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Randyll Tarly is an terrible commander


The Frost Wolf

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I don't see why you'd assume the ratio of infantry to cavalry is the same all around Westeros and I think that the Tyrells always have a large force, above 40k at least.

Robb, Tywin, Stannis, Ned at least. With Hoster, Jon Arryn, Blackfish contending for the same spot, maybe even throw Euron in there.

That's a lot of assumptions about the numbers there though, isn't it? Plus, can you justify putting Hoster and Jon Arryn above Tarly, with numbers, seeing as you pointed out that reputation alone is not entirely reliable

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Actually, we don't know that. Ashford is in the Reach, so yes, he should be expecting the Reach to come at him there. Randyll showed up early and kicked his ass before the rest could even make it. People make the assumption about the quality of land in the Stormlands, but the Storm Kings were among the most powerful in pre-Aegon Westeros.

The maps show the Stormlands to be quite mountainous and I believe it was stated somewhere that they can't muster that great an army, though I'm not gonna look through the books to find it.

I believe they held more land pre-Aegon, but who knows?

I can't argue with that list it would look a lot like mine, but one problem...no Jon Connigton on that list?

Just didn't think of him, probably a few I missed out.

That's a lot of assumptions about the numbers there though, isn't it? Plus, can you justify putting Hoster and Jon Arryn above Tarly, with numbers, seeing as you pointed out that reputation alone is not entirely reliable

We know that the Tyrells mustered 70k or more men in the latest war, why would they muster less than half of that to support the Targs?

Hoster & Jon Arryn have a lot of successful battles under their belts and have fought in multiple wars, Jon also taught Ned & Robert, two great commanders in their own right.

They were also not underlings but the main commanders of their forces.

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The maps show the Stormlands to be quite mountainous and I believe it was stated somewhere that they can't muster that great an army, though I'm not gonna look through the books to find it.

I believe they held more land pre-Aegon, but who knows?

Just didn't think of him, probably a few I missed out.

We know that the Tyrells mustered 70k or more men in the latest war, why would they muster less than half of that to support the Targs?

Hoster & Jon Arryn have a lot of successful battles under their belts and have fought in multiple wars, Jon also taught Ned & Robert, two great commanders in their own right.

They were also not underlings but the main commanders of their forces.

That's understandable, but JonCon is a boss.
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The maps show the Stormlands to be quite mountainous and I believe it was stated somewhere that they can't muster that great an army, though I'm not gonna look through the books to find it.

I believe they held more land pre-Aegon, but who knows?

We know that the Tyrells mustered 70k or more men in the latest war, why would they muster less than half of that to support the Targs?

Hoster & Jon Arryn have a lot of successful battles under their belts and have fought in multiple wars, Jon also taught Ned & Robert, two great commanders in their own right.

They were also not underlings but the main commanders of their forces.

They did hold more land (much of the Crownlands belonged to them), but the Stormlands also nearly conquered the Reach during their history.

As for why they wouldn't muster their 70,000 host for the Targaryens, they did send somewhere close to 12,000 men to Kings Landing, and they were at the Trident, and they would need to leave men to defend their own castles considering Robert is coming for them.

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I said why wouldn't they muster at least half, I never said they should've pulled the full force out for the Targs. The Tyrells barely sent any men to the Trident and when did they send 12,000 to KL?

I don't remember that in the rebellion.

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I said why wouldn't they muster at least half, I never said they should've pulled the full force out for the Targs. The Tyrells barely sent any men to the Trident and when did they send 12,000 to KL?

I don't remember that in the rebellion.

Where do the crown's men come from? They have a Dornish host of 8,000 or 10,00, IIRC, but there aren't any Westermen, Valemen, Stormlanders, or Northmen there. There are a couple minor Riverlords, like Darry, and then the Crownlands men (but not all of them, as Aerys still has "thousands" in Kings Landing), so there have to be a good number of Reachmen there.

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Where do the crown's men come from? They have a Dornish host of 8,000 or 10,00, IIRC, but there aren't any Westermen, Valemen, Stormlanders, or Northmen there. There are a couple minor Riverlords, like Darry, and then the Crownlands men (but not all of them, as Aerys still has "thousands" in Kings Landing), so there have to be a good number of Reachmen there.

Lots of Storm Lords joined to Aerys. For example JonCon.

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Where do the crown's men come from? They have a Dornish host of 8,000 or 10,000, IIRC, but there aren't any Westermen, Valemen, Stormlanders, or Northmen there. There are a couple minor Riverlords, like Darry, and then the Crownlands men (but not all of them, as Aerys still has "thousands" in Kings Landing), so there have to be a good number of Reachmen there.

The crown's men come from the Crownlands, it was their entire force. If this force consisted of Reach men, then they wouldn't separate the 'several hundred' Reach levies from their numbers.

Also, there were Vale, Stormland and Riverland loyalist forces.

As we've seen, having thousands in KL is not hard, that's easily the size of their police force if they want it to be.

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The crown's men come from the Crownlands, it was their entire force. If this force consisted of Reach men, then they wouldn't separate the 'several hundred' Reach levies from their numbers.

Also, there were Vale, Stormland and Riverland loyalist forces.

As we've seen, having thousands in KL is not hard, that's easily the size of their police force if they want it to be.

Rhaegar didn't have 30,000 men from the crownlands (not enough men there), the men of the Reach will have played a big role.

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Lots of Storm Lords joined to Aerys. For example JonCon.

And Robert defeated most of them.

The crown's men come from the Crownlands, it was their entire force. If this force consisted of Reach men, then they wouldn't separate the 'several hundred' Reach levies from their numbers.

Also, there were Vale, Stormland and Riverland loyalist forces.

As we've seen, having thousands in KL is not hard, that's easily the size of their police force if they want it to be.

The Crownlands alone cannot raise an army of that size, and the Vale and Stormland Loyalists have been defeated and turned by that point at the Battle of Gulltown and the battle of Summerhall.

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Rhaegar didn't have 30,000 men from the crownlands (not enough men there), the men of the Reach will have played a big role.

The Crownlands alone cannot raise an army of that size, and the Vale and Stormland Loyalists have been defeated and turned by that point at the Battle of Gulltown and the battle of Summerhall.

Nope. I never said they got all 30,000 men from the crownlands, but it's stated that they summoned up everything they could from there, so they really stretched themselves. They also got some men from the Lords of Crackclaw Point and the Narrow Sea. A good amount of them were survivors from the Battle of the Bells (the Vale, Stormland & Riverland loyalists).

It's stated that there were 'several hundred levies from the Reach', if there were any more, then it wouldn't be 'several hundred', it'd be 'a few thousand' or something.

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Tarly has an excellent reputation, which we learn about from multiple dependable sources: Kevan and Stannis. 'Soldier' in Kevan's remark was, contrary to Tarly's critics, being used as a synonym for general/commander. The criticisms of his fine victory at the battle of Ashford do not stand to reason imo. Leading just the van he would have been significantly outnumbered by the stormlander army (which owing to the fact many houses there were still royalist may not have large) but he came upon it so swiftly he scattered it from the field. This spelt the end of Robert's southern campaign, his army disintegrated and either returned to the stormlands, or were run down by Jon Connington. In the aftermath of the battle Mace Tyrell won the stormlands back for king Aerys, and Robert ended up with few followers, desperately trying to link up with the northern lords with whom he was allied. That he achieved this was only owing to the prompt action of Ned Stark and Hoster Tully, or else people would have come to see Ashford as the beginning of the end for the rebellion.

I disagree on two points:

1. Tarly claiming to "scatter the enemy army" is proving his complete lack of understanding of the enemy movement. Robert wanted Ashford to protect the Stormlands while he moves north. When he saw it was a no-go he left, after suffering light casualties in battle against Tarly. Tarly thinks that letting the enemy move north is a good thing. Had Jon Con managed to get Robert, there is no way in hell the rebellion is over. Jon Arryn rose up in rebellion, and Ned's father and brother were murdered. Robert had the best claim to the throne if the Targs are all killed, but it's not a must. If you oust a royal house you still have right of conquest. If Robert dies, in an event that Tarly had no way of knowing, it makes no matter. Tarly basically allows a fourth rebel army to link up with the three that are already in the north, assuming that either Storm's End is more important, or that Tywin, who has been sitting on the sidelines so far would jump at the opportunity to fight four armies, or that Jon Con's force is enough. Tarly choosing not to persue is void of any and all military sense. Period. Full stop.

2. Your depiction of the aftermath of the battle is way worse then it was portrayed by Tyrion, who claims that it was more like an indesisive skirmish. Mace did not win the Stormlands for Aerys, he sieged SE for a year. The fighting force that went with Robert faught on the Trident.

In the war of the five kings Tarly was in some ways the architect of the Lannister and Tyrell victory because it was his prompt action that steadied the army encamped at Bitterbridge for Mace Tyrell. Tarly raced back to the foot force before Stannis' own messengers, and ensured the army would not defect by raining down death on the florents who were trying to suborn the army. He likely played a prominent role in the impressive logistical feat of gathering the barges and shipping the combined Lannister-Tyrell army down the Blackwater Rush and he led the centre in the battle itself.

And now you just went overboard. "architect of the Lannister and Tyrell victory"? He gets upset that Renly died, and can't stand the thought of people to join Stannis, well before knowing that there is to be an alliance and the Tyrells will still fight Stannis. He murders Florent men, and kidnaps messangers. Other then the fact that he is commiting war crimes, this goes on while Tyrell bannermen are as clueless as him as to the near future plans of Mace, and some start marching for home. Mace is the one mentioned as gathering barges, but you claim it was Tarly with zero evidence from the books. LF breaks a deal with mace, without Tywin knowing, and based on the action of Tyrion. But Tarly is is the architect, sure.

And he lead the center in the Blackwater, where he saw little to no action because it was Garlan who lead the Van, Garlan who wore Renly's armor, thus bringing half of Stannis's force back to thier side, and it was Garlan who won the bloody battle. Not Tyrion, not Tywin, not wildfire, not LF, and definatly not Tarly.

He achieved his objectives handsomely at Duskendale, where he was supposed to defeat the northern host outside the town and then push them back towards Ser Gregor, who would fall on them when they retreating, tired and demoralized and finish them off. That he took 'heavy losses' is not necessarily a testimony against his capabilities but rather the determination and zeal of the northern men, eager to wreck havoc in the south as some measure of recompense for the loss of the north (as Roose Bolton suggested).

Duskendale is a clusterfuckl if you look at how it should have went. He has an army, about half, probably less, of the Reach's forces. He needs to neutrelize 3,000 Northeners form Robb's army, but instead of properly assmebeling his force in a basic "L" ambush, where his larger force combined with Gregor's is likely to drive the Northeners to surrender and avoid a bloodbath, , he stops them cold in Duskendale, then when they retreat they encounter Gregor. Insteads of getting 3,000 POW's, he has to march at them and destroy them near Duskendale. His forces should have been better positioned to deny the Northener's hope of retreating from the get-go and accept thier surrender.

There are no other men who serve as subordinate commanders to their liege lords and kings who can boast of similar achievements to Randyll Tarly, who played a key and independent role in the two major wars westeros has seen in the last twenty years. No, not even the Blackfish and Ned Stark. Imo he fully deserves his reputation.

We don't know what the Blackfish did in RR, and Ned died before the WOT5K, so no, they cannot boast of doing more in both wars. I can bring thier deeds in either war, but I would prefer to use Gregor Clegane.

In RR, Gregor scaled Maegor's holdfast, and ensured the stability of the his liege lord's reign by killing the Royal family that was left. In WOT5K, Gregor's raids ensured Tywin's forces would be facing smaller and more scattered forces by harasing the Riverlands, ensuring a quick victory in the Riverlands campaign. He properly ambushes Beric's force, destorying it and killing him (the first time). In the Battle of the Green fork he leads the van into what should have been a suicide mission and leads to a victory that included a loss of a third of the North's foot. He is later used to supply the Lannister army and ravage the Riverlands, two war-goals which he fulfills. After the battle of the camp, when Edmure releases his forces and the Darry castle is retaken from the Lannisters, Gregor recaptures the castle and sacks it, ensuring both a safe passage from HH to KL, and with the destruction of the Darry male line, leaves the castle for Lancel to marry his way into possetion, adding to the power of the Lannister family. Gregor, like Tarly, the Freys, and anyone else who tried, fails to eliminate the BWB, mainly due to the fact that as of that point, Beric keeps being resurected, and every battle and sacking in the war leaves more broken men and the likes to join them. At the battle of the fords he trys and almost manages to break through, but fails (unless we go by your theory and he manges to invest Edmure's forces for Tywin to attack freely elsewhere). At Duskendale Gregor manages what Tarly failed, to block the Northern army in a classic battle of annihlation. He kills 2,000 more Northeners and captures Wylis Manderly in the battle of the Ruby ford, destorying even more of the North's forces, and gaining a valuable hostage. He later retakes HH from Vargo, and even wins the trial by battle for Cersie.

So yeah, I don't think I need to go far to find someone who did more for thier lord and king then Tarly.

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Nope. I never said they got all 30,000 men from the crownlands, but it's stated that they summoned up everything they could from there, so they really stretched themselves. They also got some men from the Lords of Crackclaw Point and the Narrow Sea. A good amount of them were survivors from the Battle of the Bells (the Vale, Stormland & Riverland loyalists).

It's stated that there were 'several hundred levies from the Reach', if there were any more, then it wouldn't be 'several hundred', it'd be 'a few thousand' or something.

Mace didn't just send Rhaegar a few hundred men out of the thousands he had.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1043/

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I disagree on two points:

1. Tarly claiming to "scatter the enemy army" is proving his complete lack of understanding of the enemy movement. Robert wanted Ashford to protect the Stormlands while he moves north. When he saw it was a no-go he left, after suffering light casualties in battle against Tarly. Tarly thinks that letting the enemy move north is a good thing ... Tarly choosing not to persue is void of any and all military sense. Period. Full stop.

I've seen you use this argument before and it's an absolute stinker imho, because it doesn't account for the circumstances in which Robert was nearly found by the royalist forces in Stony Sept: almost alone and bereft of his men. Unless there was another major encounter in the war, of which we have as yet heard nothing (which is very unlikely), it was in the aftermath of Ashford that Robert's achievement in the stormlands fell apart. He was, we suspect, hoping to rally forces there, ensure the region's defence, and then head to a union with the other rebel forces (although the plan may not have been so detailed). He failed in both of these objectives; we know the Stormlands were invaded, the Tyrells sweeping through the whole country and receiving the submission of all, saving Stannis' 500 men in SE.

The stormlanders army, as I said, seems to have fallen apart, either deserting or falling back to defend their own lands and castles when Robert proved unable to construct a reasonable defence for their property at Ashford. The actual tactical achievement may have been indecisive, but Tarly's prompt action ensured the Stormlands would fall prey to the Tyrell armies and the northern rebels would receive little to no support from Robert's southern domain. Tarly had a good understanding of the dynamics of that campaign because he realised that Robert's thrust at Ashford was part of an attempt to secure defensible borders, keeps and castles in the foe's rear in preparation for a move north. By thwarting this plan while Mace was lagging Tarly met the objective of knocking the Baratheon troops out of the war. Edit: Indeed, given what we know of Robert Baratheon's style of command (lightning strikes and forced marches to secure strategic and operational assets) Tarly was probably the only one able to oppose him before he achieved a defensible position or secured Ashford, owing to him getting into location more swiftly than Mace was expecting.

2. Your depiction of the aftermath of the battle is way worse then it was portrayed by Tyrion, who claims that it was more like an indesisive skirmish. Mace did not win the Stormlands for Aerys, he sieged SE for a year. The fighting force that went with Robert faught on the Trident.

Where was it at Stony Sept?

And now you just went overboard. "architect of the Lannister and Tyrell victory"? He gets upset that Renly died, and can't stand the thought of people to join Stannis, well before knowing that there is to be an alliance and the Tyrells will still fight Stannis. He murders Florent men, and kidnaps messangers. Other then the fact that he is commiting war crimes, this goes on while Tyrell bannermen are as clueless as him as to the near future plans of Mace, and some start marching for home. Mace is the one mentioned as gathering barges, but you claim it was Tarly with zero evidence from the books. LF breaks a deal with mace, without Tywin knowing, and based on the action of Tyrion. But Tarly is is the architect, sure.

And he lead the center in the Blackwater, where he saw little to no action because it was Garlan who lead the Van, Garlan who wore Renly's armor, thus bringing half of Stannis's force back to thier side, and it was Garlan who won the bloody battle. Not Tyrion, not Tywin, not wildfire, not LF, and definatly not Tarly.

Tarly was one of the architects of king Joffrey's victory. The army at Bitterbridge was riven with internal dissent owing to the fact most of its lords and knights were riding with Stannis. Much of the foot wasn't even from the Reach and as such owed no loyalty to Mace. Stannis sent messengers to work with his supporters and gain control of the army; a plan that would have won him the iron throne if it succeeded. It was Tarly who thwarted it, preserving his liege lord's freedom of action and paving the way for Tywin and Mace to bring crushing force to bear against Stannis.

Duskendale is a clusterfuckl if you look at how it should have went. He has an army, about half, probably less, of the Reach's forces. He needs to neutrelize 3,000 Northeners form Robb's army, but instead of properly assmebeling his force in a basic "L" ambush, where his larger force combined with Gregor's is likely to drive the Northeners to surrender and avoid a bloodbath, , he stops them cold in Duskendale, then when they retreat they encounter Gregor. Insteads of getting 3,000 POW's, he has to march at them and destroy them near Duskendale. His forces should have been better positioned to deny the Northener's hope of retreating from the get-go and accept thier surrender.

He fights and routs the foe at Duskendale, perhaps taking a hundred casualties and forcing the broken and demoralized Starks to retreat where Gregor, waiting some distance in their rear destroys them without difficulty. The plan went off almost perfectly; I remain unsure what your issue with it is.

In RR, Gregor scaled Maegor's holdfast, and ensured the stability of the his liege lord's reign by killing the Royal family that was left. In WOT5K, Gregor's raids ensured Tywin's forces would be facing smaller and more scattered forces by harasing the Riverlands, ensuring a quick victory in the Riverlands campaign. He properly ambushes Beric's force, destorying it and killing him (the first time). In the Battle of the Green fork he leads the van into what should have been a suicide mission and leads to a victory that included a loss of a third of the North's foot. He is later used to supply the Lannister army and ravage the Riverlands, two war-goals which he fulfills. After the battle of the camp, when Edmure releases his forces and the Darry castle is retaken from the Lannisters, Gregor recaptures the castle and sacks it, ensuring both a safe passage from HH to KL, and with the destruction of the Darry male line, leaves the castle for Lancel to marry his way into possetion, adding to the power of the Lannister family. Gregor, like Tarly, the Freys, and anyone else who tried, fails to eliminate the BWB, mainly due to the fact that as of that point, Beric keeps being resurected, and every battle and sacking in the war leaves more broken men and the likes to join them. At the battle of the fords he trys and almost manages to break through, but fails (unless we go by your theory and he manges to invest Edmure's forces for Tywin to attack freely elsewhere). At Duskendale Gregor manages what Tarly failed, to block the Northern army in a classic battle of annihlation. He kills 2,000 more Northeners and captures Wylis Manderly in the battle of the Ruby ford, destorying even more of the North's forces, and gaining a valuable hostage. He later retakes HH from Vargo, and even wins the trial by battle for Cersie.

So yeah, I don't think I need to go far to find someone who did more for thier lord and king then Tarly.

Gregor gets around I guess; he is a good thug. He has never displayed the competence that Tarly was when given an independent command and his liege has no regard for his skill, reserving him for suicide missions and baby murdering. In any case, he certainly didn't succeed where Tarly failed at Duskendale, they both executed their roles in the Tywin-Roose plan to perfection.

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Nope. I never said they got all 30,000 men from the crownlands, but it's stated that they summoned up everything they could from there, so they really stretched themselves. They also got some men from the Lords of Crackclaw Point and the Narrow Sea. A good amount of them were survivors from the Battle of the Bells (the Vale, Stormland & Riverland loyalists).

It's stated that there were 'several hundred levies from the Reach', if there were any more, then it wouldn't be 'several hundred', it'd be 'a few thousand' or something.

Yes, but those are all Crownlands men. The fact is, they need at least 8-12,000 Reachmen for RHaegar's numbers to make sense.

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Why only 4-6,000? What was the size of Robb's cavalry force?

We're talking about the Tyrells here, even if it was 'only' 6,000 cavalry, that's a good amount, Robb thought he could take on Tywin on his home turf with near that amount.

I'm sure that the colonists thought the British generals would be a lot better than they actually were. There are plenty of examples of bad generals having good reputations for no reason.

We should judge his skill based on first hand accounts where possible, we should also look at the numbers and conditions of troops in those battles and so on.

You are saying that Tarly is overhyped because all his victories were in battles were he had massive advantage (in numbers or otherwise) and thus even an incompetent commander would win. That could be a fair point but how come all Tarly's peers that praise him for his martial skills somehow failed to realise it while you and the OP did? They probably know much more about who had how many soldier than you do, don't you think?

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I disagree on two points:

1. Tarly claiming to "scatter the enemy army" is proving his complete lack of understanding of the enemy movement. Robert wanted Ashford to protect the Stormlands while he moves north. When he saw it was a no-go he left, after suffering light casualties in battle against Tarly. Tarly thinks that letting the enemy move north is a good thing. Had Jon Con managed to get Robert, there is no way in hell the rebellion is over. Jon Arryn rose up in rebellion, and Ned's father and brother were murdered. Robert had the best claim to the throne if the Targs are all killed, but it's not a must. If you oust a royal house you still have right of conquest. If Robert dies, in an event that Tarly had no way of knowing, it makes no matter. Tarly basically allows a fourth rebel army to link up with the three that are already in the north, assuming that either Storm's End is more important, or that Tywin, who has been sitting on the sidelines so far would jump at the opportunity to fight four armies, or that Jon Con's force is enough. Tarly choosing not to persue is void of any and all military sense. Period. Full stop.

Actually, at Stoney Sept, Robert doesn't have an army, just some knights that he managed to break through with. If Ned hadn't been a virgin when he bedded Cat and had taken a little longer, Robert dies there and Tarly is an absolute hero.

2. Your depiction of the aftermath of the battle is way worse then it was portrayed by Tyrion, who claims that it was more like an indesisive skirmish. Mace did not win the Stormlands for Aerys, he sieged SE for a year. The fighting force that went with Robert faught on the Trident.

And now you just went overboard. "architect of the Lannister and Tyrell victory"? He gets upset that Renly died, and can't stand the thought of people to join Stannis, well before knowing that there is to be an alliance and the Tyrells will still fight Stannis. He murders Florent men, and kidnaps messangers. Other then the fact that he is commiting war crimes, this goes on while Tyrell bannermen are as clueless as him as to the near future plans of Mace, and some start marching for home. Mace is the one mentioned as gathering barges, but you claim it was Tarly with zero evidence from the books. LF breaks a deal with mace, without Tywin knowing, and based on the action of Tyrion. But Tarly is is the architect, sure.

And he lead the center in the Blackwater, where he saw little to no action because it was Garlan who lead the Van, Garlan who wore Renly's armor, thus bringing half of Stannis's force back to thier side, and it was Garlan who won the bloody battle. Not Tyrion, not Tywin, not wildfire, not LF, and definatly not Tarly.

Duskendale is a clusterfuckl if you look at how it should have went. He has an army, about half, probably less, of the Reach's forces. He needs to neutrelize 3,000 Northeners form Robb's army, but instead of properly assmebeling his force in a basic "L" ambush, where his larger force combined with Gregor's is likely to drive the Northeners to surrender and avoid a bloodbath, , he stops them cold in Duskendale, then when they retreat they encounter Gregor. Insteads of getting 3,000 POW's, he has to march at them and destroy them near Duskendale. His forces should have been better positioned to deny the Northener's hope of retreating from the get-go and accept thier surrender.

We don't know what the Blackfish did in RR, and Ned died before the WOT5K, so no, they cannot boast of doing more in both wars. I can bring thier deeds in either war, but I would prefer to use Gregor Clegane.

In RR, Gregor scaled Maegor's holdfast, and ensured the stability of the his liege lord's reign by killing the Royal family that was left. In WOT5K, Gregor's raids ensured Tywin's forces would be facing smaller and more scattered forces by harasing the Riverlands, ensuring a quick victory in the Riverlands campaign. He properly ambushes Beric's force, destorying it and killing him (the first time). In the Battle of the Green fork he leads the van into what should have been a suicide mission and leads to a victory that included a loss of a third of the North's foot. He is later used to supply the Lannister army and ravage the Riverlands, two war-goals which he fulfills. After the battle of the camp, when Edmure releases his forces and the Darry castle is retaken from the Lannisters, Gregor recaptures the castle and sacks it, ensuring both a safe passage from HH to KL, and with the destruction of the Darry male line, leaves the castle for Lancel to marry his way into possetion, adding to the power of the Lannister family. Gregor, like Tarly, the Freys, and anyone else who tried, fails to eliminate the BWB, mainly due to the fact that as of that point, Beric keeps being resurected, and every battle and sacking in the war leaves more broken men and the likes to join them. At the battle of the fords he trys and almost manages to break through, but fails (unless we go by your theory and he manges to invest Edmure's forces for Tywin to attack freely elsewhere). At Duskendale Gregor manages what Tarly failed, to block the Northern army in a classic battle of annihlation. He kills 2,000 more Northeners and captures Wylis Manderly in the battle of the Ruby ford, destorying even more of the North's forces, and gaining a valuable hostage. He later retakes HH from Vargo, and even wins the trial by battle for Cersie.

So yeah, I don't think I need to go far to find someone who did more for thier lord and king then Tarly.

Is this all your second point, cuz its totally tldr

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