What if R+L=J is wrong how will fans react

[Bold Barry Whitebeard]

That is why I said that this is what we know until now.

Maybe, but there is this SSM:

"As to your speculations about Catelyn and Ashara Dayne... sigh... needless to say, All Will Be Revealed in Good Time. I will give you this much, however; Ashara Dayne was not nailed to the floor in Starfall, as some of the fans who write me seem to assume. They have horses in Dorne too, you know. And boats (though not many of their own). As a matter of fact (a tiny tidbit from SOS), she was one of Princess Elia's lady companions in King's Landing, in the first few years after Elia married Rhaegar."

[Sasha Steelsong]

This. I completely believe R + L = J but I'm not emotionally invested in the theory at all. All the evidence simply points that way. If it turns out I'm wrong and everything can be properly explained another way.. I'd love that.

This. I won't be upset if the all the questions that people haven't been able to answer with other theories (Why the KG were at the TOJ? Why Ned's been living a lie for 14 year? Why he needed to keep Jon's mother such a secret? etc) are addressed with a different set of parents for Jon. What will be upsetting is if R+L=J is wrong and none of those questions are answered, in part because GRRM put those questions in the text to begin with.

[Im no Ser]

What we know until now, is that before ToJ Ned met Ashara only in Harrenhall.

We know nothing of the sort. We know they met at ToH. There is no evidence one way or the other regarding any subsequent meetings they had between then and her purported suicide. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

[strangejosh]

yes, with Aemon they are five honourable Targs. Hardly most of the Targs...

I hardly like the Targs but there were more than five that were "good/honorable") rulers and or people. I put (debatable) on certain people because of some of the wars involved, but overall they ruled in peace.

Aegon I (debatable)

Visenya Targaryen (debatable)

Rhaenys Targaryen (debatable)

Aenys I

Good Queen Alysanne

Jaehaerys I

Viserys I

Aegon III

Elaena Targaryen

Daemon Blackfyre (debatable)

Baelor I

Rhaena Targaryen

Aemon Targaryen (The Dragonknight)

Naerys Targaryen

Daeron II

Jaehaerys II

Aegon V (Egg)

Aemon

Maester Aemon

Rhaegar Targaryen (debatable)

Daenerys Targaryen (debatable)

Do the research, but these people seem mostly good and certainly weren't batshit crazy like Aerys II or Viserys III. I think overall despite people talking about the Targs coming out either crazy or awesome they seem mostly decent rulers in many respects.

I still like the Starks above all else as a family and relate more closely to their values of honor and duty.

[jon stark I]

I would go buy a bottle of wine and start celebrating.I hate Targeryans.Those jerks.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

snip

I have done the research and still no. Only Baelor, his sons, M.Aemon, Egg and maybe Aegon III looks honorable or good by doing something importand to me.

Aegon I (debatable)

Visenya Targaryen (debatable)

Rhaenys Targaryen (debatable)

Aenys I---Nothing important for us to say if he was honourable or great

Good Queen Alysanne

Jaehaerys I

Viserys I

Aegon III

Elaena Targaryen

Daemon Blackfyre (debatable)

Baelor I---No he imprisoned his sisters

Rhaena Targaryen---Nothing important for us to say if she was honourable or great.

Aemon Targaryen (The Dragonknight)---Nothing important for us to say if he was honourable or great not to mention that he maybe fathered the child of his sister.

Naerys Targaryen---Nothing important for us to say if he was honourable or great.

Daeron II---Nothing important for us to say if he was honourable or great.

Jaehaerys II---Nothing important for us to say if he was honourable or great.

Aegon V (Egg)

Aemon ? Who

Maester Aemon

Daenerys Targaryen (debatable)

[MtnLion]

Are you saying Elia became pregnant at the same time as TOH?

Either at or shortly after. Maybe shortly before, but I would guess that since the tourney lasted ten days, that it could be ten days to either side, as well. She is fresh from being bedridden for six months from Rhaenys' birth, and then we have Rhaenys at 2 maybe 3 when she is killed. (I swear that Jaime just had turned seventeen when he killed Aerys, too. I have not been able to find that quote, though.)

[The Black Hawk]

Whatever who is Jon's parents one of sides will be upset

[jon stark I]

Nooooooooooooooooooooo.What did he mean by she was a bed maid of Elia and staying KL.Ashara is Neds first love.Can't this guy have one choice in his life that he made.Ned married his brothers fiance to fulfill his part of a deal, went to Roberts wars, became Hand for King Bob.Is he a robot.I still believe that Ashara and Ned are Jons parents.Of couse Ned loved Cat later in the marriege but Ashara and all that stuff gives him more complicated character.

[Bold Barry Whitebeard]

Nooooooooooooooooooooo.What did he mean by she was a bed maid of Elia and staying KL.Ashara is Neds first love.Can't this guy have one choice in his life that he made.Ned married his brothers fiance to fulfill his part of a deal, went to Roberts wars, became Hand for King Bob.Is he a robot.I still believe that Ashara and Ned are Jons parents.Of couse Ned loved Cat later in the marriege but Ashara and all that stuff gives him more complicated character.

I don't think he meant that Ashara and Elia were engaged in a homosexual affair. Like Margaery sleeps with her cousins, it's not unusual for women to sleep in the same bed both for protection and for warmth.

[Im no Ser]

Nooooooooooooooooooooo.What did he mean by she was a bed maid of Elia and staying KL.Ashara is Neds first love.Can't this guy have one choice in his life that he made.Ned married his brothers fiance to fulfill his part of a deal, went to Roberts wars, became Hand for King Bob.Is he a robot.I still believe that Ashara and Ned are Jons parents.Of couse Ned loved Cat later in the marriege but Ashara and all that stuff gives him more complicated character.

If N+A=J then -

How did Lyana die?

What was the promise Ned made to her on her deathbed, that cost him so much over the years?

Why was the KG still at the TOJ after Aerys and Rhaegar died?

Why would Ned refuse to let anyone speak of Jon's mother?

Why would Ned conceal Ashara's identity as Jon's mother from anyone?

Why would Ned conceal Ashara's identity as Jon's mother from Jon, causing emotional harm to a boy he clearly loves?

And that's putting aside the prophecy issues. N+A=J answers none of these questions, R+L=J answers all of them.

Whatever who is Jon's parents one of sides will be upset

Absent GRRM failing to answer the above questions I don't see anything to suggest R+L=J folk will be unhappy if the theory doesn't pan out, whereas at least a half dozen people on this thread alone have said they hope it isn't so.

[strangejosh]

I have done the research and still no. Only Baelor, his sons, M.Aemon, Egg and maybe Aegon III looks honorable or good by doing something importand to me.

I totally missed Baelor Targaryen. Definitely the epitome of a true knight, but please see below for my counter-arguments.

Aegon I (debatable)-Conquered 6 of the 7 kingdoms and made Westeros a force to be reckoned with. By all account was a fair and honorable ruler for 37 years to those that bent the knee to him.

Visenya Targaryen (debatable)-Helped conquer Westeros and is mainly remembered and respected as a strong, capable Warrior, something few women are acknowledged as. Took the Vale without bloodshed.

Rhaenys Targaryen (debatable)-Helped conquer Westeros and was said to have been interested in music and poetry. No indication she was crazy or mean.

Aenys I-Actually I'm not sure about this one. He was weak and couldn't handle the faith uprising, but wasn't a "bad" or un-honorable person by any accounts.

Viserys I-King Viserys I ruled well, and continued the prosperous peace left to him by his grandfather Jaehaerys I. Lacking a son to succeed him, Viserys began to groom Princess Rhaenyra to be the ruling queen. He taught her how to rule and made her part of his small council.

Daemon Blackfyre (debatable)-Was a man of considerable charm and strength, mastering all weapons of the battlefield, but with the sword in hand he was said to fight like the Warrior himself. He won friends easily and women were drawn to him. Many who disliked the Dornish influence and academic nature of Daeron's court preferred Daemon's rugged charisma and apathy toward learning and religion. According to Ser Eustace Osgrey of Standfast, all the great knights of the realm gathered to him. He defeated Ser Gwayne Corbray of the Kingsguard in single combat. Then, instead of attacking Prince Maekar'sforces, he defended the wounded Corbray and had him carried off the field.

Also not his fault his father legitimized him on his deathbed. He thought the kingship was his for the taking. He definitely seemed the definition of an honorable knight even if his motivation for the iron throne was dubious.

Baelor I-He only imprisoned them due to his super religious devotion. I don't agree with it but it doesn't make him a bad ruler per say. One of them actually liked it and the other just kept escaping. None of the Targaryen dynasty's kings are as beloved as Baelor, he loved the smallfolk and the gods in equal parts. Some remember Baelor as a great and holy man, given to deep prayer and fasting to experience religious visions, and honor him for his contributions to the Faith, including the construction of the Great Sept in King's Landing.

Rhaena Targaryen-Rhaena, unlike her two sisters, never chaffed at her confinement. She was heavily influenced by her brother Baelor and became a Septa of the Faith. Nothing to say that she wan't good and honorable especially if she became a Septa.

Aemon Targaryen (The Dragonknight)-He served under four kings: Daeron the Young Dragon, Baelor the Blessed, his father Viserys II, and lastly his own brother, Aegon IV. He eventually was named Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, a position he held until he died defending his elder brother and king, Aegon IV, from two brothers of House Toyne who sought to assassinate the king in retribution for the execution of their brother, Ser Terrence Toyne.

Naerys Targaryen. Songs speak of his doomed love for his brother's queen, his own sister, Queen Naerys. He supposedly cried when Naerys married their brother. It is rumored that Prince Aemon was the father of King Daeron II Targaryen. He defended the honor of his sister, Queen Naerys, against the slanders of the "evil" Ser Morgil. He also won a tournament, disguised as a mystery knight, known only as the Knight of Tears, so he could name his sister, Naerys, the Queen of Love and Beauty in place of the king's mistress.He once fought Cregan Stark. Prince Aemon claimed he never faced a finer swordsman.

Not sure what more you need to say he was good and honorable. He may or may have not fathered the child of his sister but that's hardly anything new for the Targs now is it?

Daeron II-Daeron II was dignified. He had a kind thoughtful face. He was round-shouldered, with thin legs and a small pot belly. His face has a certain quiet strength, though, and his eyes are clear and full of resolve. Daeron the Good was not a warrior by any means, he was a cultured, scholarly man who kept company with maesters and other learned men. He negotiated the marriage of his much younger sister Daenerys to Prince Maron Martell, the ruling Prince of Dorne. Thereby Daeron joined Dorne to the Seven Kingdoms, finally uniting all of Westeros south of the wall, two hundred years after Aegon the conqueror first envisioned it.

Come one. His name was Daeron the Good.

Jaehaerys II-Due to his delicate health, Jaehaerys was considered weak by many, but Ser Barristan, who served him, thought differently. Jaehaerys' reign only lasted three years, but he reigned well in those short years.

If Barristan is backing him then hey.

Aemon-Typo. I mean Maester Aemon.

Daenerys Targaryen (debatable)-Hard to say. Her heart is in the right place I think. She's just young and inexperienced. She wants to do the right thing and tires to do so with her slave freeing crusade. It's tough being a Queen, but overall I would say she is good and honorable. Not to mention accomplished much more than many Targs ever did. Time will tell.

[jon stark I]

I don't think he meant that Ashara and Elia were engaged in a homosexual affair. Like Margaery sleeps with her cousins, it's not unusual for women to sleep in the same bed both for protection and for warmth.

No not a homosexxual realtionship.That is not my issue I tought he was poiting fingers about someone who lived in KL or something like that.That is why I made a darth vader "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" scene.

[Bold Barry Whitebeard]

If N+A=J then -

How did Lyana die?

What was the promise Ned made to her on her deathbed, that cost him so much over the years?

Why was the KG still at the TOJ after Aerys and Rhaegar died?

Why would Ned refuse to let anyone speak of Jon's mother?

Why would Ned conceal Ashara's identity as Jon's mother from anyone?

Why would Ned conceal Ashara's identity as Jon's mother from Jon, causing emotional harm to a boy he clearly loves?

And that's putting aside the prophecy issues. N+A=J answers none of these questions, R+L=J answers all of them.

The answer to the last three is the same. A combination of the memory being too painful, and Ned protecting the honor of a lady that he had a child with out of wedlock.

The KG at the tower of joy were there because they had nowhere else to go. Like Barristan, they accepted that Viserys could not, or should not be king. Unlike Barristan, they did not feel they could not accept a pardon and decided to die.

If they were really protecting a king, fighting a lopsided battle in an open plain instead of from the security of the tower seems foolish. If they were really protecting a king, they would have fled across the sea like viserys did, not wait around for a victorious army to find them.

What did Lyanna die of? It might be that she had the pale mare. It might be that she had a still birth. Maybe they swapped stories, saying that Ashara had the still birth to explain why her child disappeared (going with Ned).

[Bold Barry Whitebeard]

No not a homosexxual realtionship.That is not my issue I tought he was poiting fingers about someone who lived in KL or something like that.That is why I made a darth vader "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" scene.

Oooh, I see. That's not how I interpreted what GRRM said at all. I took it to mean that since Ashara was not nailed to the floor at Starfall, she could have met with Ned at some place other than the ToH.

[jon stark I]

Well if that is not a red herring that just made my day.

[KOM]

GRRM asked D&D who Jon's mother was. If they gave a dumb answer to that, likely there would be no TV show.

People who, at this point, deny R+L=J are denying the overwhelming amount of textual evidence in its favor.

Everyone else has touched on so many points, so here's just one. For a book that is mostly very tightly tied together (e.g. Hound at Quiet Isle speculation, or Frey Pies), if R+L=J isn't implicitly true, why spend so much time talking about how Lyanna looked, and inherited appearances in general, while being so coy with "my bood" vs "my son" distinctions?

R+L=J is a theory. Gravity is a theory too. Nothing is holding the story of ASOIAF together quite like it tho.

[Top Notch Balanter]

well id love it if R + L = J is false it would piss so many people on the boards off and it would give me deep satisfaction after seeing most people accepting it as pure fact and putting it on threads as if it's a done deal

Realistically i do feel it is most likely true which is the main thing that i dislike about the show

[Techelles]

Alas, we'll never know.

[Fedelede]

what? Seriously? Except Breakspear (maybe Valarr Matarys) and Egg who else is honourable?

Around half of them.

Aegon the Conqueror, Jaehaerys the Wise, Viserys I, Aegon the Dragonbane to a degree, Daeron the Young Dragon, Baelor the Befuddled (if that's how you like your kings), Viserys II, Daeron the Good and Aegon the Unlikely (Egg) all ruled well, and of those I'd say only Viserys I, Viserys II and Aegon the Dragonbane were not honourable. Daemon Blackfyre is also rather honourable.