Randyll Tarly is an terrible commander

[DExit]

Did not read through the 13 pages, but Robert's victory in the battle(s) of summerhall resulted in the losing troops joining him, so his numbers may have swelled. They would still have been tired though. And as pointed above, a van certainly does not have 15,000 troops.

This is what bothers me about the whole timeline of sumerhal---> ashford: Stan talks of it in one of the chapters about him: he says that he and Robert were watching the losers of Summerhal trowing axes in the yard at Storm's End. Stan tells Robert to behead them, he doesn't. I'm therefore not sure if sumerhal and ashford were close in a time period. It seems strange btw, 'hmm, just won my lords back, men and horse exhausted... whatever, nightmarch to ashford, yolo'. If Stan tells the truth and I am right he actually means the location to be Storm's End, it would be an even stranger timeline.

Too much weight is put into his victory over Robert. Tyrion shrugged it off as if it meant nothing. This is part of the reason I want to know more about the rebellion. We dont know whether Tarly outmanuevered Robert, we dont know if he won his victory through attrition, we dont know the circumstances.

Tyrion wasn't even born then and it could well mean nothing in the term of the total war and still be a great victory.

[A Man Has Said]

Tarly seems to have been portrayed as doing very well when he was sent to Duskendale in ASoS, and he's portrayed in a Brienne chapter of AFfC as acting as an able governor after quelling the rebellions in the region. (ETA: after also taking Maidenpool, which becomes his temporary seat of power.)

So hanging your whole argument on the idea that his victory over Robert is the sole basis for his reputation just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

[Tyrell_like_Squirrel]

The fact that everyone in the books praises him as a good commander pretty much closes the argument. Also the fact that this thread is labeled "Randyll Tarly is an terrible commander" give me no respect for the poster.

[Nyrhex]

The fact that everyone in the books praises him as a good commander pretty much closes the argument. Also the fact that this thread is labeled "Randyll Tarly is an terrible commander" give me no respect for the poster.

The fact that, as is constantly being pointed out in oh so many threads and by the writer of the books himself, charachters can be wrong, pretty much opened the argument. Also, you do not earn our (the readers of your post) respect by saying "commander" instead of "soldier" (as Tarly is refered to as a fine soldier), or by correcting someone's typo with a post containing poor English (I now hope I did not fall in the same hole, but I never presumed to have perfect English. It isn't even the second language in my country).

[Naathi Prince]

It's almost as if this idiot^ just really wanted to prove this guy right :laugh:

please, don't call me an idiot. I didn't start a thread specifically to challenge something that the author of the books has written pretty clearly into the story.

[Batman]

Tyrion wasn't even born then and it could well mean nothing in the term of the total war and still be a great victory.

So a person needs to be at the battlefield to know whether the victory meant something? Current military leaders are capable of understanding, learning and judging the importance of the battles fought by Napoleon, Alexander and Frederick the Great. Tyrion is a reader and would have read the accounts of the battle.

It could be or it could be that Roberts forces were not breaking through quickly enough and rather than face the oncoming army he decided to pull back. Like I said, we dont know.

[Batman]

It's almost as if this idiot^ just really wanted to prove this guy right :laugh:

Getting people to acknowledge that you were right is the tricky part.

[BreastplateWithNipples]

No other thread like this as far as I've searched.

Randyll Tarly is constantly noted as one of the best commanders in Westeros, whenever a thread about commanders and leaders of the realm comes into question, this guy always makes the list. Not only that, he's always considered one of the best. But once you cut through the illusion that's built around him and actually consider the facts, his glowing reputation isn't so bright. On the contrary, he actually seems to be all talk and no game. Here's the facts:

[...]

So, do you concur? What's your opinion?

ASOIAF isn't history, it's just a novel. The story is what it is, GRRM wrote it. There's no hidden facts to be discovered by studying the "sources" unless by "facts" you mean story twists / reveals and you mean that you think can anticipate some of them.

If GRRM makes everybody say "Randyll Tarly is an excellent commander", and you're not given any obvious clues to the contrary, odds are, GRRM means just that and isn't going to reveal the contrary to be true. We met Randyll a couple of times in the story and his appearance as seen by Brienne fits the reputation. Stern, martial, serious. Sure you can go and interprete some details to say the contrary but again you're not looking at historical documents, you're looking at a novel :D

[The Frost Wolf]

ASOIAF isn't history, it's just a novel. The story is what it is, GRRM wrote it. There's no hidden facts to be discovered by studying the "sources" unless by "facts" you mean story twists / reveals and you mean that you think can anticipate some of them.

If GRRM makes everybody say "Randyll Tarly is an excellent commander", and you're not given any obvious clues to the contrary, odds are, GRRM means just that and isn't going to reveal the contrary to be true. We met Randyll a couple of times in the story and his appearance as seen by Brienne fits the reputation. Stern, martial, serious. Sure you can go and interprete some details to say the contrary but again you're not looking at historical documents, you're looking at a novel :D

Everything we see in ASOIAF is from someone's perspective. We are, as readers, at the mercy of their feelings and emotions. So, clearly, the information that they give will not be entirely reliable. Especially considering that there are characters who are bias towards one or another, and this is what I am trying to point out with Randyll Tarly. His "victories" don't add up to much once you look at the results only, but if you listen to all the hype and the amount of times it's written that he is a "great commander", then yeah, you will be inclined to believe it. Perhaps I am overstating it though, and like I said beforehand, he is more overrated than terrible, my mistake.

[The Frost Wolf]

please, don't call me an idiot. I didn't start a thread specifically to challenge something that the author of the books has written pretty clearly into the story.

Considering the fact that instead of discussing with me or others on this thread about your opinion and why you dispute me, you decided to simply dismiss it outright and make a joke of my thread that I spent some time on. So yes, if you will not act mature and discuss then I will call you an idiot.

[The Frost Wolf]

The fact that everyone in the books praises him as a good commander pretty much closes the argument. Also the fact that this thread is labeled "Randyll Tarly is an terrible commander" give me no respect for the poster.

Hi! Your argument is something I discussed, so you're simply trying to dismiss my thread without actually saying anything, nice try! But next time you should really argue and discuss, that's what forums are for. And you must have no respect for the majority of people, cause if you haven't noticed, mistakes are fucking everywhere! Not everyone can be perfect like you :)

[The Frost Wolf]

Tarly seems to have been portrayed as doing very well when he was sent to Duskendale in ASoS, and he's portrayed in a Brienne chapter of AFfC as acting as an able governor after quelling the rebellions in the region. (ETA: after also taking Maidenpool, which becomes his temporary seat of power.)

So hanging your whole argument on the idea that his victory over Robert is the sole basis for his reputation just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Running Maidenpool briefly = not commanding.

I'm referring to him as a military commander. Considering that in Duskendale his forces were larger, had the element of surprise and were (most likely) mounted, he should of destroyed the Northerners easy. But he had heavy losses AND some Northerners escaped. Clegane had to clean up his mess. That doesn't sound like good commanding to me.

[Manderlay]

Running Maidenpool briefly = not commanding.

I'm referring to him as a military commander. Considering that in Duskendale his forces were larger, had the element of surprise and were (most likely) mounted, he should of destroyed the Northerners easy. But he had heavy losses AND some Northerners escaped. Clegane had to clean up his mess. That doesn't sound like good commanding to me.

I don't think Randall Tarly's forces were much larger than Glover and Tallhart, they were even and Clegane was waiting for Tarly to set a trap for the Northeners, when a force is cornered and have no escape there are bound to be losses and you are judging Tarly by one battle, Robert Baratheon was never defeated except by Tarly, Robert won the IT against all odds, actually they were incredible odds, and he did it without the help of the main Tyrell force, that's saying something about Tarly, he is hard man and Tywin Lannister once thought highly of Tarly and so did Kevan Lannister. Usually it was always Tarly who led the vanguard. Maidenpool was a mess with no security for the people if they were attacked, Randall Tarly started fixing the gates, stables ...walls etc. from which we can assume he is a battle commander as he saw to its defences and made the town secure. A military commander also has to do that from time to time, like garrison a castle and see to its defences, it wasn't just governance.

[Master of Laws]

Interesting to note that in-universe, Randyll Tarly is regarded as underrated due to the fact that Mace Tyrell constantly steals his spotlight and makes Tarly's achievements his own. Kevan also thinks that Tarly's the true power behind the Reach military. Tarly might be overrated by his fans but I think he's portrayed to be the opposite in the story.

[The Frost Wolf]

I don't think Randall Tarly's forces were much larger than Glover and Tallhart, they were even and Clegane was waiting for Tarly to set a trap for the Northeners, when a force is cornered and have no escape there are bound to be losses and you are judging Tarly by one battle, Robert Baratheon was never defeated except by Tarly, Robert won the IT against all odds, actually they were incredible odds, and he did it without the help of the main Tyrell force, that's saying something about Tarly, he is hard man and Tywin Lannister once thought highly of Tarly and so did Kevan Lannister. Usually it was always Tarly who led the vanguard. Maidenpool was a mess with no security for the people if they were attacked, Randall Tarly started fixing the gates, stables ...walls etc. from which we can assume he is a battle commander as he saw to its defences and made the town secure. A military commander also has to do that from time to time, like garrison a castle and see to its defences, it wasn't just governance.

The governance of a town and simply rebuilding the gates and stables so you can defend it in the case of an attack is just logical. You're not going to just leave it and let yourself be attacked if bandits decide to raid it again. That is governing not commanding.

The forces of Randyll at Duskendale are unknown, but considering that the plan was devised by Roose Bolton, a cold and calculating man, you would think he gave the Lannisters an estimate of how many men Tallhart/Glover had with them. So it's safe to say that his mixed Lannister/Tyrell force had a large force. Tywin had 500 knights at the Green Fork, the Tyrells have a huge mounted force, plus any forces/freeriders still left in King's Landing. Randyll should have smashed them.

His victory over Robert was NOTHING. I explained this in the OP, Robert had already won three battles at Summerhall, his forces were bloodied, battered and depleted when he ran into Randyll. And again, Randyll didn't follow through, Robert escaped! He could've ended the rebellion in one swoop. (Read the OP for the rest, I don't want to re-type it all)

[Starfell]

If your point is that we don't have enough evidence to say he's a good commander, then surely we don't have enough to say he's a poor one? Seeing as all of the little evidence we do have falls on the "good commander" side of the equation

[BloodyGoatHoat]

IIRC He is dubbed by Kevan Lannister as the finest soldier is Westeros. This is imo a loaded compliment. A great soldier is not necessarily a great commandor or a great lord. Great soldiers are well trained and intelligent enough, but they know their place.

Tarly is glorified middle management.

[Wales338]

Your entire argument is based on assumptions. You're entire argument that Tarly is a bad commander rests on assumptions you are making. When people do provide you an proof or arguments that he is not bad commander you completely ignore them. Why would you start a thread for discussion if you are going to completely ignoring anything you don't agree with?

[Tyrell_like_Squirrel]

Hi! Your argument is something I discussed, so you're simply trying to dismiss my thread without actually saying anything, nice try! But next time you should really argue and discuss, that's what forums are for. And you must have no respect for the majority of people, cause if you haven't noticed, mistakes are fucking everywhere! Not everyone can be perfect like you :)

Look, I'm normally not a grammar nazi, but you post a controversial topic which you know will get a lot of responses and generate debate, and you can't even be bothered to check your grammar? It just shows laziness, especially cause the forums are equipped with a spell check. Didn't say I was perfect, I just get tired of these "This person isn't actually this, blah, blah, blah" threads.

Several different POV characters, including Ned, Davos, and Kevan, who are men generally accepted as good and honorable, refer to Tarly as, at the very least efficient and the real victor over Robert. Almost everyone who mentions him brings up his skills as a soldier and commander. What gives you the indication that they're all wrong? It's almost the only description anyone ever gives about him, besides Sam's child abuse stories. What would be the point of setting up everything around this minor character to be a lie? It would be one thing if you said that his skills could be overrated, or that he might be overconfident in his own abilities. But you say he is a "terrible commander" which is a pretty harsh indictment, so you're going to have to really back it up.

The reason I was condescending to your thread is I really don't see what you're getting at. I'm sorry for being rude. Prove to me, besides your own personal doubts, that Tarly is terrible at the one thing everyone says he's good at.

[anon76returns]

The governance of a town and simply rebuilding the gates and stables so you can defend it in the case of an attack is just logical. You're not going to just leave it and let yourself be attacked if bandits decide to raid it again. That is governing not commanding.

No, Tarlly was leading a military occupation and restoration to a devastated area. The fact that what he did was logical has nothing to do with it- the fact that he did it with aplomb is the more pertinent point in this discussion. As has been pointed out to you several times on this thread, the evident discipline and respect for his command evinced by his charges are exactly the sort of thing that builds his reputation. Being a great commander isn't all about finding magical goat paths through the mountains. It's also about being given a task and doing it well, and by all accounts Tarlly excels at such.

[ETA: for a modern military commander who was lauded for service in a similar situation, see Russel Honoré]

The forces of Randyll at Duskendale are unknown, but considering that the plan was devised by Roose Bolton, a cold and calculating man, you would think he gave the Lannisters an estimate of how many men Tallhart/Glover had with them. So it's safe to say that his mixed Lannister/Tyrell force had a large force. Tywin had 500 knights at the Green Fork, the Tyrells have a huge mounted force, plus any forces/freeriders still left in King's Landing. Randyll should have smashed them.

The forces that Tarlly has at Duskendale are unknown, as are the specifics about the results in terms of Tarly's casualties. You assume that he had a large advantage in terms of gross numbers. You assume that the terrain etc. was such that a large advantage in horse should have been decisive. You assume what precise information Tarly should have had as he prepared his attack. You assume that 'heavy casualties' on the part of the Tyrell forces was an unanticipated, avoidable outcome. You assume that smashing the collective Glover/Tallhart forces and killing half of the command and not killing/capturing 100% of the opposition force was a subpar performance. You are welcome to assume anything you want in order to enhance your reading of the books, but none of these assumptions are particularly compelling to me. In particular, Kevan Lannister, who was deep in the counsels of Tywin and certainly knew the setup of the battle (and is an accomplished soldier himself) still holds Tarlly in high esteem, and he's got much greater knowledge of the battle then we get a readers. If the alternatives are that either all of your assumptions are correct and Kevan is an idiot, or some of your assumptions are incorrect and Kevan is exactly the capable judge of character that we've seen in the novels, then I'm picking the latter.

His victory over Robert was NOTHING. I explained this in the OP, Robert had already won three battles at Summerhall, his forces were bloodied, battered and depleted when he ran into Randyll. And again, Randyll didn't follow through, Robert escaped! He could've ended the rebellion in one swoop. (Read the OP for the rest, I don't want to re-type it all)

Other posters have answered you on this point repeatedly. Robert was an excellent commander, had battle-hardened soldiers that he had previously led in combat, and against this Tarly had but the vanguard of a green, untested force and Tarly still came out with a decisive victory that for all intents and purposes ended the southern campaign for the duration of RR. You assume that better outcomes were not only possible, but that indeed it is a blight on Tarly's record that he didn't do more. As other posters have pointed out, your line of reasoning isn't all that persuasive to many of us on this point.