Randyll Tarly is an terrible commander

[The Frost Wolf]

No other thread like this as far as I've searched.

Randyll Tarly is constantly noted as one of the best commanders in Westeros, whenever a thread about commanders and leaders of the realm comes into question, this guy always makes the list. Not only that, he's always considered one of the best. But once you cut through the illusion that's built around him and actually consider the facts, his glowing reputation isn't so bright. On the contrary, he actually seems to be all talk and no game. Here's the facts:

1. Mace Tyrell's greatest accomplishment, giving Robert Baratheon his only defeat during the rebellion at Ashford. Now we all know that Randyll's van smashed Robert before Mace even got there, so hats off to Randyll for this victory, right? No.

- He's got the power of the Reach in his van, that means armoured lances, heavy horse and experienced knights. Renly's mounted strength (more on that later) at Storm's End numbered give or take 20,000 (including Stormlanders). So let's say Randyll only has around 10,000-15,000. Meanwhile, Robert's host had just won three consecutive battles at Summerhall. In those three battles he would've lost a considerable amount of men, surprise attack or no. And we know the Stormlands can't raise that large a host compared to other areas (like the Reach), so Randyll would have been crushing Robert's thousands with double or even triple his numbers.

- Randyll has fresh levies. Robert's men are battered and tired (reference to his famous night marches). We know that in aSoIaF and in war, that the amount of troops doesn't mean victory. There are many other factors. This was the Reach's first battle in the Rebellion, so while they're fresh and supplied, Robert is moving further and further away from his power base (Storm's End) and doing so at a fast pace with already tried/blooded troops.

- Robert escaped. Then the Tyrells moved to Storm's End. He needed to follow up this victory with something more impacting on the war other than being able to say that they dealt Robert his only defeat. If they had pursued Robert and captured him before he got to Stoney Sept then the war would be over. But no, they moved onto Storm's End instead. While this does cut Robert off from his castle, supplies and fresh troops, it was an odd move. They must've known that the North, Vale and Riverlands had risen in Rebellion too, while they're acting like it's just Robert they should be worrying about. Being one of the Tyrell's main commanders, Randyll most like had input on the decision to move onto Storm's End and to not pursue Robert.

- This part is more speculative, but Randyll most like had input to put all the strength of the Reach into laying siege to Storm's End. I've seen that many think this a theory, that the Tyrells wanted to bide their time to see if the Targ's would lose, thus minimalising their own losses and allowing them to join Robert's realm later. But if you don't buy that, then what was going on here? All the troops that could have been used in King's Landing or on the Trident? Yes, the Tyrell's sent some men to the Trident, but not the majority which stayed at Storm's End. They had plenty of time to get men there, Dorne managed to get 10,000 spears to the Trident to fight with Rhaegar. So what's their excuse?

2. aCoK, Catelyn, p. 436

"I say that Stannis is a danger to you," Lord Randyll Tarly declared. "Leave him unblooded and he will only grow stronger, while your own power is diminished in battle. The Lannisters will not be beaten in a day. By the time you are done with them, Lord Stannis may be as strong as you ... or stronger."

Um, what? Am I missing the secret House that can field 20,000 (and more) troops which is just waiting to support Stannis? Cause if so, it hasn't been revealed. Stannis could really use your help now, secret House. There are no troops left who can flock to Stannis. Crownlands are with the Lannisters, Dorne is neutral (or eventually going to support Renly as Renly believes), the Stormlands and Reach have all gone over to Renly. So in the absence of this secret Stannis-loving army, Randyll was just talking bullshit to get Renly to like him and side with him rather than Mathis Rowan (who's plan of just leaving Stannis and moving on to King's Landing sounded much better). Wouldn't the well-being and best possible plan take priority over rather than doing the irrational, more damaging option? Not for Tarly. Most likely he wanted lands and favours from Renly when he came into his throne and that's why he appealed to Renly's impulsive nature. Serving his own selfish ambitions rather than doing the best thing potentially for his king/troops.

3. Randyll's pyhrric victory at Duskendale in aSoS. Randyll has the advantage of more troops, having travelled less distance, being mounted and even the element of surprise. He pens up the Northern foot at Duskendale and wins. Great, except he had HEAVY LOSSES. Is this a good commander? How many more advantages can this guy have and his troops still sustain casualties? And not only that, (Ser Helman Tallhart was slain to be fair) but Robett Glover and parts of the Northern army escapes! The Mountain has to mop up Randyll's mess on Robett's retreat back to the Riverlands. Is Randyll against capturing people or does he just not like to follow through with his actions? Seriously, with one fight he could've taken out a third of the Northern foot with small losses and captured the Highborn commanders. I call that awful leadership and would scold him for Duskendale if I was his superior rather than praise him.

So, do you concur? What's your opinion?

[Myrish Swamp Thing]

I'm waiting for the "Arianne Martell is ugly" thread.

[The Frost Wolf]

I'm waiting for the "Arianne Martell is ugly" thread.

I have another idea, how about actually read through the post I spent a lot of time on instead of making smart little comments that make you feel like you're being funny. Is that so hard?

[Dreadnaught]

I agree, plus wasn't Duskendale supposed to be a trap as well.

[Lord Illidan Stormrage]

I'm waiting for the "Arianne Martell is ugly" thread.

I agree - people on this forum love to devalue the characters they don't like. We have only fragments of information about Randyll and second hand reports - the characters in ASOIAF who know the whole story value and trust him - i would trust their asesment over some half-says of fifth hand accounts.

[Valyria's Finest]

I have thought alot about what you have said as well, and I agree that Tarly has alot of hype. I believe that even a mediocre commander can succeed with the stength of the Reach at his command, which Tarly has had the benefit of having. His reputation for being a tough guy and his emphasis on discipline I think contribute to him being perceived as a good commander.

[The Frost Wolf]

I agree - people on this forum love to devalue the characters they don't like. We have only fragments of information about Randyll and second hand reports - the characters in ASOIAF who know the whole story value and trust him - i would trust their asesment over some half-says of fifth hand accounts.

But the evidence I layed out isn't fifth hand accounts. It's all facts. And people can be misguided by hype and false accomplishments, just look at the world around you.

[Myrish Swamp Thing]

OK, keeping it simple. He was the only loyalist general to win a battle during the Rebellion, and at least a couple of Great Lords trust him to fight their battles. That alone puts him easily above the "terrible" tier.

[Mladen]

But the evidence I layed out isn't fifth hand accounts. It's all facts. And people can be misguided by hype and false accomplishments, just look at the world around you.

No, wrong. Thses are not facts. This is just your perception of the events that occured. I am sorry, this looks very thought of, but it`s wrong.

All I can say is thumbsup for attempt.

[Lord Bresteil of the North]

You're second point is totally invalid. Stannis did become a big threat as Randyll predicted.

And while Ashford weren't complete victory he would probably have been outnumbered (it is estimated that the Stormlands can mass about 45,000 men).

As to the siege of Storm's End, the reach did no want to fight a war so they pulled out. They got very close to what they wanted in the end, minimal loss of men though their power in King's landing was somewhat decreased for 17 years.

This character bashing is starting to get ridiculous. I could understand Tywin and Robb but this one just doesn't make any sense.

[Mladen]

This character bashing is starting to get ridiculous. I could understand Tywin and Robb but this one just doesn't make any sense.

Any character bashing is not only ridiculous than also unproductive. If people would only start making serious analysis... Well, there are coupe of them worth mentioning (Sansa, Arya, Tyrion)

[Pinkie Baelish]

I'm waiting for the "Arianne Martell is ugly" thread.

I'll start one just as soon as I finish my "Barristan Selmy is a horrendous fighter" thread.

[Lord Bresteil of the North]

I'll start one just as soon as I finish my "Barristan Selmy is a horrendous fighter" thread.

I have a few good points lined up for my Gregor Clegane is not very strong or tall thread.

[Grip]

I think Randyll Tarly excells as a vanguard commander but judging by Duskendale perhaps he is overly agressive? A man better suited for a minor command, the vanguard or some such, rather then command of an entire army. But in any case he is experienced enough, there are probably not many that can match in this regard. In any case his reputation is probably out of proportion, but that is the case with many commanders out there..

I think that in some ways he can be compared to John Bell Hood, who fought at Gettysburg;

http://en.wikipedia..../John_Bell_Hood

"Hood had a reputation for bravery and aggressiveness that sometimes bordered on recklessness." and

"Hood became increasingly ineffective as he was promoted to lead larger, independent commands late in the war."

Perhaps that is indeed stretching it but still..

[Lord Illidan Stormrage]

I'll start one just as soon as I finish my "Barristan Selmy is a horrendous fighter" thread.

I've already begun - indeed there are many proof that Arianne is ugly. Just look at when she tried to seduce Renly - he even smiled surprised that such an ugly woman would try to get on with him. She also has problems with Balon Swan - i don't know about you but for me she must be a hag people only treat nicely because she is a princess.

[redriver]

Old Nan wasn't very old either,she was just hamming it up to get out of doing any work.

[Pinkie Baelish]

I've already begun - indeed there are many proof that Arianne is ugly. Just look at when she tried to seduce Renly - he even smiled surprised that such an ugly woman would try to get on with him. She also has problems with Balon Swan - i don't know about you but for me she must be a hag people only treat nicely because she is a princess.

Buxom? I think not. She's not curvy at all. She's just a fat midget who's so ugly that her lover goes and gets himself decapitated out of shame. There's a reason why she's 23 and still unmarried, that ugly windbag....

[redriver]

Seriously though,is there anyone in the books who doubts Tarly's skill as a battle commander?

[Minstral]

2. aCoK, Catelyn, p. 436

"I say that Stannis is a danger to you," Lord Randyll Tarly declared. "Leave him unblooded and he will only grow stronger, while your own power is diminished in battle. The Lannisters will not be beaten in a day. By the time you are done with them, Lord Stannis may be as strong as you ... or stronger."

When the King of England John "Lackland" pissed off his Barons one too many times, they invited the crown prince of France to take the throne as he had a claim through the maternal line. He was crowned by these Barons, and seemed sure to replace King John. Well, John died and his underage son succeeded him as Henry the third. This event caused the support for the french prince to ebb away until the war was won at the battle of Lincoln. Relying on the support of Medieval lords at times like this is not a wise thing, in fact more wars were fought between a king and his vassals than a foreign kingdom. If you wore a crown during this time, you cannot afford to take the legitimacy of the persons claim for granted. So Tarly's advice is pretty solid in this instance, the Florents essentially have their foot in both camps (Stannis's wife) and we see just how fickle these lords can be after the death of Renly.

[Ser Ilyn's Tongue]

I'm with the OP somewhat. True Tarly did win at Ashford and Duskendale so he can't be terrible, but neither are they significant enough battles or victories to label him a "great" commander.

His reputation comes only from what other characters say about him, when / if we see him leading a force we will be able to judge better.

If anything,his position near the top of the great commanders lists - after 2 victories - just shows how lacking Westeros is in "great" military leadership.