Arkantos Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Why of course. That was one of the arguments I was going to use ...He might've also gave Randyll some impressive, non-debatable, feats too, with the necessary detail to make a proper decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ben Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 He does, he directly tells us from multiple POV's that he's capable and respected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkantos Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 He does, he directly tells us from multiple POV's that he's capable and respected.GRRM also repeatedly points out that these are POVs, not omniscient beings. What people say is warped by bias and their own agendas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 GRRM also repeatedly points out that these are POVs, not omniscient beings. What people say is warped by bias and their own agendas.Why do you believe the really weak evidence that Ned had any above average military ability then ...Robert is generous in his praise and all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkantos Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Why do you believe the really weak evidence that Ned had any above average military ability then ...Because he taught Robb & Jon and they were good. His personality too. I just like Ned, feel free to start a thread saying he's a terrible commander with some evidence, if you feel like making that claim.Robert is generous in his praise and all.Really? I don't remember seeing him praise people much at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Because he taught Robb & Jon and they were good. His personality too. I just like Ned, feel free to start a thread saying he's a terrible ludicrously overrated commander with some evidence, if you feel like making that claim.Somebody did. Imho they did an awesome job.Really? I don't remember seeing him praise people much at all.Sure somebody said this .. maybe even GrrM. Forgotten who at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkantos Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Somebody did.http://asoiaf.wester...ttle-commander/Imho they did an awesome job.Still think he's better than Randyll. Robert clearly thought Ned was the best man he had to take KL and relieve Storms End ASAP, otherwise he would've gave the command to Hoster, Jon or someone else.It's not like I'm calling Ned 'Napoleon' or anything of the sort, I just think he's pretty darn good.Sure somebody said this .. maybe even GrrM. Forgotten who at the moment.Maybe we should ignore that bit then, since I assume neither of us can be arsed searching the entire series for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naathi Prince Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Ned had to get south fast, it's possible that like Robb, he did not take his full force. Huster had several battles, like Arryn, and like Arryn, not all of his bannermen came to the Trident. The loyalist's forces list houses from the Vale and the Riverlands as well. That's not even counting Frey with his 4,000 men not showing up untill after the battle is won.That's OK, I'm probably overly cranky because I'm sick and I have a paper I need to finish by Tuesday but I can't get around to. I'll try and make shorter posts so it can be easier to read but if there is a point to be made I rather make it properly and not just too open.I think most of the Vale loyalists would have turned their cloaks by now, like the Corbrays and Graftons. They fought Jon at Gulltown and lost and had to swear allegiance to Robert. I doubt there were more than 3,000 men from the Vale at the trident. There were loyalist Riverlords, but I think the only "main" ones were the Mootons and Darrys. So only a few thousand Riverlords as well. No matter how you slice it, there has to be a significant forces from the Reach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naathi Prince Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 As for evidence, I take the word of Kevan Lannister. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkantos Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 As for evidence, I take the word of Kevan Lannister.Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naathi Prince Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Why?He's known as competent and he's a good judge of character. Someone like Kevan Lannister would know how to evaluate Lords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkantos Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 He's known as competent and he's a good judge of character. Someone like Kevan Lannister would know how to evaluate Lords.He'd also know how to lie & embellish to get what he wants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naathi Prince Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 He'd also know how to lie & embellish to get what he wants.Who is he lying to in his own mind? What would be the point? Its not like he has a reason to like Tarly for emotional reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkantos Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Who is he lying to in his own mind? What would be the point? Its not like he has a reason to like Tarly for emotional reasons.People often repeat and believe their own lies to reassure themselves that they made the right decision.Someone could easily have lied to him or done a bit of embellishing too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 People often repeat and believe their own lies to reassure themselves that they made the right decision.Someone could easily have lied to him or done a bit of embellishing too.This is being taken to extremes. It's fine to think you are being given unreliable information when you actually have a clue in the text as to that being the case. You're, on the other hand, just coming up with a specious reason to distrust Kevan because you're not overly keen on Randyll 'only the van' Tarly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naathi Prince Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 People often repeat and believe their own lies to reassure themselves that they made the right decision.Someone could easily have lied to him or done a bit of embellishing too.See, now you are getting into the type of logic that strips all meaning from the text entirely. I understand that these are POVs, but in general, people do see things accurately, and its not like Kevan is the only one. What clinches it for me is the behavior of his men at Maidenpool. They would rather be dicing and whoring, but Randyll puts them to work? He sounds like my Puritan mother turned into an extremely macho baron, with the whole idle hands are the devils workshop mentality. I can't imagine a more effective general than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkantos Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 This is being taken to extremes. It's fine to think you are being given unreliable information when you actually have a clue in the text as to that being the case. You're, on the other hand, just coming up with a specious reason to distrust Kevan because you're not overly keen on Randyll 'only the van' Tarly.People's opinions of others are rarely 100% correct, I don't know why people think Kevan is a supreme judge of character and ability.Ever heard of when people are surprised that their friend is a rapist? They thought he was such a good guy, everyone told them he was, but he wasn't.It's been stated before in this thread why he's overrated and his victories aren't that impressive, that's why I don't trust people's assertions that he's the 'best soldier in the realm'.See, now you are getting into the type of logic that strips all meaning from the text entirely. I understand that these are POVs, but in general, people do see things accurately, and its not like Kevan is the only one. What clinches it for me is the behavior of his men at Maidenpool. They would rather be dicing and whoring, but Randyll puts them to work? He sounds like my Puritan mother turned into an extremely macho baron, with the whole idle hands are the devils workshop mentality. I can't imagine a more effective general than that.In general, people don't see things accurately. The only person you'll ever know well is yourself, and even then you won't know your own true limits, people will always surprise you.Just because Kevan isn't the only one, it doesn't make it true, plenty of people can hear from the same sources that Randyll is great, that doesn't mean those sources are accurate.Putting the men to work doesn't attest to his being great, it just shows that his men respect/fear him and he knows one or two things like "idle men turn into undisciplined men" or w/e he says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naathi Prince Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 People's opinions of others are rarely 100% correct, I don't know why people think Kevan is a supreme judge of character and ability.Ever heard of when people are surprised that their friend is a rapist? They thought he was such a good guy, everyone told them he was, but he wasn't.It's been stated before in this thread why he's overrated and his victories aren't that impressive, that's why I don't trust people's assertions that he's the 'best soldier in the realm'.In general, people don't see things accurately. The only person you'll ever know well is yourself, and even then you won't know your own true limits, people will always surprise you.Just because Kevan isn't the only one, it doesn't make it true, plenty of people can hear from the same sources that Randyll is great, that doesn't mean those sources are accurate.Putting the men to work doesn't attest to his being great, it just shows that his men respect/fear him and he knows one or two things like "idle men turn into undisciplined men" or w/e he says.Sure, but when you have the sources saying he's a good soldier and you see the effects of his being a good soldier in the field, then its easy to deduce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danm_999 Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Ever heard of when people are surprised that their friend is a rapist? They thought he was such a good guy, everyone told them he was, but he wasn't.How asinine is this thread to become? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Éadaoin Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 How asinine is this thread to become?It has leagues to go.eta: though to be fair, I have not read through this thread. St. Patty's Day is getting to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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