relation to this. The horn says "Blood for fire, fire for blood" but the Targaryen words are "fire AND blood". For Targaryens does this imply that they don't need no stinkin' horn? They just take both the fire and the blood and its all theirs, screw whatever magical "exchange" or "price" is meant to normally take place?

The absolutely wonderful, incredible, fascinating Tze had a post regarding Dany and her visit into the HotU and IIRC her post intimated that she should have been paying a price for the magical visions that she received from them, and that she got the sweet end of the deal because she got the visions and then Drogon toasted them, effectively giving her something for nothing. Same with Astapor, she hands them a dragon for payment and then goes "by the way, a dragon is no slave" and takes off with all the slaves kills everyone and again, no payment needed. Another theory being speculated about is that as Drogo is burning on his funeral pier and as MMD is chanting away a spell so she isn't harmed by the fire, Dany isn't harmed and MMD dies.

All these situations lead me to believe Dany is a magic stealer of some sort. She just naturally benefits from what others around her are trying to weave against her or around her. And if the dragon horn is what dragonlords in Old Valyria did to bind dragons to them, was this something the Targaryen line was gifted to set them apart from them at, after, or before the doom? The Targaryen family, 100 years after their exile, could have easily returned on their dragons and had an active part in the doom. I can't think of anything that could have stopped them if they were part of making it happen. Which leads back into the whole theory of Targaryens being a part of the FM, and the FM possibly being the ones who made the doom happen.

Another musing... maybe the words "fire and blood" for their house were meant to remind them of their family's gifts even though they now lived in Westeros, a world seemingly with little or no magic.

I made a lengthy post in another thread on the Dragonhorn and the inscription on it. I too find it very curious that the inscription has such a strong resemblence to the Targaryen words.

But my latest idea is, that it is actually some kind of manual.

"Blood for fire, fire for blood"

-The dragons do not get bound to the one blowing the horn, but the 'owner'. One must claim the horn to own it, according to the red priest on Vic's boat whos name i've just forgotten ;)

I believe the 'Blood for fire' part means, that blood magic is involved to bind the horn and with the horn dragons (fire made flesh), so: Blood (magic) for fire (dragons or the dragonhorn)

The 'fire for blood' part would refer to the horn blower. At some point in the books it is mentioned that the lungs of the guy who blew it where charred (fire). I believe that just means, you have to sacrifice the one who blows the horn to control the dragons can wreck havoc with them (blood).

But it could also just mean, that if the horn is blown near Dany it will just bind the dragons to her, no matter who claimed 'ownership' of the horn before.

I guess we will see ;)

I just reread the prologue for ACOK recently and I had never caught the similarities the 2 stone gargoyles at Dragonstone seem to have with the weirwoods in the north. I'm sure its all been mentioned before so I won't elaborate, but since one is a hellhound (wolf?) and the other is a wyrven (dragon?) then the link between the two houses seems carved into the very structure of the Targaryen ancestral home from the beginning. Very curious. Let me know if you want details.

My thought is that converting weirwood to another use probably isn't as bad as burning it outright, especially since we see the CotF hand Bran his paste to eat before going into the tree in a weirwood bowl itself. Also when Arya enters the HoB&W she seems to think the doors are watching her and has a full on argument with them before saying the magic words.

It is the burning that makes them freak out. My theory on this is that even if the wood is separated from the tree, the spirits that are in the wood are still in them, but burning them disintegrates the home of the spirits and they fly off either into nothingness, or to past that curtain of light that Bran saw in the far far north, and that's probably the cold dark hell Ned Stark thought of. I think that's the home of the others and they are separated from those they love in the second life they had shared with those they loved in the wiernet.

Because the many faced god has many faces, and said to have many ears with which to hear, plus because the doors of the HoB&W are weirwood and IIRC black stone, it again makes me think the weirwoods and how they work are key to the many faced god, and now these stone statues may explain the "other half" of the doors. Cressen doesn't specifically mention the gargoyles are black, but while on the balcony he describes:

So perhaps there is a link to the doors of the HoB&W there. Specifically that the black stone is as "alive" as the weirwood and has some sort of conciousness to it that makes it the wierwood's other half. Perhaps the black stone of the seastone chair/throne at Pyke is the same stone too. If the black stone was the original "throne" of the CotF, and the others/white walkers used to have the "throne" of the weirwood and got kicked out of it by trickery by the CotF, well, if I was an other, I would be pissed too.

The weirwood doors seem to have magical properties, at least the 2 i can remember. Both of them opened when there were certain words spoken and the one under the Nightford seems to be able to distinguish between NW members and the rest of the folk (or atleast the living and the dead)

Maybe Greenseers can see trough stuff made out of weirwood too. Seems like a possibility to me. That way Bran could whisper to Arya, if he recognizes her ;)

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This post is turning out to be a book!

Kidding aside, the evidence is pretty strong that she is one of the FM. Thinking of it, even high born girls haven't got enough knowledge and maturity as this 11 year old slave girl. So, one this is definitely sure, she isn't eleven. Not even near that. Her senses are quite powerful and some other evidence also points to the fact that she is very well one of the FM.

Also, it is pretty clear that the FM would have intended to have one of theirs in the service of the Dragon Queen. Probably to protect, probably as a spy, or probably to kill Dany, But whatever it is, we can surely say she has a pretty huge secret and its not just her age.

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This post is turning out to be a book!

snip...

lol, I know!! :blushing: I know you're joking, but I know I type too much!

So, getting back to Missy, if she is the FM, then poor old Martel boy may have (very wild assumption here) actually asked for a gift. Otherwise, what of importance would Quen have told her that she kept for herself. Because I don't remember seeing that she passed on any messages to anybody:

"She had been with the prince night and day, tending to such needs as he could express, giving him water and milk of the poppy when he was strong enough to drink, listening to the few tortured words he gasped out from time to time, reading to him when he fell quiet, sleeping in her chair beside him."

Also, it would seem she got a nice face just added to the FM collection. The face we may be seeing yet again:

"After the girl was gone, the old knight peeled back the coverlet for one last look at Quentyn Martell's face, or what remained of it. So much of the prince's flesh had sloughed away that he could see the skull beneath."

ETA: Spelling

Totally agree with Huta!!! BRILLIANT! :drool:

I know his face was obviously burnt, but perhaps that doesn't matter as part of the glamour magic. After all it changes the look of things like hair and teeth which aren't part of the face itself. Maybe the face could still show unburnt Quentyn. Perhaps we may see a Jaquen as Quentyn infiltration in the future.

@ Others Take Ya, my shirt is almost done! :laugh:

mwhahahahah I've taken the first member of my undead army! :devil: lol

Seriously, send me a pic I'd love to see it!

I like where some of your points are heading.I, believe it very possible that of all the Dragonlords the Targs didn't need horns to bind Dragons to them.I don't know maybe they did some kind of an ancient ritual or deal with a fire Dragon-seeing as they are elemental creatures- (fire and blood) to bind dragons to them. This thought kind of reminded me of a story i read a long long time ago -i have to look for it- In a nutshell the fire( life essence of the king of Dragons) was given to a human family if they gave the dragon their only daughter( blood) who they loved and who the dragon fell in love with. She mated with him because he could change into a man and their children became the first dragonlords with power to control all Dragons. I really got to find that,i think it was a Japanese tale or something.Both his offspring and the offspring of his wife's siblings were dragonlords but her's were stronger in that they could speak to them and it wasn't forced.

I don't know how yet,but i smell the COTF hands in this, Missandei could be one of them looking and learning,and i believe that the Faceless men's skill in putting on another's face is nothing more than the remnants of the COTF skin changing ability that was learnt,the FM just put their spin on it.I'm pretty sure there is a Bravosi,COTF connection.

Since this train of thought drags the Missandei stuff kind of off topic, I'm working on the OP for another thread that covers a big chunk of what we digressed into: Targ, HoB&W, and CotF related. I'll update this thread with the address to that one when its done. Should be soon, with all the darn quotes it's already another book. :thumbsup:

edit: here's the link: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/84142-dragonstone-gargoyles-weirwoods-counterpart-a-comparison/

I made a lengthy post in another thread on the Dragonhorn and the inscription on it. I too find it very curious that the inscription has such a strong resemblence to the Targaryen words.

But my latest idea is, that it is actually some kind of manual.

"Blood for fire, fire for blood"

-The dragons do not get bound to the one blowing the horn, but the 'owner'. One must claim the horn to own it, according to the red priest on Vic's boat whos name i've just forgotten ;)

I believe the 'Blood for fire' part means, that blood magic is involved to bind the horn and with the horn dragons (fire made flesh), so: Blood (magic) for fire (dragons or the dragonhorn)

The 'fire for blood' part would refer to the horn blower. At some point in the books it is mentioned that the lungs of the guy who blew it where charred (fire). I believe that just means, you have to sacrifice the one who blows the horn to control the dragons can wreck havoc with them (blood).

But it could also just mean, that if the horn is blown near Dany it will just bind the dragons to her, no matter who claimed 'ownership' of the horn before.

I guess we will see ;)

The weirwood doors seem to have magical properties, at least the 2 i can remember. Both of them opened when there were certain words spoken and the one under the Nightford seems to be able to distinguish between NW members and the rest of the folk (or atleast the living and the dead)

Maybe Greenseers can see trough stuff made out of weirwood too. Seems like a possibility to me. That way Bran could whisper to Arya, if he recognizes her ;)

Makes sense to put the manual right on the horn, and I agree totally that it's the most likely explanation for the words. :-)

She definitely thinks the doors are watching her! I love it when Arya is pounding on the doors of the HoB&W yelling "open up you stupid!". She cracks me up! :lmao:

Isn't Izembaro a place?

The way the book reads it could be a place or a person. Many think its a person over a place because the format of the name matches up with the formats of the names of multiple Bravoosi listed in the Appendix. Examples: Quarro Volentin, Red Roggo, Gyloro Dothare, Gyleno Dothare, Cossomo the Conjurer, Tagganaro, Casso. Lost of o's and ro's seem to be the pattern.

Of course we won't know until TWOW, but I went with the assumption that Izembaro was a person because of that. :)

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This could quiet easily be explained by the temperature difference between the blood and the air. Just like how you can see your breath when it is cold.

On topic:

This is a brilliant catch and fits really neatly with the theory!

This is true, however, when I'm out in the cold and see my breath I usually refer to it as steam, not smoke. Smoke and steam are usually two different things. Smoke usually occurs when there is fire, steam usually occurs when warm moisture hits cold air. I just think the fact that his wound was "smoking" much like Drogon's was "smoking" is pretty significant.

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