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Randyll Tarly is an terrible commander


The Frost Wolf

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These x are overrated threads are always fun.

All the information we have suggests Randyll is a highly respected and very competent commander. Alongside the Blackfish he may be one of the most able subordinate commanders in westeros. I can understand people feeling he is overrated when put in the same category as Robert, Tywin and Robb (the three best generals imho) but this is because you are not comparing like with like; there is much more scope for a great lord to prove his worth in war and strategy than someone who only leads the van of his own lord paramount.

Tarly has an excellent reputation, which we learn about from multiple dependable sources: Kevan and Stannis. 'Soldier' in Kevan's remark was, contrary to Tarly's critics, being used as a synonym for general/commander. The criticisms of his fine victory at the battle of Ashford do not stand to reason imo. Leading just the van he would have been significantly outnumbered by the stormlander army (which owing to the fact many houses there were still royalist may not have large) but he came upon it so swiftly he scattered it from the field. This spelt the end of Robert's southern campaign, his army disintegrated and either returned to the stormlands, or were run down by Jon Connington. In the aftermath of the battle Mace Tyrell won the stormlands back for king Aerys, and Robert ended up with few followers, desperately trying to link up with the northern lords with whom he was allied. That he achieved this was only owing to the prompt action of Ned Stark and Hoster Tully, or else people would have come to see Ashford as the beginning of the end for the rebellion.

In the war of the five kings Tarly was in some ways the architect of the Lannister and Tyrell victory because it was his prompt action that steadied the army encamped at Bitterbridge for Mace Tyrell. Tarly raced back to the foot force before Stannis' own messengers, and ensured the army would not defect by raining down death on the florents who were trying to suborn the army. He likely played a prominent in the impressive logistical feat of gathering the barges and shipping the combined Lannister-Tyrell army down the Blackwater Rush and he led the centre in the battle itself.

He achieved his objectives handsomely at Duskendale, where he was supposed to defeat the northern host outside the town and then push them back towards Ser Gregor, who would fall on them when they retreating, tired and demoralized and finish them off. That he took 'heavy losses' is not necessarily a testimony against his capabilities but rather the determination and zeal of the northern men, eager to wreck havoc in the south as some measure of recompense for the loss of the north (as Roose Bolton suggested).

There are no other men who serve as subordinate commanders to their liege lords and kings who can boast of similar achievements to Randyll Tarly, who played a key and independent role in the two major wars westeros has seen in the last twenty years. No, not even the Blackfish and Ned Stark. Imo he fully deserves his reputation.

Well, this convinced me.

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Yet again with the "just the van". This has been said so many times, it's the blooming Tyrell van, why do some people assume it's so small?

Attributing logistical feats to him with no evidence... It's one thing to say he can command well on the battlefield, but now he can also run campaigns?

Then saying he deserves his reputation more than Ned Stark? :| Come now. As for the Blackfish, well, it's possible they're on the same level, but Tarly has more solo command feats and therefore might be better.

No one is saying he's terrible, not even the OP, but don't rate him so highly please.

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The Tyrell's clearly value him. Tywin, Jaime, and Kevan Lannister think he's a good man to command one host of their armies. Nobody takes him lightly.

He's an aggressive high-tempo commander, but not reckless. Clearly a determined and serious foe who keeps and troops and lands under his command tightly controlled.

So my verdict is: good commander, shitty person.

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Yet again with the "just the van". This has been said so many times, it's the blooming Tyrell van, why do some people assume it's so small?

No one is saying it was tiny but it will have been smaller than Robert's force, especially if, as seems likely, it was all mounted; in which case it could at most be 4-6,000 strong.

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Randyll Tarly's peers? What do they judge him on?

The hype that was spread because he beat Robert?

His pyrrhic victory at Duskendale?

His commanding the van in a battle that was won by surprise & the ghost of Renly?

Just because someone believes something, it doesn't make it true. I'm sure that the contemporaries of British generals in 1770s thought they were all great...

But no one who has faced off against him thinks its hype, whose opinion should we consider when judging the extent of his martial skill?
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No one is saying it was tiny but it will have been smaller than Robert's force, especially if, as seems likely, it was all mounted; in which case it could at most be 4-6,000 strong.

Why only 4-6,000? What was the size of Robb's cavalry force?

We're talking about the Tyrells here, even if it was 'only' 6,000 cavalry, that's a good amount, Robb thought he could take on Tywin on his home turf with near that amount.

But no one who has faced off against him thinks its hype, whose opinion should we consider when judging the extent of his martial skill?

I'm sure that the colonists thought the British generals would be a lot better than they actually were. There are plenty of examples of bad generals having good reputations for no reason.

We should judge his skill based on first hand accounts where possible, we should also look at the numbers and conditions of troops in those battles and so on.

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Why only 4-6,000? What was the size of Robb's cavalry force?

We're talking about the Tyrells here, even if it was 'only' 6,000 cavalry, that's a good amount, Robb thought he could take on Tywin on his home turf with near that amount.

Robb had fewer than 6,000 northern horse but once he added some riverlords to that he had 6,000 cavalry at the WW and in the western campaign.

I say 6,000 for the maximum on the assumption the Tyrells mustered an army of the same size, or smaller, than the one they put at the disposal of Reny, in which case they had about 14,000 horse or so and the majority is unlikely to be in the vanguard.

And I wasn't trying to say Ashford was the battle of al-qadisiya but we have to remember that Tarly took on one of the best generals in the books with a smaller army and won. That's counts for quite a bit.

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Why only 4-6,000? What was the size of Robb's cavalry force?

We're talking about the Tyrells here, even if it was 'only' 6,000 cavalry, that's a good amount, Robb thought he could take on Tywin on his home turf with near that amount.

I'm sure that the colonists thought the British generals would be a lot better than they actually were. There are plenty of examples of bad generals having good reputations for no reason.

We should judge his skill based on first hand accounts where possible, we should also look at the numbers and conditions of troops in those battles and so on.

Who would you put on a list before Tarly? There are a few no doubt, but would you say he's in the top 5-6?
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Why only 4-6,000? What was the size of Robb's cavalry force?

We're talking about the Tyrells here, even if it was 'only' 6,000 cavalry, that's a good amount, Robb thought he could take on Tywin on his home turf with near that amount.

So Robert is marching West, thinking he can take on the Tyrells...and loses to ONLY their Van. How is that not impressive? Why does everyone assume the Stormlanders have so few men and that the Tyrells had 80,000 in that particular host? The fact is, Randyll Tarly crushed Robert's forces and made him flee.

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Robb had fewer than 6,000 northern horse but once he added some riverlords to that he had 6,000 cavalry at the WW and in the western campaign.

I say 6,000 for the maximum on the assumption the Tyrells mustered an army of the same size, or smaller, than the one they put at the disposal of Renly, in which case they had about 14,000 horse or so and the majority is unlikely to be in the vanguard.

Robb had 5,000 at whispering wood, without riverlords. I think it's safe to say that raising good horses in the North is a lot harder than in the Reach, they also have a lot less knights.

I don't see why you'd assume the ratio of infantry to cavalry is the same all around Westeros and I think that the Tyrells always have a large force, above 40k at least.

Who would you put on a list before Tarly? There are a few no doubt, but would you say he's in the top 5-6?

Robb, Tywin, Stannis, Ned at least. With Hoster, Jon Arryn, Blackfish contending for the same spot, maybe even throw Euron in there.

So Robert is marching West, thinking he can take on the Tyrells...and loses to ONLY their Van. How is that not impressive? Why does everyone assume the Stormlanders have so few men and that the Tyrells had 80,000 in that particular host? The fact is, Randyll Tarly crushed Robert's forces and made him flee.

Robert wasn't trying to take on the Tyrells, he was trying to take Ashford & garrison it to secure that area. He was caught off guard by Tarly, his men wouldn't have even been rested.

We assume the Stormlands can't support a large army because the land doesn't suit it, certainly not as much as the Reach does.

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Robert wasn't trying to take on the Tyrells, he was trying to take Ashford & garrison it to secure that area. He was caught off guard by Tarly, his men wouldn't have even been rested.

We assume the Stormlands can't support a large army because the land doesn't suit it, certainly not as much as the Reach does.

Actually, we don't know that. Ashford is in the Reach, so yes, he should be expecting the Reach to come at him there. Randyll showed up early and kicked his ass before the rest could even make it. People make the assumption about the quality of land in the Stormlands, but the Storm Kings were among the most powerful in pre-Aegon Westeros.

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Robb had 5,000 at whispering wood, without riverlords. I think it's safe to say that raising good horses in the North is a lot harder than in the Reach, they also have a lot less knights.

I don't see why you'd assume the ratio of infantry to cavalry is the same all around Westeros and I think that the Tyrells always have a large force, above 40k at least.

We know the Tyrell horse/foot ratio from CoK. Renly has 20,000 horse and 60,000 foot. Lets say 2/5 of that is stormlander and you get 12,000 horse but maybe the Tyrells have more horse proportionally so I upped it to 14,000.

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Robb had 5,000 at whispering wood, without riverlords. I think it's safe to say that raising good horses in the North is a lot harder than in the Reach, they also have a lot less knights.

I don't see why you'd assume the ratio of infantry to cavalry is the same all around Westeros and I think that the Tyrells always have a large force, above 40k at least.

Robb, Tywin, Stannis, Ned at least. With Hoster, Jon Arryn, Blackfish contending for the same spot, maybe even throw Euron in there.

Robert wasn't trying to take on the Tyrells, he was trying to take Ashford & garrison it to secure that area. He was caught off guard by Tarly, his men wouldn't have even been rested.

We assume the Stormlands can't support a large army because the land doesn't suit it, certainly not as much as the Reach does.

I can't argue with that list it would look a lot like mine, but one problem...no Jon Connigton on that list?
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