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The Others Take Ya

Missandei is a Faceless Man/Woman perhaps Izembaro

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Can we add the fact Missendei knows TWELVE languages expertly to the growing evidence she is not only older than she purports to be but also significantly better educated. Are to understand that Ghisacri slave master bought her already like that in the first place?? I mean, woah, so how old was she when he bought her? And she was a slave huh? As in, from not a particularly privileged background? What is her background?

Yes it's quite interesting that Missandei is only trained as a scribe BECAUSE she was found to have a gift for languages. How unlikely is it that an enslaved girl that lives on an island who is old enough to remember living on the island by the time she is kidnapped have time to learn and be totally proficient at 12 languages? If she's 10 by the time Dany gets her that's full proficiency at 12 languages in 5 years, since it is highly unlikely she had opportunity to learn them all before the age of 5 on an isolated island. And in those 5 years she was enslaved so her opportunities to learn would probably have been limited.

Others Take ya. Great thread with excellent research & great use of Quotes to back it up, I love a good theory to pass the time while we wait for GRRM to get his Butt into Gear and write.

My opinion (For what its worth):

Seems like there are 2 things going one here

1 - Is there a plausible argument that the FM are interested in Dany & the Dragons?

In this case your opinion worth my reply! :cheers:

see this link (just added FAQ links to the OP lol):

Is there a plausible argument that the FM are interested in Dany & the Dragons? Are they hostile, supportive or ambivalent to her? (answered in 1st and 2nd questions)

2 - Is there more to Missandei than meets the eye.

Afraid I have to disagree with the conclusion you have reached that they are linked and therfore Missandei is an FM.

The evidence that Missandei is an FM seems flimsy and easily accounted for by more mundane explanations.

1 - She refers to herself as this one & corrects herself - Thats simply because Dany Asks her too. Nothing to see here.

2 - She reads including when there is nothing to do. Shes 11 & bored - what do you do when you are bored? What did you do when you were 11 & bored? What would you have done if you were 11 & bored and it was too dangerous to walk the streets & there were no computer games?

3 - She's stealthy . Possibly something in this, or maybe her slave role has involved being ever present but blending into the background.

Correcting herself when she uses "this one", reading a lot, and being stealthy enough to surprise Barristan seems like weak evidence when it could be perfectly innocent behavior from a child genius from an island with naturally stealthy people. How do you justify this? (read 4th, 5th and 6th blurbs - starts at box with "2. I believe Missandei...")

In addition to the above there seems a lot of challenges about how she got into Danys inner circle from Astapor. I know a potential line of though has been developed that an FM Killed & replaced the real Missandei but it feels tricky and would need to deal with issues such as seamlessly dropping into speech & behaviour patterns that wouldnt arouse suspicion of either Dany or her brother and simply logistical issues like killing Missandei & disposing of the body whilst travelling through the wastelands between the salver citys.

Here's the option I personally think is most likely, though it is my personal speculation, and don't really have any text evidence:

How did Missandei know Dany was going to come to Astapor and that she would have to go there to infiltrate herself with Dany and her people? She couldn't have know that Dany would want her as a gift in the deal for the Unsullied. (read the 6th and the 9th responses)

On top of this there is the reference to Bakkalon, the pale child, as potentially being who the soldiers of Astapor pray to for death since we see soldiers praying to her in the HoB&W. Grey Worm doesn't want to say her name to Dany to confirm it, but Missandei may be the FM plant because she may look like who they pray to when the want death in stature, and when she plays her role as Bakkalon it may be another face she has. (just edited the OP to add this info)

Nah - not for me. ( but then I believe Euron = Pyatt Pree so not sure my endorsement is too much to worry about !)

The above said - i'm very taken with a proactive FM organisation planting a spy in the camp theory. I've just started AFFC on a Re-read and will be paying special attention.

lol No worries! Enjoy your AFFC reread!

OK, so not sure if this particular quote has been used yet, I try to pay as much attention as I can to this thread but sometimes I still forget what has/hasn't been said. Anyway, I would say that I found something that points to the fact that the Dragonlords were absolutely involved in slavery and were even the ones leading the slavery, and thus they are the ones the doom was aimed at etc etc which brings us back around to this Miss is a FM theory.

“The Nine Free Cities are the daughters of valyria that was,” the kindly man taught her, “but Braavos is the bastard child who ran away from home. We are a mongrel folk, the sons of slaves and whores and thieves. Our forebears came from half a hundred lands to this place of refuge, to escape the dragonlords who had enslaved them. Half a hundred gods came with them, but there is one god all of them shard in common.”

“Him of Many Faces.”

“And many names,”the kindly man had said. “In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of the Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of the Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him...else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”

So the Dragonlords were definitely slavers, and I don't think the Targs were the only Dragonlords. I think this once again reflects upon the fact that somehow the Targs formed a bond with their dragons whereas others needed to bind their dragons. Now if you knew that someone was able to do something with great ease, whereas you had to struggle or even seek out sorcery (such as a dragon binding horn) to make the same thing happen, wouldn't you be jealous? If you were a Dragonlord who had to seek out other methods to bind your dragon, where it came naturally to one family, wouldn't you be a little ticked? Because even with your binding you're still only receiving a cheap imitation of what forms naturally for that other family. What if your family was the only family who naturally bonded with their dragons? Do you think that might gain anomosity and hatred from those who have to use other methods? I think it would. I would think others might even seek to wipe you and your line out, just out of jealousy and spite. Would you try to enslave that family? Or to take their dragons?

This would make the fact that they were exiled out to Dragonstone make sense, but what is strange is why they didn't try to bind them all and exterminate them instead of just getting rid of them. Did they really think that this alternate way to working with the dragons wasn't that dangerous? They were just a few exiled slaves that couldn't be controlled perhaps? Let Westeros deal with them because they had enough dragons to fight them off? I would think that killing them would have been the preffered method of getting rid of them since they were a bunch of slavers and their morals are obviously suspect.

I wonder if this suggests Dragonbinder won't bind Dany and Drogon? (Not sure about Rheagal and Viserion) Since if the slavers HAD TO exile them and they would have MOST LIKELY tried to enslave and kill them. Something must not have worked... hmmm...

We know from the KM that the Dragonlords were slavers, and I don't find it a far stretch to think that they were also using their dragons to their personal benefit (ie slaves) as opposed to actually bonding with them. Dany loves her dragons, she loves them, they are her world, they are what she holds most dear, what if all the Targs were that way with their dragons as opposed to other dragonlords saw them as something to just be owned or used to their own benefit?

The other paragraph with the KM asking Arya if she knows of any of mankind that can live forever....well, I can think of someone...Wights/Others. The only way they die is dragon glass (or I bet dragon fire) and I think the KM probably knows this. Which would lead back to another conspiracy theory that is in another thread regarding the FM, the Citadel and magic.

Which thread are you thinking of? I would love to read it! I also have copious speculation about the Citadel that I've been thinking about. :)

Just the fact that he asks Arya that question makes me wonder if he's fishing to see how much she knows or is willing to give up about what she knows. Maybe he wants to know if she knows her brother is living a "forever" existence in the weirwood! :D

Also, in this same chapter Arya is telling the KM about one of the courtesans having dragon blood, her name is Black Pearl. “Cat told the kindly man about the Black Pearl too. “Her true name is Bellegere Otherys,” she informed him..... “It is,” the priest said softly. “Her mother was Bellonara, but the first Black Pearl was a Bellegere as well.” Now I know this is just one of the three things that Cat learned for the KM and was telling him, but does anyone think it may have more significance? She's rumored to have dragon blood (which could mean everything or nothing) , but I guess what stood out to me was her last name, “Otherys” , I have no idea why, I guess because it sounds like “Others” lol and I have no idea where I would go with that. That's the end of my crackpotiness.

It is listed on the wiki that the First Black Pearl was a bastard daughter of king Aegon the IV. The Targaryen version of Robert who also started the first Blackfyre rebellion when he gave the sword to his bastard and legitimzed all the bastards when he died. So basically doesn't that make the Black Pearl a Targayen princess???? Hunh. Maybe someone who knows succession rules can tell me if a princess's princess is a princess herself.

BTW Is there a thread somewhere on what the unknown/unspoken but-always-attempted prophesy about a bastard king all these Targs kings are trying to fulfil somewhere? We have Aegon the IV giving the sword to his bastard and starting the war, and we have Egg's crazy Aerion brother toasting himself with wildfire once he has a bastard child and we've got Mellisandre and Aemon both talking about this "first the father then the son" prophesy and burning people to "wake the dragon", much like how Mad King Aerys burned Rickon Stark and son Brandon Stark and then went and raped Rhaella to conceive Deanarys. I think the whole Targ line has been expecting Jon Snow the bastard king from the get go. And probably competing amongst themselves to try and get him or be him because they see him as key to bringing dragons back. (Waking the sleeping dragon) If it isn't already somewhere on this board I think I need to start another thread. But OH the upkeep!!! lol Honestly I think Summerhall actually worked but it was just the first step. Because the point of Summerhall was to start offering up dragon blood lives to get dragon blood back. But Aegon the V came back as Rheagar, then offered that life up again to become Dany which paid for the three dragon lives. Then you've got Dunc the Small, who may have actually been Jon Snow (and if IIRC perhaps the Uncle who died in Egg's story???) and Duncan the Tall who may actually now be Brienne. That's why she felt like she had a connection to her old shield and had her current one repainted when she saw it in her father's armory.

If Egg married for love and married to someone with First Men blood, maybe this could also explain how the direwolves came back. Duncan the small and perhaps the Tall both may have had first men blood and they could have offered their lives in exchange to bring back some of the direwolves. Then we have Lyanna... Rickon Sr... Brandon Sr... that's five so far... four of those with fire... hmm.

Sorry this is such a total tangent crackpot but I guess I was wondering if there is another thread somewhere on this since it seems you knew the other one. XD

Also, read Urho's post below there was something I wrote about the quote in there too. :cheers:

An awesome topic might I say! Have just joined the forums and hadn't thought about this whole Missandei as a FM and Faceless men interested in Dany theory at all.

Welcome to the forum!!! :grouphug:

This topic opened my eyes and all the different theories within got my head spinning, but nontheless i have a couple of analysis of my own:

1. The majority of posters in this topic do think that Missandei has something more to her than meets the eye, but the question seems to be divided to two parts: Is she a FM or a CotF?

As a CotF why would she be a scribe for a slavemaster? She could possibly hide her CotF traits such as fewer fingers and splinted eyes with some form of magic. As a CotF she does live for hundreds of years so the role of a slavers scribe could give her insight concerning the world and all of its aspects, even the worst ones such as slavery. So it is plausible she could be a CotF, but if I was one and could use magic to transform my appearance, I would just do that and go experience life somewhere else.

My thought is that the CotF have probably been undercover for at least a thousand years because they wanted to keep tabs on Valyria when it was a rising power. The CotF probably wanted to keep the power they already had and not have another war that would burn their weirwoods. So I think there's a clear motive for them to go undercover there. That's why I think the FM organization was spawned from the CotF and why they are interested in keeping watch over the dragons.

If she was a FM she could look like an 11 -year old girl due to the fact that she has drunk poisons to keep her appearance like it was when she was infact 11 years old just like the waif had done. Or she could use glamour or bloodmagic to transform herself to look like an 11 year old just like a CotF. She could have been assigned by the FM masters to the task of bringing the gift for the slaves of Astapor and had been in the city by happenstance when Dany came there or she could have taken the role of Missandei later on when Missandei was still the original and close to Daenerys. The two things that make the infiltration of Missandei to Danys inner cirlce difficult are that firstly if the FM was already Missandei when Dany came to Astapor she couldn't have know that Dany would want her as a gift in the deal for the Unsullied so it would have been pure luck that she got close to her. And if the FM became Missandei later on by using the orginial Missandeis face Dany could have noticed the difference in the way she acted or the things she had told before that didn't match what she was telling after the FM had taken Missandeis place.

The only option if Missandei is a FM is in my opinion that she had been in place as Missandei for a longer period before Dany came to Astapor and because of that it was extremely unlikely that she would get close to Dany because she couldn't have know Dany would take her. Unless the FM can see the future in the flames. I would love for Missandei to be a FM but the theory has some holes such as the one i mentioned that i can't get my head around. Can someone please prove my analysis wrong so i can believe once again? :D

I'll try: (repeating what's above)

How did Missandei know Dany was going to come to Astapor and that she would have to go there to infiltrate herself with Dany and her people? She couldn't have know that Dany would want her as a gift in the deal for the Unsullied. (read the 6th and the 9th responses)

On top of this there is the reference to Bakkalon, the pale child, as potentially being who the soldiers of Astapor pray to for death since we see soldiers praying to her in the HoB&W. Grey Worm doesn't want to say her name to Dany to confirm it, but Missandei may be the FM plant because she may look like who they pray to when the want death in stature, and when she plays her role as Bakkalon it may be another face she has. (just edited the OP to add this info)

2. I like the topics offspring of FM and the Targaryens having a pact of somesorts and that the FM want to end slavery once and for all. They just haven't had the power to do it before because they are only a few servants of the Many-Faced god and don't have the necessary resources to do it themselves due to the whole continent of Essos being founded on slavery not taking into account few places were its forbidden. The theory of Targaryens being descendants of slaves seems interesting because then they could have ties to the founding of the FM and their abilities to bond with dragons that had been enslaved aswell. Based on the theory of Targaryens being descendants of slaves and possibly a part of the foundation of the FM and the Doom of Valyria the FM would be supporting Dany on her quest to abolish slavery.

You know, Starks Among Us quote below really got me thinking if the goal to abolish slavery is as selfless as it seems. There's this one part in that quote:

“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of the Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of the Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him...else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”

The kindly man is basically putting it out there that the Dragonlords enslaved and owned people, but that death owns ALL people. So doesn't that mean everyone is a slave to death and Valar Doheris. So maybe this whole Valyria vs Faceless men perhaps CotF thing is a fight over resources? Those resources being all of mankind who the FM is saying are basically death's slaves?

It would help explain why the Valyrians didn't invade Westeros, because Westeros was already enslaved by the CotF from the pact. (I think the pact was a surrender pact, not done by mutual agreement. Otherwise they would have signed it on neutral territory and not the God's eye.)

i think the FM may agree with the sentiment behind dany's crusade of slaver-burnin'-people-savin'-goodness but her fire and blood approach is very chaotic and creates too much collateral damage and i don't think the FM would approve.

Very good point! The collateral damage is really really bad. Perhaps they don't care if the Others are invading and they need the firepower?

Not in response to anyone but just another quote I thought was worth mentioning:

This is not proof of any sort, but perhaps foreshadowing about who Missandei is...

Kraznys smiled again when he heard that.“Tell the old man that he smells of piss, and needs a

stick to hold him up.”

“Truly, your worship?”

He poked her with his lash.“No, not truly, are you a girl or a goat, to ask such folly?

The black goat is one of the statues representing death in the HoB&W.

If I needed an alternate title to this thread it would have to be "Missandei's a goat". :D

This line was in the show too. I was glad to see it in because I thought it was great dialogue. :)

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I think if you search for "faceless man conspiracy" you should get the thread I'm talking about, it's pretty extensive. As far as bastard kings, have you read any of the Varys is a Blackfyre theories? I was reading One that speculated hi as a son of Aerion Brightflame.

I think perhaps the dragonlord hated the Targs 1) for going against the grain and being anti slaves 2) because they bonded rather then binded their dragons. I think the Targs may have started the rebellion and when their involvement was discovered they knew all hell was going to break loose so they fled. I think they let them leave thinking since they were gone things would get back to the way they wanted. If that makes any sense.

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This is a great theory! She's got great possibility as a Checkov's gun, doesn't she. So innocent... until you put all these little things together.

If she is a FM, what does you think her role is in the upcoming books?

I'm thinking she'll have to get info from Jaqen and probably meet up with Arya somehow. Perhaps Issandei asks Arya to do something she won't which is how Arya leaves the FM like many people think she will.

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The Other's Take Ya and Starks among us.

I absolutely loved both of yours posts regarding the Black Pearl theory and the Summerhall and waking the dragon theories. I also have noticed the points you both made and wondered over them. I am so pleased to know I am not the only person with some crackpot ideas regarding our entire story and the previous generation just reliving an earlier generation..lol Maybe it really is all about Jon Snow. I especially loved the Brienne and Duncan connection. Isn't it funny how Brienne is traveling looking for Sansa and she is carrying Ned's sword..Sansa's father and actually Sansa's mother's line comes from Harrenhall the bat's shield from Sansa's Whent grandmother..which Brienne had repainted like Duncan's shield..all so interesting.

I think I read somewhere on another thread that Arya in the five year plan that GRRM originally had..was supposed to be much more involved with the Black Pearl. I would have loved to read about that. Actually after GRRM finishes our series..if he ever decided to write more stories about Arya in Bravos and her adventures..I would love it.

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Honestly, I never thought of the current generation being a living reenactment of a past generation until this thread lol. I will have to look more into it, I have not read the D&E novels. It sounds like an interesting theory though!

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This is a great theory! She's got great possibility as a Checkov's gun, doesn't she. So innocent... until you put all these little things together.

If she is a FM, what does you think her role is in the upcoming books?

I'm thinking she'll have to get info from Jaqen and probably meet up with Arya somehow. Perhaps Issandei asks Arya to do something she won't which is how Arya leaves the FM like many people think she will.

ooohhh... speculation time. I think she'll be more overt in her role as master of whisperers with Dany, but only after Dany passes the test of whether she'll use the Dragonbinder horn or not. I think whether she uses the slave horn is what will clinch her loyalty to her.

If she does use it I think Missandei will find a way to poison the dragons that are bound. However I'm thinking the horn will not work on either Drogon or Viserion. But on Rheagal it might. I am predicting Barristan noticing the Brazen Beast's wolf mask with the lolling tongue and thinking "That's new." is pointing to the fact Jon Snow ended up in the dragon and not Ghost to begin with. (I could say more on why I think this but I will keep this to Missandei.)

Once the dragons are bound either via the Valyrian blood and relationship (Drogon to Dany) or by dragon-but-similar-to-warging relationship via first men blood (Jon and Bran) then I think they'll be safe. Missandei's role should then transition to being a known master of whispers for Dany and her relationship to communicate with the CotF and Braavos, who I think would then support her.

Although I wouldn't be surprised if all her slavery overthrowing is in the CotF favor, not man's because in the end Dany's just protecting their interests because CotF feel they own all of man too from the pact. Valar Doheris right? Why fight a battle yourself when you can get your slaves to do it for you. So much as the Unsullied were a slave army for man, Dany ends up unwittingly being the slave army for the CotF and I think she'll have to come to that realization to break free of it.

So that's my speculation, at the moment I like it and I'm sticking to it. Many things, motivations and storylines seem to fall into place somehow when I continue on that train of thought.

I am so pleased to know I am not the only person with some crackpot ideas regarding our entire story and the previous generation just reliving an earlier generation..lol

Oh yay! Seriously me too! Could this be the start of the reincarnation club?

I tried starting a thread that got locked earlier on how the lemon tree memory Dany has of the house with the red door was kind of a lemon memory and she was mixing up infancy in Braavos with the tower of joy, but it got locked. I admittedly got cheeky so I just left it alone. (Premise of the theory: No matter how rich someone is to support it, a tropical lemon tree can't grow outside and survive in the harsh foggy freezing rain climate of Braavos located at the corner of the shivering sea with the level of technology in the story. Conclusion: its a Rheagar memory from when she/he was happy at the tower of joy in Dorne because Dorne has lemon trees in abundance.) Therefore she's been reincarnated and its another point of evidence that shows she may be AA reborn.

Plus Lyanna's statue has no iron sword to bind her to her grave, so there's that hint too on Arya's side. The iron swords and what spirits might be loosed because of the oldest statues' swords disintegrating is a concern of his in AGOT. So maybe Ned could have had some idea that Arya was Lyanna reborn too.

But again, I digress into crackpottery. I think the other characters and their story parallels were what led me to Brienne and Summerhall and Dunk.

edit: ok, I can't help myself. I want to be the first to say it. Tyrion is Shiera Seastar. The humor, the eyes, the smarts, and sorcery enough in her generation that she felt like getting married would not be something she wanted. Prescient dreams of her future life as Tyrion perhaps?

haha

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While this thread is still on the "reincarnation" angle I thought I would go over how I think the dragon names represent Dany's reincarnated brothers. Not just from her life as Dany but ALSO how they are mixed with the names from her time as Egg.

Dragon 1:

Viserion = Viserys + see spoilers

Viserys was Dany's crazy brother from the story

D&E The Hedge Knight spoilers:

Aerion was Egg's crazy brother in D&E

Viserion = Viserys + Aerion

Here's what Daeron (Aerion and Egg's older brother) says about crazy brother Aerion:

“Egg has the truth of it. Aerion’s quite the monster. He thinks he’s a dragon in human form, you know. That’s why he was so wroth at that puppet show."

and another strange thing Aerion accosts Egg about...

And Aerion . . . I remember, when I was little, he used to come into my bedchamber at night and put his knife between my legs. He had too many brothers, he’d say, maybe one night he’d make me his sister, then he could marry me.

Remember Illyrio tells Tyrion that he had to put guards on Dany while they were in Pentos because Viserys was intent on raping Dany before she married Drogo.

Dragon 2:

Rheagal = Rhaegar + Egg (short for Aegon) + al??? instead of ar? but that seems funny... the al is the only part I can't trace at the moment.

The only name I can find with "al" is Alysanne, but curiously the name of her son is unknown too. It may be nothing though since the other two dragon names are only composites of two names.

Rheagar = Dany's brother/probably herself

Egg = Egg from D&E, died at Summerhall, Rhaegar always felt a connection to Summerhall

Alysanne = queen to Jahaerys the 1st, notably, she flew her dragon silverwing to the wall and the name of her son is not yet known. We know the song about her is sad but we don't know why.

Dragon 3:

Drogon = Drogo + see spoilers

Drogo = Dany's husband

Dunk and Egg Hedge knight spoilers:

Drogon = Drogo + Daeron

Daeron = Egg's drunk brother who couldn't handle his dreams...

"I dreamed of you and a dead dragon, you see. A great beast, huge, with wings so large they could cover this meadow."

These two characters don't seem to have much in common except it looks like they have a larger sense of decency and human kindness to them. Daeron is not viscious like Aerion and it is possible Dany ends up marrying Drogo because he's the reincarnation of her older brother. Much like Aerion is always threatening to marry Egg.

There is another possibility that the dragon that Daeron dreamed about - who ends up being Baelor Breakspear - could have been Drogo's previous life, however the names don't match up, really just the wingspan from the dream does. Plus Daeron would have been a brother and we know Targs marry brother to sister but I have not heard if they marry relatives outside of their current generation.

Drogo may simply have been a sobered up, more muscled version of Daeron in his AGOT life.

edit: One more thing about Daeron... he is really petrified that the Dragon could be him and that Dunk is going to kill is him. Is it possible that the dream may not just represent the death of a dragon at Dunk's hands in the fight, but also Brienne, reincarnated from Dunk, may end up killing Drogon, reincarnated from Drogo/Dareon in the future? He seemed pretty scared of Dunk when he was "in his cups" when he first met him.

He rubbed his mouth, blinked at Dunk, and said, “I dreamed of you.” His hand trembled as he pointed a finger. “You stay away from me, do you hear? You stay well away.”

To bring it all back to Missandei, if she is a FM and the dragons work for them, I think she has some idea of all of this already. I think the FM's many faced god that they get their marching orders from is actually the weirwood (remember the door heard Arya and opened all on its own and weirwood was prominent in the meeting room when they decided who would kill who). The weirwood contains the spirits of those who have passed. If those spirits were reincarnated, well... the weirwood would know they aren't in there at the moment wouldn't they! :D

So I think it's history repeating itself in Dany's generation. She has lost all her brother's and her husband, same as how Egg lost his brothers and ended up becoming king because he was the fourth son of a fourth son. Dany had Rheagar, Viserys and Drogo die before her so she is 4th in line after them to rule. Aemon never died from Egg's time so he never reincarnated. Her life as Rheagar took an extra place that Aemon's reincarnated life would have in order to again, just like her life as Egg, put her fourth in line to the throne.

I think its pretty cool how it all parallels!!! GRRM rocks!!!

edit: in spoiler #2

edit 2: fixed unclear sentences, added Alysanne info

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wow i've seen some crackpot theories but the reincarnation stuff takes the cake.

I luuuuuuuvvv cake.

In an effort to avoid derailing this thread any further, I finally created a reincarnation thread here with the information that lays out the basics of why my pot cracks this way. :D

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I had to copy paste and print to think on these theories for a while. Mind blown if true and kuddos to you The Others Take Ya for even being able to come up with this.

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One question The Others Take Ya, should we be relooking at which characters at WinterFell in the crypts had their iron swords removed? Would this be a hint that the swords that Hodor et all are carrying might mean they are re enacting the dead ancestors? You mentioned Arya and Lyanna, which made me start to think about those missing iron swords and the idea that the shades of former Starks are now in play.

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No, she is Babette!

And yes, you have to learn one thing: Never trust in Sothorosi.

Ok, she is really too "suspect" but I believe in her innocence.

Man, she is just a young girl with a gift... the girl can't be intelligent without being a witch?She can even betray Daeny, but I don't believe that she is a cryptic old assassin witch.

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One question The Others Take Ya, should we be relooking at which characters at WinterFell in the crypts had their iron swords removed? Would this be a hint that the swords that Hodor et all are carrying might mean they are re enacting the dead ancestors? You mentioned Arya and Lyanna, which made me start to think about those missing iron swords and the idea that the shades of former Starks are now in play.

This is an interesting topic

Osha took the sword Mikken made for Ned

Meera took Ned's father, Rickon's sword

Bran took his uncle Brandon's sword

There is an interesting quote in the part where it describes the swords:

Regarding Mikken making Ned's sword, the quote is "He had forged it for Lord Eddard's tomb, to keep his ghost at rest"

Thanks for your crackpottery Others - you've got a couple going that are mind benders.

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I had to copy paste and print to think on these theories for a while. Mind blown if true and kuddos to you The Others Take Ya for even being able to come up with this.

Thanks! I just posted in the other thread to explain my thought process behind why I think the HotRD = ToJ.

Here's the link for your convenience.

One question The Others Take Ya, should we be relooking at which characters at WinterFell in the crypts had their iron swords removed? Would this be a hint that the swords that Hodor et all are carrying might mean they are re enacting the dead ancestors? You mentioned Arya and Lyanna, which made me start to think about those missing iron swords and the idea that the shades of former Starks are now in play.

If you want to. :) See below.

No, she is Babette!

And yes, you have to learn one thing: Never trust in Sothorosi.

Ok, she is really too "suspect" but I believe in her innocence.

Man, she is just a young girl with a gift... the girl can't be intelligent without being a witch?She can even betray Daeny, but I don't believe that she is a cryptic old assassin witch.

lol Honestly in a world where every character has something grey about them and the best guy besides Missandei there is is Davos (who you gotta love but you still have to admit his myopic loyalty could be seen to be a big fault, even by him) I can't believe Missandei doesn't have something going on with her and it must be major to still seem so innocent after so long.

I'm genuinely curious. Why do you think there is nothing out of the ordinary with sweet Missandei? Why do you think she can be innocent while every other character has so many nefarious plots and schemes they're involved in? How did you reach that opinion? :)

(It could just be "because you're normal and I'm a genuinely paranoid kind of person! :D)

This is an interesting topic

Osha took the sword Mikken made for Ned

Meera took Ned's father, Rickon's sword

Bran took his uncle Brandon's sword

There is an interesting quote in the part where it describes the swords:

Regarding Mikken making Ned's sword, the quote is "He had forged it for Lord Eddard's tomb, to keep his ghost at rest"

Thanks for your crackpottery Others - you've got a couple going that are mind benders.

Yah I like bendy lol. :D I'm not saying "right" or "wrong", only GRRM can establish that, just bendy.

Here's the quote I think of when I think of the iron swords keeping the spirits in their graves:

AGOT Eddard I

The shifting shadows made the stone figures seem to stir as the living passed by. By ancient custom an iron longsword had been laid across the lap of each who had been Lord of Winterfell, to keep the vengeful spirits in their crypts. The oldest had long ago rusted away to nothing, leaving only a few red stains where the metal had rested on stone. Ned wondered if that meant those ghosts were free to roam the castle now. He hoped not.

This is despite Catelyn thinking earlier:

AGOT Catelyn I

Dread coiled within her like a snake, but she forced herself to smile at this man she loved, this man who put no faith in signs.

but that's not exactly true though, because in the chapter before when the direwolves are found:

“It is a sign,” Jory said.

Father frowned. “This is only a dead animal, Jory,” he said. Yet he seemed troubled.

Even Bran is noticing that despite Ned's words, he's not exactly not footloose and fancy free about the whole situation.

Even Bran is picking up on Ned's reluctance to dismiss the sign, while Catelyn just seems to be oblivious that he's putting on a front that he doesn't care about the "sign". He's the lord, he has to be the steady one. He can't just go around freaking out about signs and ghosts in front of everyone. So basically I think Ned does believe that the spirits are loose, but he keeps quiet about it. Basically just like he keeps quiet about everything.

I find it really interesting that the 8 year old is picking up on his father's inner workings and not his wife though! You've got to wonder what that says about either how well Catelyn knew him or how well he hid things from Catelyn when Bran is picking up on things and Cat's oblivious. XD

When it comes to swords taken, we have Ned's, Rickon's and Brandon's. Note that Rickon and Brandon were burned before being laid to rest in Winterfell. In fact it's possible there is nothing left of them at all in the crypt. Wildfire is supposed to burn hotter and longer then normal fire and I can't see crazy Aerys being so charitable in the moment as to return the ashes to the Starks to be buried. In fact this reminds me of the prologue of ADWD where Summer is snacking on some nice wight, and once he cracks the bones to get to the marrow it finally stops moving. What happened? Is the soul to a body in the marrow of the bones? If a body is burned down to the marrow, does the soul "escape" in ASOIAF? Does this mean that the souls of Rickard and Brandon may never have entered the crypts and instead, could have come back? So instead of the souls being in the crypt since their burial, could they have already come back?

dun dun dun...

so again, going to the theme of people who may be reincarnated, I think based on personality alone, Lord Rickard could have come back as Bran and his son Brandon could have come back as Rickard. In which case taking the swords of Rickard and Brandon let loose... absolutely no one! The swords were meant for them to begin with and the spirits they were meant for are walking around with them! :D

And the sword that was for Ned that Meera grabbed? Well we know he seemed to be communicating to Arya in the weirwood at Harrenhal when she heard him tell her "lone wolf dies but the pack survives". I think he's around with the Old Gods. Maybe Lady Dustin isn't actually waiting to take "revenge" on Ned to stop his bones from being buried in the crypt, but perhaps, protecting them from Ramsay who would. By telling Theon that she meant to see them never come to the crypt, perhaps that was as a feint so if Ramsay were ever to find her keeping them safe, she has an excuse prepared and already planted that Theon could vouch for on her behalf now.

Another theory out there is that Ned's soul is in Shaggydog. Rickon did go down there with him after the beheading in AGOT and say he saw him there and I find Bran's reaction to Maester Luwin wanting to chain him up again interesting. Even Bran says "He was not made for chains" in his defense which sounds a little creepy. Where did that come from?! I know most people look at the "Ned's in Shaggydog" threads and cry *crackpot alert!!!* but the text does make you want to have a second look. (And I like to get cracking :D) The behavior of the two dogs fighting and then coming together once the raven arrives to tell Luwin Ned's dead like they're supporting each other. Maybe Ned's freaking out over getting himself killed? Varamyr lived a second live in a wolf... Shaggy WAS in his crypt... The kings were buried with their direwolves when they had them... It just seems like it could be the biggest fake out ever if the next books follow through on the hints in that direction. Geez.

The only outstanding question in my mind is whose sword Hodor grabbed. And why did he feel the need to wander off and grab an old one when other newer ones were right there? lol

snip...

Can we add the fact Missendei knows TWELVE languages expertly to the growing evidence she is not only older than she purports to be but also significantly better educated. Are to understand that Ghisacri slave master bought her already like that in the first place?? I mean, woah, so how old was she when he bought her? And she was a slave huh? As in, from not a particularly privileged background? What is her background?

snip...

You know I kept forgetting to add that!!! Now done! (credit to you for suggesting it of course)

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Something I found interesting, and I'm not sure if it's been discussed during my time away from this thread, but I'm doing my ADWD reread and when Young Griff is getting his history lesson they are discussing the following....

They are speaking of the Tiger's and the Elephants (political parties) …

"The Tiger's held sway for almost a century after the Doom of Valyria. For a time they were successful. A Volantene fleet too Lys and a Volantene army captured Myr, and for two generations all three cities were ruled from within the Black Walls. That ended when the tigers tried to swallow Tyrosh. Pentos came into the war on the Tyroshi side, along with the Westerosi Storm King. Braavos provided a Lyseni exile with a hundred warships, Aegon Targaryen flew forth from Dragonstone on the Black Dread, and Myr and Lys rose up in rebellion. The war left the Disputed Lands a waste, and freed Lys and Myr from the yoke. The tigers suffered other defeats as well...." (fAegon)

"And what lesson can we draw from Volantene history?" (Halfmaester)

"If you want to conquer the world, you best have dragons." (fAegon)

At this point Tyrion laughs, and the lesson is forgotten and over. I would think that there is a more valuable lesson though that the Halfmaester was trying to teach to fAegon.

I get the impression that this goes deeper than just territorial disputes. We know slaves are abundant in Essos, but I propose that this uprising and war was about slavery. Aegon Targaryen and Braavos worked together, there were rebellions in Myr and Lys – I think it may have been a slavery rebellion. It puts Pentos, Tyrosh, Braavos and Aegon all on the same side of this war. Myr and Lys rose and were 'freed from the yoke'. If Braavos and Aegon were working together I think it was in some capactiy to either end slavery or prevent its spread. Illyrio is in Pentos, Pentos has an agreement with Braavos that they will not have slaves, and yet Illyrio undoubtedly has slaves- even if he does not refer to them as such. Lys slaves are well known as well as slaves from Myr. The Dothraki have slaves. I'm wondering if the entire war didn't have something to do with slavery in some way. I don't see Braavos getting involved in a war for “trade” (that really doesn't concern them) unless it's something that touches close to the heart- such as slavery as Braavos was founded by slaves. The Tigers wanted to dominate by sword, the Elephants wanted to dominate by trade – swords would mean they would use slaves to fight their wars, trade would mean they would be buying and selling slaves.

Now I know I'm not making a lot of sense, and I know I really sound like I don't know what I'm talking about and that I'm not making a point. I guess the important thing is that when this war happened, for whatever reason, Aegon Targ. And Braavos felt the need to involve themselves- why??? Were they trying to abolish slavery, prevent it's spread? Curious as to thoughts on exactly what their motives were for getting involved as this could help to explain the “blood of the dragon” and the connections between Braavos and the Targaryens and any other connections they may have had in the past. I don't see any reason why they “had” to get involved , Braavos and Westeros are pretty far from Volantis it's not as though the war going on there would have had any immediate imminent threat on them or their lifestyle.

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Imo Missande isn't a FM. But her closeness to Dany makes her a good target for an FM take over. Even though the Waif is small, I don't think she would be strong enough to do the mission. The KM tells Arya that women in the FM cult are rare. Rare and probably women grown. This would make them unfit to play Missande.

Although Arya is inexperienced, she is slight of build and would be a perfect fit for Missande, physically.

At one point there is a meeting of the hierarchy of FM. Arya is a cup bearer at this meeting. She notes they are arguing over something, but she doesn't understand what. I think it may be what to do about a Dragon Lord (Dany) conquering and destroying Essos. Some argue that Arya must be used because of Missande' s age and size. While others( the KM) argue she isn't ready. They come to an agreement to try her out as " the Ugly Girl" to see if she's got what it takes. Just my 2 grotes,worth.

Edit sp.

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T

Imo Missande isn't a FM. But her closeness to Dany makes her a good target for an FM take over. Even though the Waif is small, I don't think she would be strong enough to do the mission. The KM tells Arya that women in the FM cult are rare. Rare and probably women grown. This would make them unfit to play Missande.

Although Arya is inexperienced, she is slight of build and would be a perfect fit for Missande, physically.

At one point there is a meeting of the hierarchy of FM. Arya is a cup bearer at this meeting. She notes they are arguing over something, but she doesn't understand what. I think it may be what to do about a Dragon Lord (Dany) conquering and destroying Essos. Some argue that Arya must be used because of Missande' s age and size. While others( the KM) argue she isn't ready. They come to an agreement to try her out as " the Ugly Girl" to see if she's got what it takes. Just my 2 grotes,worth.

Edit sp.

Well, that brings up why they would dislike Dany when she is freeing every slave she comes across.

But as the Arya thing, I really got a huge kick out of the fact that she has a rep already. The guy that gives her the mission is obviously familiar with her personality and to a degree fond of her character traits. They might have been arguing about Arya, but the plague guy is obviously well disposed towards her.

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Imo Missande isn't a FM. But her closeness to Dany makes her a good target for an FM take over. Even though the Waif is small, I don't think she would be strong enough to do the mission. The KM tells Arya that women in the FM cult are rare. Rare and probably women grown. This would make them unfit to play Missande.

Although Arya is inexperienced, she is slight of build and would be a perfect fit for Missande, physically.

At one point there is a meeting of the hierarchy of FM. Arya is a cup bearer at this meeting. She notes they are arguing over something, but she doesn't understand what. I think it may be what to do about a Dragon Lord (Dany) conquering and destroying Essos. Some argue that Arya must be used because of Missande' s age and size. While others( the KM) argue she isn't ready. They come to an agreement to try her out as " the Ugly Girl" to see if she's got what it takes. Just my 2 grotes,worth.

Edit sp.

missandei is a tricky cover for arya, the girl speak like 9 different languages is better to just kill someone else on dany's inner circle skahaz or barry (please not barry T_T)

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Something I found interesting, and I'm not sure if it's been discussed during my time away from this thread, but I'm doing my ADWD reread and when Young Griff is getting his history lesson they are discussing the following....

They are speaking of the Tiger's and the Elephants (political parties) …

"The Tiger's held sway for almost a century after the Doom of Valyria. For a time they were successful. A Volantene fleet too Lys and a Volantene army captured Myr, and for two generations all three cities were ruled from within the Black Walls. That ended when the tigers tried to swallow Tyrosh. Pentos came into the war on the Tyroshi side, along with the Westerosi Storm King. Braavos provided a Lyseni exile with a hundred warships, Aegon Targaryen flew forth from Dragonstone on the Black Dread, and Myr and Lys rose up in rebellion. The war left the Disputed Lands a waste, and freed Lys and Myr from the yoke. The tigers suffered other defeats as well...." (fAegon)

"And what lesson can we draw from Volantene history?" (Halfmaester)

"If you want to conquer the world, you best have dragons." (fAegon)

At this point Tyrion laughs, and the lesson is forgotten and over. I would think that there is a more valuable lesson though that the Halfmaester was trying to teach to fAegon.

I get the impression that this goes deeper than just territorial disputes. We know slaves are abundant in Essos, but I propose that this uprising and war was about slavery. Aegon Targaryen and Braavos worked together, there were rebellions in Myr and Lys – I think it may have been a slavery rebellion. It puts Pentos, Tyrosh, Braavos and Aegon all on the same side of this war. Myr and Lys rose and were 'freed from the yoke'. If Braavos and Aegon were working together I think it was in some capactiy to either end slavery or prevent its spread. Illyrio is in Pentos, Pentos has an agreement with Braavos that they will not have slaves, and yet Illyrio undoubtedly has slaves- even if he does not refer to them as such. Lys slaves are well known as well as slaves from Myr. The Dothraki have slaves. I'm wondering if the entire war didn't have something to do with slavery in some way. I don't see Braavos getting involved in a war for “trade” (that really doesn't concern them) unless it's something that touches close to the heart- such as slavery as Braavos was founded by slaves. The Tigers wanted to dominate by sword, the Elephants wanted to dominate by trade – swords would mean they would use slaves to fight their wars, trade would mean they would be buying and selling slaves.

Now I know I'm not making a lot of sense, and I know I really sound like I don't know what I'm talking about and that I'm not making a point. I guess the important thing is that when this war happened, for whatever reason, Aegon Targ. And Braavos felt the need to involve themselves- why??? Were they trying to abolish slavery, prevent it's spread? Curious as to thoughts on exactly what their motives were for getting involved as this could help to explain the “blood of the dragon” and the connections between Braavos and the Targaryens and any other connections they may have had in the past. I don't see any reason why they “had” to get involved , Braavos and Westeros are pretty far from Volantis it's not as though the war going on there would have had any immediate imminent threat on them or their lifestyle.

The Doom of Valyria was at least indirectly begun by the brutal conditions in which the slaves worked. The beginnings of the FM the KM states they had involvement in the doom.

The beginning membership were slaves who wished death upon their masters. I believe membership swelled because all the slaves had to offer in return for the"gift" was their own lives as acolytes.

Bravos was the hidden city founded by former slaves. Once it was discovered trade probably began to flourish.

Most trade wars begin with embargoes. Bravos produces almost no agricultural foods so an embargo would have hit them hardest.

As far as the other free cities their economies depend upon slave labor to produce goods.

The Tigers may have been demanding unreasonable terms to lift blockades and embargoes.

The Targs a lower rung family of Valyria, most likely know that greed and brutal slave conditions at least partly caused the doom, feel all out war would destroy the rest of Essos felt some responsibility to intervene.

Another possibility is Aegon and his family have been given an ultimatum by the FM

Who have only grown more powerful sense the Doom.

I'm sure someone has come up with other reasons as well. These are two reasons of the top of my head.

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