Jump to content

R+L=J v.44


Angalin

Recommended Posts

Barristan Selmy POV's:

Barristan on Love:

"Better for Daenaerys, and for Westeros. Daenerys Targaryen loved her captain, but that was the girl in her, not the Queen. Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it. Daemon Blackfyre had loved the first Daenerys, and rose in rebellion when denied her. Bittersteel and Bloodraven had both loved Sheira Seastar, and the Seven Kingdoms bled....."

Selmy goes on to list more Targaryen loves and losses, and ends with this:

"Her love for Daario is poison. A slower poison than the locusts, but in the end as deadly." - page 875 in ADwD hardback.

Barriston on Harrenhal:

"Perhaps by now he should have grown to such things. The Red Keep had it's secrets too. Even Rhaegar. The Prince of Dragonstone had never trusted him as he had trusted Arthur Dayne. Harrenhal was proof of that. The Year of the False Spring."

"The memory was still bitter. Old Lord Whent had announced the tourney shortly after a visit from his brother, Ser Oswell Whent of the Kingsguard. With Varys whispering in his ear, King Aerys became convinced that his son was conspiring to depose him, that Whents tourney was but a ploy to give Rhaegar a pretext for meeting with as many great lords as could be brought together. Aerys had not set foot outside the Red Keep since Duskendale, yet suddenly he announced that he would accompany Prince Rhaegar to Harrenhal, and everything had gone awry from there."

"If I had been a better Knight..... if I had unhorsed the Prince in that last tilt, as I unhorsed so many others, it would have been for me to choose the queen of love and beauty."

"Rhaegar had chosen Lyanna Stark of Winterfell. Barristan Selmy would have made a different choice. Not the Queen, who was not present. Nor Elia of Dorne, though she was good and gentle; had she been chosen, much war and woe might have been avoided. His choice would have been a young maiden not long at court, one of Elias companians.... though compared to Ashara Dayne, the Dornish Princess was a kitchen drab."

And further down:

" But Asharas daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well.

"She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she?

"He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either.

" If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark." -page 879 in ADwD Hardback

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is always interesting when:

If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark.
is read as a Stark had dishonored Ashara. Try this excercise:
If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark to be dishonored.

ETA: We know that the tourney lasted ten days, to allow for all of the jousting challenges to be satisfied. The crown was awarded at the conclusion of festivities. So, if Barristan hopes to make an impression on Ashara at the conclusion (after he says she had been dishonored) that would influence her future choices and prevent her from committing suicide, we can project the "looked to" as nearer Ashara's suicide.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is always interesting when:

is read as a Stark had dishonored Ashara. Try this excercise:

ETA: We know that the tourney lasted ten days, to allow for all of the jousting challenges to be satisfied. The crown was awarded at the conclusion of festivities. So, if Barristan hopes to make an impression on Ashara at the conclusion (after he says she had been dishonored) that would influence her future choices and prevent her from committing suicide, we can project the "looked to" as nearer Ashara's suicide.

What I was a little chagrined about was the fact that I had gotten it my head that it was written as: " a Stark," :dunce: but in going back and compiling his POV's on this topic, I saw that it was; "Stark."

And sorry for the length of it, but with the exception of one paragraph when he further elaborates on her appearance, I kept it in context regarding Harrenhal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A few of us think he took her from Harrenhal, but after the tournament. We know that Dayne and Whent helped him out and Harrenhal was Whent's home. He knows the place and the area. The Whents were going to be Lyanna's in-laws, and they had a daughter who was probably around her age. It made sense for her to stay there and become socialized in the south and wait until Brandon and Catelyn's wedding instead of trekking all the way back up north only to turn around and come back. It also provides two possible modes of marriage: Septon Meribald on his circuit, and the weirwoods on the Isle of Faces.

I think this is plausible and agree that Harrenhal would be an ideal location from which to stage an "abduction" especially if one of Rhaegar's conspirators was of House Whent. It was close to the God's Eye and the Isle of Faces which would be a perfect spot for a Northern girl who worships the old gods to go to take her marriage vows. But I do have one question about this from your post: "The Whents were going to be Lyanna's in-laws..." How do you figure?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think this is plausible and agree that Harrenhal would be an ideal location from which to stage an "abduction" especially if one of Rhaegar's conspirators was of House Whent. It was close to the God's Eye and the Isle of Faces which would be a perfect spot for a Northern girl who worships the old gods to go to take her marriage vows. But I do have one question about this from your post: "The Whents were going to be Lyanna's in-laws..." How do you figure?

You know until now I never really thought about the possibility of Lyanna and Rhaegar getting married before they ran away to the TOJ but reading this, it does indeed make more sense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What I was a little chagrined about was the fact that I had gotten it my head that it was written as: " a Stark," :dunce: but in going back and compiling his POV's on this topic, I saw that it was; "Stark."

And sorry for the length of it, but with the exception of one paragraph when he further elaborates on her appearance, I kept it in context regarding Harrenhal.

A lot of discussions about that sentence have postulated which Stark, and thus "a Stark" was inserted into the discussions, since it was known that it was some specific Stark. I just can't seem to get enough emphasis on the fact that Barristan does not (or will not) name the man who dishonored Ashara, and that that sentence has no relation to the dishonor. (ETA)That final sentence is aimed at preventing Ashara's suicide by telling or otherwise expressing his love for her beforehand.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know that there's people who don't buy the 'they're married' angle, even if they buy R+L=J, but I don't think Rhaegar would dishonour a lady, and certainly not one as highborn as her, by not doing so. Definitely not if he 'planned' to have a child with her (though how much it's planned is up for debate, he probably was in a love haze).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A lot of discussions about that sentence have postulated which Stark, and thus "a Stark" was inserted into the discussions, since it was known that it was some specific Stark. I just can't seem to get enough emphasis on the fact that Barristan does not (or will not) name the man who dishonored Ashara, and that that sentence has no relation to the dishonor.

I totally get your point about that, but the one thing that keeps me from really giving credence to the Aerys theory is that in the passage Alia quoted above, Barristan thinks of Ashara's grief as not just for her child, but "perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well" I just can't see Ashara grieving, or Barristan thinking she would grieve, for a rapist. That's the thing that makes me think the "dishonor" was decidedly one sided or mainly in Barristan's mind.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I totally get your point about that, but the one thing that keeps me from really giving credence to the Aerys theory is that in the passage Alia quoted above, Barristan thinks of Ashara's grief as not just for her child, but "perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well" I just can't see Ashara grieving, or Barristan thinking she would grieve, for a rapist. That's the thing that makes me think the "dishonor" was decidedly one sided or mainly in Barristan's mind.

Very good point, it really depends on how you interpret "for the man that dishonored her". For example does this mean she was grieving for the simple fact that a man dishonored her in general at Harrenhal? Which could support the possibility of her being raped by Aerys. Or does this mean she was literally grieving for the man who dishonored her? Possibly meaning she was grieving about the death of Brandon Stark who took her virtue at Harrenhal which would have been magnified even more once she had lost her and Brandon's daughter which she might have saw as Brandon's Legacy/last connection to her.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Very good point, it really depends on how you interpret "for the man that dishonored her". For example does this mean she was grieving for the simple fact that a man dishonored her in general at Harrenhal? Which could support the possibility of her being raped by Aerys. Or does this mean she was literally grieving for the man who dishonored her? Possibly meaning she was grieving about the death of Brandon Stark who took her virtue at Harrenhal which would have been magnified even more once she had lost her and Brandon's daughter which she might have saw as Brandon's Legacy/last connection to her.

Hmm... Obviously I tend to the latter interpretation but the very fact that you could understand this in two almost opposite ways is so frustratingly typical of GRRM.

Of course where you and I diverge and I intersect with Mtn Lion is in whether you take the assumption (Barristan's) that the still born girl was Ashara's child as truth ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I totally get your point about that, but the one thing that keeps me from really giving credence to the Aerys theory is that in the passage Alia quoted above, Barristan thinks of Ashara's grief as not just for her child, but "perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well" I just can't see Ashara grieving, or Barristan thinking she would grieve, for a rapist. That's the thing that makes me think the "dishonor" was decidedly one sided or mainly in Barristan's mind.

It does make sense if Barristan does not know that it was Aerys who raped Ashara, instead of someone seducing her. At first I thought that he might, but the more thought I gave to that sentence the more I came to realize that he does not know who dishonored Ashara. Barristan is grasping at straws for the motivation that Ashara might have had for her suicide. I think that if Aegon were truly her child there is the motivation. (If Varys were to offer her a chance at raising Aegon, there might be a noticeable change in her outlook, too.)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hmm... Obviously I tend to the latter interpretation but the very fact that you could understand this in two almost opposite ways is so frustratingly typical of GRRM.

Of course where you and I diverge and I intersect with Mtn Lion is in whether you take the assumption (Barristan's) that the still born girl was Ashara's child as truth ;)

To be honest I really can't say if I believe it or not at this point, although I will say that I do take ser Barristan's thoughts very seriously in general.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Very good point, it really depends on how you interpret "for the man that dishonored her". For example does this mean she was grieving for the simple fact that a man dishonored her in general at Harrenhal? Which could support the possibility of her being raped by Aerys. Or does this mean she was literally grieving for the man who dishonored her? Possibly meaning she was grieving about the death of Brandon Stark who took her virtue at Harrenhal which would have been magnified even more once she had lost her and Brandon's daughter which she might have saw as Brandon's Legacy/last connection to her.

That was a point that I had made with Ran (Elio), that it might have been that she was dishonored, rather than for the man. We know that she gave birth before or at the same time as Aegon's birth, which is before Brandon's ride to King's Landing. Once Brandon is arrested it takes at least a fortnight to summon Rickard. If Brandon had dishonored Ashara, and she had had a stillborn daughter, and Barristan is correct about her motivation, why not commit suicide before the war? Hence, Barristan has some faulty logic in there. If Aegon is her child, and Ned (when he returns Dawn) tells her his condition not knowing (not in a gentle way), it stands to reason that she would definitely be gloomy afterwards.

ETA clarity

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It does make sense if Barristan does not know that it was Aerys who raped Ashara, instead of someone seducing her. At first I thought that he might, but the more thought I gave to that sentence the more I came to realize that he does not know who dishonored Ashara. Barristan is grasping at straws for the motivation that Ashara might have had for her suicide. I think that if Aegon were truly her child there is the motivation. (If Varys were to offer her a chance at raising Aegon, there might be a noticeable change in her outlook, too.)

Good point about this being Barristan's "perceptions"- I had forgotten to account for that! At least we are in complete agreement that if it was Aerys, Barristan could not have known. His thoughts would be much more dark and tormented if he even suspected such a thing. And of course we agree that her motivations to either kill herself or fake her own death make so much sense if fAegon is actually her child.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To be honest I really can't say if I believe it or not at this point, although I will say that I do take ser Barristan's thoughts very seriously in general.

Yes I think this POV is one of the most important pieces of evidence we have, it's one that I read again and again trying to tease new insight out of it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good point about this being Barristan's "perceptions"- I had forgotten to account for that! At least we are in complete agreement that if it was Aerys, Barristan could not have known. His thoughts would be much more dark and tormented if he even suspected such a thing. And of course we agree that her motivations to either kill herself or fake her own death make so much sense if fAegon is actually her child.

I can point back up to a line in the quotes:
The Year of the False Spring. The memory was still bitter. Old Lord Whent had announced the tourney shortly after a visit from his brother, Ser Oswell Whent of the Kingsguard. With Varys whispering in his ear, King Aerys became convinced that his son was conspiring to depose him, that Whents tourney was but a ploy to give Rhaegar a pretext for meeting with as many great lords as could be brought together. Aerys had not set foot outside the Red Keep since Duskendale, yet suddenly he announced that he would accompany Prince Rhaegar to Harrenhal, and everything had gone awry from there.
This might be a cue that Barristan is supressing his knowledge. GRRM had a problem with Meereen, which he solved by using Barristan for a POV. However, Barristan knows too much (in my opinion) so his thoughts had be carefully worded.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can point back up to a line in the quotes:

This might be a cue that Barristan is supressing his knowledge. GRRM had a problem with Meereen, which he solved by using Barristan for a POV. However, Barristan knows too much (in my opinion) so his thoughts had be carefully worded.

I definitely feel like that line indicates greater knowledge of something. I always felt like it was the Rhaegar-Elia-Lyanna situation, but I take your point that it could be much more and, given his train of thought about Ashara, likely is. Guess I'll go read that POV for the umpteenth time ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That was a point that I had made with Ran (Elio), that it might have been that she was dishonored, rather than for the man. We know that she gave birth before or at the same time as Aegon's birth, which is before Brandon's ride to King's Landing. Once Brandon is arrested it takes at least a fortnight to summon Rickard. If Brandon had dishonored Ashara, and she had had a stillborn daughter, and Barristan is correct about her motivation, why not commit suicide before the war? Hence, Barristan has some faulty logic in there. If Aegon is her child, and Ned (when he returns Dawn) tells her his condition not knowing (not in a gentle way), it stands to reason that she would definitely be gloomy afterwards.

ETA clarity

Arguably it might be the accumulated grief of her stillborn daughter, Brandon, Elia (clearly a close friend if not co-conspirator), and then finally her brother, it is not like Ashara's life was short on losses over that year (assuming Brandon is the "Stark"). That said I'm starting to like the idea that Ashara and Elia switched babies, and that the Aegon in KL was hers not Elia's. It would very neatly explain why she took her life after Ned's visit as opposed to before.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Ashara was raped, it was either Aerys, or maybe even drunken Robert.

BUT, what I tend to think is really going on here, is again, more Martinisms and double entendre's, as well as self-delusion and wishful thinking regarding Selmys own heart.

Since Selmy idealizes Ashara, he choose's to believe Ashara was dishonored, or seduced rather than believe Ashara may have been in a very willing tryst with someone, (Brandon Stark), whom she likely was in love with, because he views her as innocent.

I think the problem with the Aerys thing, is that I actually do think Selmy would know because he's Kingsguard and no one in the Royal Family notices them, so no need to hide anything from them. He also has a "scewed" view of what the Kings "rights" are, as well as KG honor in regards to his relationship with the King, so I think he would bury his own outrage as opposed to if it was any other man.

And finally, if it was Aerys that raped Ashara, I don't think turning to "Stark" would help her, and she would most definitely drink her tea.

As far as Elia and Ashara switching babies, I got the feel she was sent pretty quickly from Court, before it became evident, so she wouldn't be around for Elia giving birth, but I guess anything is possible. :dunno:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A description from the appendix that lacks a narraitor's pov isn't the same as how the characters use the phrase in the story itself.

Okay, how about this from Brienne in Feast for Crows:

"You'll find the truth in your looking glass, not on the tongues of men." It was a harsh lesson, one that left her weeping, but it had stood her in good stead at Harrnhal when Ser Hyle and his friends had played their game.

I'm pretty sure that refers to a time after the false spring tournament.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...