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The Others Take Ya

Missandei is a Faceless Man/Woman perhaps Izembaro

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nice post The Others Take Ya and thanks for showing me this link

theres enough evidence that messandi is more than she is but her reading of scrolls and her study can be put down to her talents as a scribe, as the unsullied are trained from a young age, messandi would have been studying since she was little as well, that can be possible and her calling herself "this one" could just be a force of habbit, and she corrects herself cause she is no longer a slave and i have always thought her creeping up on barristan is not a big deal.

Long story short there's a possibility that she is an agent of FM

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Nice post.

I believe it is possible but I see a few holes in your theory.

1.) It would be counterproductive to take the sexual parts of faceless men and women, do you know a better time to get info? Also if they can notice every little detail in your face they'd probably be amazing. Also it puts them in the place of Varys where he has to also wear perfume because he pisses on himself.

2.) A lot of the stuff Messendie said that you quoted could have been completely innocent and you kinda read it the way you wanted to. it's too long and I don't have the patience you do to quote everything as examples, but Dany got her her freedom, wanting to stay and take care of her. One example is when she heard Dany in the court room when no one else did, Miseendie was the only one paying attention to her, and would have been right next to her.

Again I like the theory I believe it is definitely credible.

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nice post The Others Take Ya and thanks for showing me this link

Nice post.

Thanks for the compliments and thanks for reading. :)

theres enough evidence that messandi is more than she is but her reading of scrolls and her study can be put down to her talents as a scribe, as the unsullied are trained from a young age, messandi would have been studying since she was little as well, that can be possible and her calling herself "this one" could just be a force of habbit, and she corrects herself cause she is no longer a slave and i have always thought her creeping up on barristan is not a big deal.

It's interesting to me that the sneaking up on Barristan is mostly mentioned as the strongest evidence, when for me I consider the fact she knew dead Quentyn was smiling when he had no lips the strongest evidence. I wonder if there's something I'm missing because of that, for me I consider it the stongest because she would only know that if she's seen corpses with no face on. Dear forum: am I missing something? XD

I believe it is possible but I see a few holes in your theory.

1.) It would be counterproductive to take the sexual parts of faceless men and women, do you know a better time to get info?

I'm not sure I understand the question clearly, are you asking why would they take their reproductive parts because lose the advantages of getting information from a someone while they're *ahem* using them?

My thought is that all FM don't have to do this, but if they wanted to make sure they had access to slaves in the unsullied camp in order to give them the gift when someone asked for it, then those assigned to be undercover in the ranks of that slave camp must be cut. Some trainee FM may have already come to them already cut if they were a slave that desired to kill someone else, since from the kindly man's story we know the 2nd faceless man was told "all a slave has to offer in exchange for killing the other was your life, so the price is that you become one of us now." (paraphrasing)

I think Missandei's story is a parallel to Waif's. The poisons make her look like a little girl, but she would deliberately take the poison/medication that would prevent the onset of puberty or her growth. In this way the FM's comment of "you would loose all the lives you have within you" could make sense, if Arya did that she wouldn't be able to have children.

But Missandei and Waif aren't the only faceless men/woman. They had 11 or 12 meet routinely in Braavos alone, and Jaquen seems to be Westorosi based, so I'm sure if they needed a fellow FM to seduce someone for information for them they would have the option of getting their co-worker who wasn't changed in that way to help.

Because Jaquen was open to recruiting Arya, and also because he had Rorge and Biter under his thumb, I do wonder if they habitually work in pairs in the field. Jaquen did tell Arya the coin would bring her to him again, and if his previous partner had been killed and he was alone, it would make sense that he would have been trying out other people to look for a replacement to work with. Otherwise I think he would have been blowing his own cover a lot in general which doesn't seem wise. :lol:

So I think Jaquen still has his bits. :) lol I'd tell that man anything!!!

Also if they can notice every little detail in your face they'd probably be amazing. Also it puts them in the place of Varys where he has to also wear perfume because he pisses on himself.

Dany does mention in her POV that the unsullied are very attentive to their own cleanliness and hygiene. Maybe there's some hope for poor Theon! :crying:

2.) A lot of the stuff Messendie said that you quoted could have been completely innocent and you kinda read it the way you wanted to. it's too long and I don't have the patience you do to quote everything as examples, but Dany got her her freedom, wanting to stay and take care of her. One example is when she heard Dany in the court room when no one else did, Miseendie was the only one paying attention to her, and would have been right next to her.

That's very true I did read it with an eye that was biased towards not trusting what she said to be innocent. I did it because I wanted to go from a guilty until proven innocent angle in order to rule out the possibility of her being a FM. When I looked at it this way I couldn't find anything that did rule it out, but just a lot of suspicious situations.

Yes, Missandei could have wanted to stay because she trusted Dany to take care of her. Yes, she could have been standing right by Dany even though its not explicitly mentioned by GRRM. Conversely, I found it curious a second mention of Missandei's excellent hearing was in the same chapter though. Was it one of his goals in this chapter to put that foreshadowing in? That chapter is followed by Arya's training to enhance her other senses as the little blind girl about 9 chapters after in the book.

Also I wanted to try and take a look at all her interactions as a whole in order to see the big picture. The use of "this one" without correcting herself in front of Barristan and always correcting herself from "this one" to "I" in front of Dany, as well as seeming to act differently between the two of them (Dany reads her as more childlike with Dany vs harder to read reactions with Barristan) showed up as suspicious behavior to me by doing this.

Long story short there's a possibility that she is an agent of FM

Again I like the theory I believe it is definitely credible.

Yay! I'm not out to convince or disprove anything because only GRRM can do that in TWOW, but I'm glad I can help give people something cool to consider. :)

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I really just think Missandei is a gentle, intelligent and ninja-like empath because she comes from Naath, and weird shit goes on there. She's well educated and perceptive. Naathi are said to worship the 'Lord of Harmony' in the distant continent of Sothoryos. It's natural for a slave girl to speak the way she does in the plot of the books, so I don't read anything into that. She's been indoctrinated and is finding it hard to relearn her individuality. Nothing to do with the FM.

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Missandei is not a FM. She is a slave. The nomenclature comes from the fact that she was taken with boys that were to be unsullied.

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So here's an oft repeated theory that Missandei is a faceless man, but I thought my favorite crackpot theory could use some investigation so we can see if the pieces of the pot fit together. :-) This is a real long post, but as you can tell, I like quotes, and I think I used every mention I could find to make as complete a compilation as possible.

1) The assumption is she's a little girl, but Arya thought the Waif was a little girl too and she was 36. We know that CotF and Naathi (hey, Naathi... Braavosi... hm.) are rumored to share a common ancestry. Perhaps Missandei isn't the age she's saying she is.

Arya and the waif:

I know the KM tells her her appearance is because of poisons, but maybe that's just a half truth and she's actually Naathi as well. At this point Arya isn't good at the lying game yet.

SoS Naathi people as explained to Dany:

golden eyes, wise beyond her years - CotF had golden eyes and look like Children

made music - the Children sing the songs of the earth

the conquered, but would sicken and die - I wonder if Missandei ever explained HOW the soldiers got sickened. Tears of Lys?

to this - to me - slip up! actively corrects herself!

2) Her brother who died in Mereen, perhaps he wasn't her brother per se, but her partner in delivering the gift among the slaves at Astapor. I think he was killed by the harpy, but his role as a slave was either a cover or perhaps she's taken over the role of what used to be a real 11 year old girl who went through hell as a young slave.

ADoD, Dany, after death of M's brother:

Slip up number two with Dany. If it isn't a big deal to say "this one" why is she correcting herself?

Now you can't keep tabs on the queen if she sends you home. Also, with her brother dead you would not think feeling safe with Dany is a good reason for staying. Maybe it was the best excuse she could come up with on short notice, or maybe this was what the FM heard from an 11 year old girl slave who wanted to die.

3) Missandei is one of the few who express their objection of the upcoming marriage to Dany. Perhaps because she knows more then she lets on and its a trap.

ADoD, Missandei talking with Dany before the wedding:

Maybe she forgets she's 11 because she's NOT! And Dany can't see golden eyes is trying to warn you off! Her serious gaze is set to ON beware! lol

4) Barristan, who expounds earlier in his POV's about kingsguard needing to be always on the alert, gets snuck up on by Missandei:

Barristan about how a kingsguard needs to be on their toes:

So he's pretty critical of the pit fighters but...

Barristan being snuck up on:

Selmy, you got owned.

5) He can't read Missandei real feelings well, which, for someone who is supposed to be on top of how people are behaving about their King/Queen, seems remarkable.

Barristan's conversation with Missandei:

First of all there's the "this one" again. This time, with Barristan, she doesn't correct herself, even though in Dany's presence she corrects herself twice. Is she more concerned about putting up an act for Dany then she is for Barristan? Maybe Barristan isn't the only one who realizes he's not made for subterfuge.

Second, Barristan THINKS that she's telling him about the scorpions because she's worried, but if she's a FM probably she's just disseminating information to those that need to know again, that and trying to get information from him. She doesn't care about being reassured. And possibly, doesn't care about putting up an act in front of him as much as she does Dany.

6) People see her looking scrolls, even when she has absolutely nothing to do. Why is she looking through all that stuff? No one asks her why:

ADoD: Dany sees Missandei looking at scrolls after coming back from helping plague victims:

ADoD: Missandei looking at scrolls while Dany's away:

Also by this point, she has no duties at all, Dany's gone. The amount of items she's going over has turned into piles now that she has time and no one to ask any questions about it.

Foreshadowing!?! XD

7) Missandei seems to hear more then most people, and seems to be trying to tell Dany in so many words how desperate the slaves are without giving away she's a spy:

DOES her Grace know best? REALLY??? Naaaaaahhhh Dany's dumb as a post about it. Dream smeam. It did not occur to her that Missandei might have left the pyramid and gone to check out what was happening closer to the wall.

Maybe Missandei even gave the gift. And even if she didn't, we know about how Arya's being trained to use all her senses. I think Dany could die if she doesn't heed the warnings about how the slaves are suffering.

This whole section is creepy. It reminds me of what happened in the gas chambers of Auchwitz.

Another hint about how sensitive her hearing is from the same chapter:

8) Finally, I think the very first conversation with Dany may have held a clue, though it could be easily said that it is probably a common phrase.

SoS:

So taking this cracked pot out to its pulverized end, my thought is that she is Izembaro, the FM that the KM is sending Arya to. She had her previous partner (or partners?) killed and she's about to pick up a new apprentice. As a Braavosi based organization, a culture that doesn't even joke around when it comes to dragons, it seems only natural they would keep tabs on them and I would wonder why they wouldn't have a Faceless Man on the ground with Dany by now. On top of that, these dragons and dragon ruler don't have the same attitude towards slavery that the KM told Arya the Valyrians did, but if Dany starts allying herself with the slavers instead of actively trying to find a way to stop it, they would be in place to kill her right away and kill her dragons once they figure out how to do it.

The KM also said there aren't many female FM, it makes sense that he would send her to apprentice with one of the few female FM they have. I just can't see how Jaquen would be able to give Arya "the talk" once she "flowered". lol ick. No. Just no.

Just as supporting info, I also came across this, Grey Worm's description of the nameless goddess. Makes me wonder if this is their version of the Many Faced God.

This also reminds me of when the KM asks Arya if she is sure she wants to be one of them because of the refrence to private parts:

So does this mean FM go as far as becoming unsullied in order to get the job done? Sure sounds like it.

So could the Goddess that Grey Worm cannot name to Dany be the Unsullied's version of the Many Faced God? And could Missandei be one of the Angels of death from the HoB&W that walks alongside them to take them away when their suffering is too great? Do you think this theory warrants a crackpot rating of 1 (just a hairline crack) or 10 (this pot is a humpty dumpty role model) and why?

edit: clarification

LATE EDIT: These are other pieces of text I found to support this theory as the thread progressed which are posted farther down the thread. I'm adding them to the OP so that everything is in one place in case you don't want to read everything to see it.

9) Missandei helps Dany ask all the right questions in her brand new court:

from ASoS:

Gee, the 11 year old was sure up on the gossip of who was slaughtering who and who owned who wasn't she? And the envoy sure didn't like Missandei asking that question. lol I'll say it again, the best Master of Whisperers is the one you don't even know you have!

10) Missandei helps Quentyn into death, and makes an interesting observation:

Well this passage is interesting. Now not only is the 11 year old a genius scribe she's:

  • Taking the place of a maester on a death bed, properly administering a potion of milk of the poppy.
  • Not scared of horrific injuries.
  • Strong enough to sit with someone dying and give them comfort in their last moments.
  • Able to notice details about dead bodies Barristan can't, even though he's been killing for years and she's supposed to be a little girl. Like that the guy is smiling with no lips. Now what type of people would know what the musculature of face looks like when its smiling when there are no lips left? Maybe people who cut off faces so they can use them later! trolololol

If she isn't an "angel of death" for the faceless men, personally, I'll be really surprised!!! XD

Before I begin talking about this, I must say, this is the second most elaborated and well written theories I have come across. I really am impressed. Let's begin.

1. First point is why would the Faceless Men use a little girl (unless she is like the waif) to do a job of this importance? Also, how would they know Dany would be given this slave as a gift? I am going to answer my own question by suggesting she might have been sent to be a slave to keep tabs on Astapor, and then changed roles to keep an eye on the dragons.

2. I believe Missandei refers to herself as "this one" as she was a slave, and her owner did not permit any names for the Unsullied, so she might not have been allowed to have a name. As for being smarter than her years, she would have to know how to influence people as she essentially was a saleswomen, and a slave, so she would have had to have grown up fast.

3. Missandei's mourning of her brother does seem genuine, and with Faceless Men, it doesn't seem like they would be sentimental.

4. Refer to my point of Missandei having to know people's feelings being a slave and saleswoman.

5. Barristan is essentially day dreaming, so it stands to some reason a small, quiet, light weight girl could sneak up to him close enough to hear him.

6. I think this is genuine concern for Dany as Missandei does know her, and might have come to realize Dany is the best hope for eradicating the slave trade in the entire world.

7. There is nothing for Missandei to do, so she would read more scrolls if Dany has no need of her, especially if she was bored.

8. I truly do not know how to refute this just because of how crazy it is. (not you, the book)

9. This phrase shows how open she was to the posibility she might die.

10. Missandei would likely know a lot of gossip from slaves about everyone, or hear her masters talking about it, and know what questions to ask due to her trying to sell people.

11. This is a good point, but I believe it is just her reassuring Barristan. Also, at Astapor, she would have seen many brutal injuries and such with other slaves.

While this is possible, the critic in me just doesn't see it. Although this would be the best way to get Arya to Westeros to kick some ass.

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Not sure if anyone has observed, but Miss. in the show does NOT look like a pre-pubescent 11 year old girl. This can mean everything, or nothing. Non book readers would have no reason to think anything of it, but for those of us who have read the books and realize that she's only supposed to be 11 and looks to be atleast 15/16...I think that's important. I also feel it supports the FM theory.

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The Others Take Ya:

Thank you.

Up till now, I'd found the Essos chapters pretty trying when reading (after book 3), so skimmed over a lot of it (what can I say...I love direwolves more than dragons!).

Your enthusiasm, grace under fire, and willingness to scour through all those pages? Admirable, remarkable and inspiring. For this thread alone, I'm now determined to sift through all the pages I'd previously thought of as 'filler'. Again, thank you for breathing life into what I'd personally thought of as 'beating a dead horse'.

The idea of the Targaryens bonding with their dragons and eventually running off to Dragonstone reminded me of Haggon's words to Varamyr, about the 'skinchangers' being hunted down and butchered (like pigs). Perhaps the Targaryens ( as well as being aware of the Doom) were outsiders for being 'bonded' with their dragons, and had the sense to 'get out of Dodge'. Hmmm.

I like the idea of Missandei being a FM. It makes sense, with all the little observations about her person coming together in your OP. I found her to be the most confusing of all the characters.

Anyways, great post, and I'll be checking back to see how it goes. :cheers:

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i believe there are faceless men near dany, i don think missandei is one of them. the question is, do we "know" them already ?.

and i tanke it for granted that at least 1 FM is watching dany, too important to left unchecked (now she is out of pocket in the middle of nowhere)

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The Others Take ya!

Excellent well thought out post about Missandre and I am on board for her character to be a FM. The first time I read her character I found myself wondering if she was waif or even Arya. Subtle clues but I think you have written a well researched article that she is in fact a FM.

The first time I read ADWD I read it for action and plot movement. I have now re-read the series a few times and I actually enjoy book four and five very much. So much foreshadowing contained in both that pop up during re-reads. I have grown to love Tyrion's travel down the River and Dany's time in Meereen and the new characters. I actually think the Yunkai masters and the sellsword companies are parallel characters to Westeros characters in the north at WF and the Wall. Who knows perhaps if we re-read the battle of Astapor we might gain clues about what will happen at Winterfell and the Wall.

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i believe there are faceless men near dany, i don think missandei is one of them. the question is, do we "know" them already ?.

and i tanke it for granted that at least 1 FM is watching dany, too important to left unchecked (now she is out of pocket in the middle of nowhere)

I agree and if we think who is the only Bravoosi in her camp? I think Dario is a faceless man,He could even be Jaquen.

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I agree and if we think who is the only Bravoosi in her camp? I think Dario is a faceless man,He could even be Jaquen.

I'm pretty sure Jaqen is currently at the Citadel in Oldtown wearing Pate's face (prologue/epilogue of A Feast for Crows).

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...

It's interesting to me that the sneaking up on Barristan is mostly mentioned as the strongest evidence, when for me I consider the fact she knew dead Quentyn was smiling when he had no lips the strongest evidence. I wonder if there's something I'm missing because of that, for me I consider it the stongest because she would only know that if she's seen corpses with no face on. Dear forum: am I missing something? XD

...

Yes indeed. I believe this harkens back to Arya's accounts of faces in the Sanctum (aDwD, The Ugly Little Girl):

They hung upon the walls, before her and behind her, high and low, everywhere she looked, everywhere she turned. She saw old faces and young faces, pale faces and dark faces, smooth faces and wrinkled faces, freckled faces and scarred faces, handsome faces and homely faces, men and women, boys and girls, even babies, smiling faces, frowning faces, faces full of greed and rage and lust, bald faces and faces bristling with hair.

Notice how the emotions are preserved within the faces after they are collected by the FM. A very good indicator of how the FM can relate to their new personalities. And if we factor in the account of Quentyn talking to Missandei, and possibly asking for a gift, his "smile" would be indicative of a relief.

Also, Missandei would be the last one to see the actual face before taking it, so her account of Quentyn's emotions is a rather strong hint towards involvement with the FM.

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Wow, this thread blew up again when I wasn't looking! :D

Before I begin talking about this, I must say, this is the second most elaborated and well written theories I have come across. I really am impressed. Let's begin.

Wow. High praise! Thank you so much! :) Just out of curiosity, what do you consider the number one theory? I'd love to read it. :D

1. First point is why would the Faceless Men use a little girl (unless she is like the waif) to do a job of this importance? Also, how would they know Dany would be given this slave as a gift? I am going to answer my own question by suggesting she might have been sent to be a slave to keep tabs on Astapor, and then changed roles to keep an eye on the dragons.

I actually just recently came across a small passage in AFFC that may indicate a likely reason for having a faceless man girl child among the soldiers. What an opportune time for you to ask this question! :D

AFFC Arya II:

Thirty different gods stood along the walls, surrounded by their little lights. The Weeping Woman was the favorite of old women, Arya saw; rich men preferred the Lion of Night, poor men the Hooded Wayfarer. Soldiers lit candles to Bakkalon, the Pale Child, sailors to the MoonPale Maiden and the Merling King. The Stranger had his shrine as well, though hardly anyone ever came to him.

We hear in ADWD when (IIRC) Grey Worm tells Dany that the name of their God is only known to those who burn their manhoods upon their altar so we don't know this for sure. However if the Unsullied of Astapor's representation of the many faced God is a child then having an actual child be their agent or angel of death may be a more trusted envoy for those people praying for death because she actually matches the representation they pray to and she would be who they expect to get. If the faceless men still care about giving slaves the gift as they did in the beginning then they would need to put their agents where the slaves are, as they obviously don't have the ability to go to Braavos to get the gift.

2. I believe Missandei refers to herself as "this one" as she was a slave, and her owner did not permit any names for the Unsullied, so she might not have been allowed to have a name. As for being smarter than her years, she would have to know how to influence people as she essentially was a saleswomen, and a slave, so she would have had to have grown up fast.

All very true, and it could well be nothing, however I concluded it meant something not just because of the use of the word, but because she seems to care about correcting herself in front of Dany but not Barristan. With Barristan she's always "this one" with no hesitation. So I consider the words themselves as less of a clue then the differences of her behavior in how she says them between the two POVs. I think she's more conscious of playing a part in front of the more intelligent Dany, while even Barristan says of himself in his own chapters he doesn't have a mind for intrigue.

I think perceptive Missandei can see that too so she doesn't play her "role" as much and the words are just part of that "role".

3. Missandei's mourning of her brother does seem genuine, and with Faceless Men, it doesn't seem like they would be sentimental.

It may seem genuine, but my thought was as an assassin she is well trained in how to act, and Arya's "rule your face" lessons are simply step 1. There was a very good post up thread about Arya's next step in her training was to train with the actors at the Blue Lantern, and that Izembaro is her next teacher. I hope she eventually goes to kick butt with Dany and her dragons but that would be a very interesting and logical next stop along the way in her training. It would help her learn how to slip in and act in different roles comfortably.

4. Refer to my point of Missandei having to know people's feelings being a slave and saleswoman.

5. Barristan is essentially day dreaming, so it stands to some reason a small, quiet, light weight girl could sneak up to him close enough to hear him.

6. I think this is genuine concern for Dany as Missandei does know her, and might have come to realize Dany is the best hope for eradicating the slave trade in the entire world.

7. There is nothing for Missandei to do, so she would read more scrolls if Dany has no need of her, especially if she was bored.

8. I truly do not know how to refute this just because of how crazy it is. (not you, the book)

9. This phrase shows how open she was to the posibility she might die.

10. Missandei would likely know a lot of gossip from slaves about everyone, or hear her masters talking about it, and know what questions to ask due to her trying to sell people.

11. This is a good point, but I believe it is just her reassuring Barristan. Also, at Astapor, she would have seen many brutal injuries and such with other slaves.

While this is possible, the critic in me just doesn't see it. Although this would be the best way to get Arya to Westeros to kick some ass.

4-6: Yes all of these could be very innocent and not mean anything. This is part of why I wanted to analyze the scope of all her behaviors in order to see how it looked in its entirety. This is part of the fuzzy judgment call stuff to me. Its all circumstantial evidence.

7: scrolls: I've lately wondered why Missandei hasn't asked for a research assignment from Dany. She's obviously ok with reading up on things, while it could be entirely innocent and Missandei is reading for pleasure I wonder why she hasn't asked Dany if there are subjects she should focus on to help her queen. Information on the economy of Meereen before Old Valyria turned them into slavers perhaps would likely be useful to Dany and I would think Missandei must know she would especially be of use to Dany in this way.

Of course if Missandei already has stuff to look for that she won't tell Dany about, of course she won't suggest this to Dany. That would detract from her primary goal of gathering the information SHE wants to gather. It just another possibility as to why the reading is so suspicious.

8. hahaha Thanks for clarifying as to whether I was crazy or the book is. Want to hear about another crazy thing about that passage? Missandei tells Dany she heard the Astapori scratching at the walls trying to get in. Now, she could either hear Astapori accents from far far away as well as the scratching, or it indeed shows that Missandei did visit the wall because how else would she know what city the people scratching were from. She must have heard a dialect or seen an Astapori to know it was Astapori scratching at the walls and not Yunkai or whatever.

9-10: same reasoning as 4-6

11: I agree there is some reassuring of Barristan going on, I think she sees him as an honorable ally. I just can't get over the feeling that GRRM is baiting us a little when he has Barristan think to himself "How do you know? He has no lips." and leaves it an unanswered question. Like its a big red flag for the reader that he wants them to think about.

Reading other posts in the meantime, it made me wonder if this was one of the big reasons he could have had Quentyn in the story for, because people keep asking: "Why was he there in the first place, the dragons could have been set free some other way?"

I think there are 3 possible reasons I can see:

- to give a big clue as to who Missandei is

- to fulfil the prophesy of "when the sun (Quentyn=sun=dorne sigil) rises in the east and sets in the West" somehow (though I'm not clear on how yet if the west is westeros)

- to let out the dragons, because it was a cover reason for the first two

Whether you "see it" or not, I hope you at least had fun reading about the theory. :cheers:

Not sure if anyone has observed, but Miss. in the show does NOT look like a pre-pubescent 11 year old girl. This can mean everything, or nothing. Non book readers would have no reason to think anything of it, but for those of us who have read the books and realize that she's only supposed to be 11 and looks to be atleast 15/16...I think that's important. I also feel it supports the FM theory.

I agree that it supports the theory too because they have waited until Maisy Williams was a lot older to start introducing the darker aspects of her character. If Missandei's character had stayed a child actor I think they would have not had the real-world ability to introduce a possible darker storyline for her that included murder. What 10 year old could play that!

Of course it could be for other adult content reasons, or just so that they don't have to worry about another kid aging too so there's also those possible reasons.

This also opens up another thing we may be able to look for in the show as a clue, because if Missandei was a child because the soldiers expected the pale child as their god of death, then if they show the soldiers praying to an adult women in the show to match Missandei's new age I think it could be another clue. This seems like a really small detail though, probably won't make it into the show.

The Others Take Ya:

Thank you.

Up till now, I'd found the Essos chapters pretty trying when reading (after book 3), so skimmed over a lot of it (what can I say...I love direwolves more than dragons!).

Your enthusiasm, grace under fire, and willingness to scour through all those pages? Admirable, remarkable and inspiring. For this thread alone, I'm now determined to sift through all the pages I'd previously thought of as 'filler'. Again, thank you for breathing life into what I'd personally thought of as 'beating a dead horse'.

Aw yay!!! I'm so glad! In case you want more possible intrigue to consider on these chapters before your reread I just started another thread that builds on what was in this one.

And now that a fellow canadian is posting - you've inspired me to listen to some tragically hip eh. XD

And thanks for your comment about "grace under fire" too. There are times when posters seem forget rule number 1 of forums and they attack the poster and not the post (common problem in all forums). Saying things like "you don't read the books as well as I do" and their comments sometimes get personal and belittling rather then just accept people have different points of view. My personal take on it is that the answer isn't to "flame back", ever, because it just seems like answering intellectual bullying with more bullying so I'd rather just point out what I think needs improvement. I'm old enough to realize it isn't about me, but I hope other younger readers can see comments like that for what it is and just point out the bad behavior and not take a belittling comment personally. That way we can all have a good time speculating and reading happier posts. :)

[/off soapbox]

The idea of the Targaryens bonding with their dragons and eventually running off to Dragonstone reminded me of Haggon's words to Varamyr, about the 'skinchangers' being hunted down and butchered (like pigs). Perhaps the Targaryens ( as well as being aware of the Doom) were outsiders for being 'bonded' with their dragons, and had the sense to 'get out of Dodge'. Hmmm.

I like the idea of Missandei being a FM. It makes sense, with all the little observations about her person coming together in your OP. I found her to be the most confusing of all the characters.

Anyways, great post, and I'll be checking back to see how it goes. :cheers:

I agree with there is a likely link here, especially is all that fuzziness on the wiki about the first Targaryen on Dragonstone being called "Aenar the exile". Plus I think the book Sam was reading called IIRC Targaryens from exile to apothesis from Maester Aemon's books is really good evidence that the Targaryens were in fact run out of Valyria.

The idea that they may have been run out because of a bond they had with their dragons that they either naturally had or were gifted with by the CotF is a really really interesting possibility. Doom and Braavos' reveal were both at -100, exile to Dragonstone happened at -200, and before at -300 we had the strange Hardhome mystery where its speculated it was a practice run for the doom in caves North of the wall where the CotF live? Why wouldn't they practice on humans. To me it looks like the CotF recruited the still secret Braavosi founded in -500 to be agents, we know they were hiding from Old Valyria's dragons.

Hmmm indeed!!! More and more links seem to point towards a Targaryen CotF alliance, with a possibility of the FM being an offshoot of the CotF.

Its such a delicious mystery.

The Others Take ya!

Excellent well thought out post about Missandre and I am on board for her character to be a FM. The first time I read her character I found myself wondering if she was waif or even Arya. Subtle clues but I think you have written a well researched article that she is in fact a FM.

The first time I read ADWD I read it for action and plot movement. I have now re-read the series a few times and I actually enjoy book four and five very much. So much foreshadowing contained in both that pop up during re-reads. I have grown to love Tyrion's travel down the River and Dany's time in Meereen and the new characters. I actually think the Yunkai masters and the sellsword companies are parallel characters to Westeros characters in the north at WF and the Wall. Who knows perhaps if we re-read the battle of Astapor we might gain clues about what will happen at Winterfell and the Wall.

Cool thought! I too have grown to love book four and five very much when it comes to rereads. The Arya chapters are my favorite but the Tyrion chapters have always been a close second. :D

Interesting thought re: the parallel characters, I'll look out for that on my next reread.

Yes indeed. I believe this harkens back to Arya's accounts of faces in the Sanctum (aDwD, The Ugly Little Girl):

They hung upon the walls, before her and behind her, high and low, everywhere she looked, everywhere she turned. She saw old faces and young faces, pale faces and dark faces, smooth faces and wrinkled faces, freckled faces and scarred faces, handsome faces and homely faces, men and women, boys and girls, even babies, smiling faces, frowning faces, faces full of greed and rage and lust, bald faces and faces bristling with hair.

Notice how the emotions are preserved within the faces after they are collected by the FM. A very good indicator of how the FM can relate to their new personalities. And if we factor in the account of Quentyn talking to Missandei, and possibly asking for a gift, his "smile" would be indicative of a relief.

Also, Missandei would be the last one to see the actual face before taking it, so her account of Quentyn's emotions is a rather strong hint towards involvement with the FM.

Originally I thought that it was only a real world precedent that faces tended to keep their last looks engrained on them via rigor mortis when they died. Like murder victims or death masks. But now I see that GRRM has established the same trait into the books too. Great quote Brut! :)

edit: I missed a very important question mark in a quote. "how do you know he has no lips?" vs "how do you know? He has no lips."

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I'm sold. Great new theory, well expounded. The clincher is the way she snuck up on Sir Barristan - it's way too obvious when compared to his earlier ruminations about how well trained he was in making sure exactly that NEVER happened.

Can we add the fact Missendei knows TWELVE languages expertly to the growing evidence she is not only older than she purports to be but also significantly better educated. Are to understand that Ghisacri slave master bought her already like that in the first place?? I mean, woah, so how old was she when he bought her? And she was a slave huh? As in, from not a particularly privileged background? What is her background?

And also, Sir Endrew Tarth said at the start of the thread 'the FM would need to be able to see into the future' but not really because we know the FM put sleepers all over the place just for good measure (kind of a 36 chambers thing going on there huh?) and it may well be that she just got lucky running into Dany (or that the Stranger moved his hand)

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Others Take ya. Great thread with excellent research & great use of Quotes to back it up, I love a good theory to pass the time while we wait for GRRM to get his Butt into Gear and write.

My opinion (For what its worth):

Seems like there are 2 things going one here

1 - Is there a plausible argument that the FM are interested in Dany & the Dragons?

2 - Is there more to Missandei than meets the eye.

Afraid I have to disagree with the conclusion you have reached that they are linked and therfore Missandei is an FM.

The evidence that Missandei is an FM seems flimsy and easily accounted for by more mundane explanations.

1 - She refers to herself as this one & corrects herself - Thats simply because Dany Asks her too. Nothing to see here.

2 - She reads including when there is nothing to do. Shes 11 & bored - what do you do when you are bored? What did you do when you were 11 & bored? What would you have done if you were 11 & bored and it was too dangerous to walk the streets & there were no computer games?

3 - She's stealthy . Possibly something in this, or maybe her slave role has involved being ever present but blending into the background.

In addition to the above there seems a lot of challenges about how she got into Danys inner circle from Astapor. I know a potential line of though has been developed that an FM Killed & replaced the real Missandei but it feels tricky and would need to deal with issues such as seamlessly dropping into speech & behaviour patterns that wouldnt arouse suspicion of either Dany or her brother and simply logistical issues like killing Missandei & disposing of the body whilst travelling through the wastelands between the salver citys.

Nah - not for me. ( but then I believe Euron = Pyatt Pree so not sure my endorsement is too much to worry about !)

The above said - i'm very taken with a proactive FM organisation planting a spy in the camp theory. I've just started AFFC on a Re-read and will be paying special attention.

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An awesome topic might I say! Have just joined the forums and hadn't thought about this whole Missandei as a FM and Faceless men interested in Dany theory at all. This topic opened my eyes and all the different theories within got my head spinning, but nontheless i have a couple of analysis of my own:

1. The majority of posters in this topic do think that Missandei has something more to her than meets the eye, but the question seems to be divided to two parts: Is she a FM or a CotF?

As a CotF why would she be a scribe for a slavemaster? She could possibly hide her CotF traits such as fewer fingers and splinted eyes with some form of magic. As a CotF she does live for hundreds of years so the role of a slavers scribe could give her insight concerning the world and all of its aspects, even the worst ones such as slavery. So it is plausible she could be a CotF, but if I was one and could use magic to transform my appearance, I would just do that and go experience life somewhere else.

If she was a FM she could look like an 11 -year old girl due to the fact that she has drunk poisons to keep her appearance like it was when she was infact 11 years old just like the waif had done. Or she could use glamour or bloodmagic to transform herself to look like an 11 year old just like a CotF. She could have been assigned by the FM masters to the task of bringing the gift for the slaves of Astapor and had been in the city by happenstance when Dany came there or she could have taken the role of Missandei later on when Missandei was still the original and close to Daenerys. The two things that make the infiltration of Missandei to Danys inner cirlce difficult are that firstly if the FM was already Missandei when Dany came to Astapor she couldn't have know that Dany would want her as a gift in the deal for the Unsullied so it would have been pure luck that she got close to her. And if the FM became Missandei later on by using the orginial Missandeis face Dany could have noticed the difference in the way she acted or the things she had told before that didn't match what she was telling after the FM had taken Missandeis place.

The only option if Missandei is a FM is in my opinion that she had been in place as Missandei for a longer period before Dany came to Astapor and because of that it was extremely unlikely that she would get close to Dany because she couldn't have know Dany would take her. Unless the FM can see the future in the flames. I would love for Missandei to be a FM but the theory has some holes such as the one i mentioned that i can't get my head around. Can someone please prove my analysis wrong so i can believe once again? :D

2. I like the topics offspring of FM and the Targaryens having a pact of somesorts and that the FM want to end slavery once and for all. They just haven't had the power to do it before because they are only a few servants of the Many-Faced god and don't have the necessary resources to do it themselves due to the whole continent of Essos being founded on slavery not taking into account few places were its forbidden. The theory of Targaryens being descendants of slaves seems interesting because then they could have ties to the founding of the FM and their abilities to bond with dragons that had been enslaved aswell. Based on the theory of Targaryens being descendants of slaves and possibly a part of the foundation of the FM and the Doom of Valyria the FM would be supporting Dany on her quest to abolish slavery.

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i think the FM may agree with the sentiment behind dany's crusade of slaver-burnin'-people-savin'-goodness but her fire and blood approach is very chaotic and creates too much collateral damage and i don't think the FM would approve.

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OK, so not sure if this particular quote has been used yet, I try to pay as much attention as I can to this thread but sometimes I still forget what has/hasn't been said. Anyway, I would say that I found something that points to the fact that the Dragonlords were absolutely involved in slavery and were even the ones leading the slavery, and thus they are the ones the doom was aimed at etc etc which brings us back around to this Miss is a FM theory.

“The Nine Free Cities are the daughters of valyria that was,” the kindly man taught her, “but Braavos is the bastard child who ran away from home. We are a mongrel folk, the sons of slaves and whores and thieves. Our forebears came from half a hundred lands to this place of refuge, to escape the dragonlords who had enslaved them. Half a hundred gods came with them, but there is one god all of them shard in common.”

“Him of Many Faces.”

“And many names,”the kindly man had said. “In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of the Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of the Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him...else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”

So the Dragonlords were definitely slavers, and I don't think the Targs were the only Dragonlords. I think this once again reflects upon the fact that somehow the Targs formed a bond with their dragons whereas others needed to bind their dragons. Now if you knew that someone was able to do something with great ease, whereas you had to struggle or even seek out sorcery (such as a dragon binding horn) to make the same thing happen, wouldn't you be jealous? If you were a Dragonlord who had to seek out other methods to bind your dragon, where it came naturally to one family, wouldn't you be a little ticked? Because even with your binding you're still only receiving a cheap imitation of what forms naturally for that other family. What if your family was the only family who naturally bonded with their dragons? Do you think that might gain anomosity and hatred from those who have to use other methods? I think it would. I would think others might even seek to wipe you and your line out, just out of jealousy and spite. Would you try to enslave that family? Or to take their dragons?

We know from the KM that the Dragonlords were slavers, and I don't find it a far stretch to think that they were also using their dragons to their personal benefit (ie slaves) as opposed to actually bonding with them. Dany loves her dragons, she loves them, they are her world, they are what she holds most dear, what if all the Targs were that way with their dragons as opposed to other dragonlords saw them as something to just be owned or used to their own benefit?

The other paragraph with the KM asking Arya if she knows of any of mankind that can live forever....well, I can think of someone...Wights/Others. The only way they die is dragon glass (or I bet dragon fire) and I think the KM probably knows this. Which would lead back to another conspiracy theory that is in another thread regarding the FM, the Citadel and magic.

Also, in this same chapter Arya is telling the KM about one of the courtesans having dragon blood, her name is Black Pearl. “Cat told the kindly man about the Black Pearl too. “Her true name is Bellegere Otherys,” she informed him..... “It is,” the priest said softly. “Her mother was Bellonara, but the first Black Pearl was a Bellegere as well.” Now I know this is just one of the three things that Cat learned for the KM and was telling him, but does anyone think it may have more significance? She's rumored to have dragon blood (which could mean everything or nothing) , but I guess what stood out to me was her last name, “Otherys” , I have no idea why, I guess because it sounds like “Others” lol and I have no idea where I would go with that. That's the end of my crackpotiness.

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