Jump to content

What if R+L=J is wrong how will fans react


The Black Hawk

Recommended Posts

GRRM asked D&D who Jon's mother was. If they gave a dumb answer to that, likely there would be no TV show.

People who, at this point, deny R+L=J are denying the overwhelming amount of textual evidence in its favor.

Everyone else has touched on so many points, so here's just one. For a book that is mostly very tightly tied together (e.g. Hound at Quiet Isle speculation, or Frey Pies), if R+L=J isn't implicitly true, why spend so much time talking about how Lyanna looked, and inherited appearances in general, while being so coy with "my bood" vs "my son" distinctions?

R+L=J is a theory. Gravity is a theory too. Nothing is holding the story of ASOIAF together quite like it tho.

I know all facts about this theory and you are right we are possibly denying the truth.But I really don't want it to be true.I tried making too many theores about Ned+Ashara and they fit perfectly but We have no evidince about it.I mean no real evidince.But I still hope that it isn't true.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

R+L=J is a theory. Gravity is a theory too.

Eureka!

The assumption that R+L is not J at this point is like saying that it is all a dream or that maybe aliens will come (dream and aliens coming from Martin's words, giving example of what lying and bad storytelling would be like in his series). So should we always say "If it's not a dream and aliens don't come and destroy everything, then maybe Jaqen = Pate?"

R+L=J, and we can only prosper from accepting it. In fact, I don't see why so many people don't want it to be true. Really, what's so bad about it? Sometimes it seems as if the theory is that Ramsay and Gregor are Jon's parents?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

well id love it if R + L = J is false it would piss so many people on the boards off and it would give me deep satisfaction after seeing most people accepting it as pure fact and putting it on threads as if it's a done deal

Realistically i do feel it is most likely true which is the main thing that i dislike about the show

Agreed. It's so obvious I hope it's false, though the main thing I dislike in ASOIAF is the prophecies, because they make some characters more important than other for having a destiny established. That's why I didn't mind the portrayal of the House of the Undying in the show.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

R+L=J, and we can only prosper from accepting it. In fact, I don't see why so many people don't want it to be true. Really, what's so bad about it? Sometimes it seems as if the theory is that Ramsay and Gregor are Jon's parents?

I think they don't want it to be true simply because so many others believe it to be true, and can actually support their arguments. Plus, some people have devoted a lot of time and effort into disproving the theory, and I can understand that they would like some validation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I tried making too many theores about Ned+Ashara and they fit perfectly but We have no evidence about it.I mean no real evidence.But I still hope that it isn't true.

It's all about which characters you like better than others. Denying R+L=J and wanting N+A=J or A or X means that Ned is not as honorable as we want to believe he was.

Thinking he was faithful to his brother Brandon (protecting his honor by living the lie that he got Ashara Dayne with child), protecting his sister Lyanna's honor and her child from the man he loved as a brother that was "madly in love with her" and "madly hated the Targaryens"

Lying to his family about Jon Snow, not telling the truth to Robert as he lay on his death bed about the truth of Joffrey. Changing his will so that he could deny Cersei's bastard the throne without telling Robert? I'd call that another lie.

Lying about his treason to the new gods to try and save his daughter's life.

Ned didn't lie unless it was for an honorable reason. To protect those he loved.

because of that I doubt Ned got with Ashara Dayne at the tournament at Harrenhall. I'm not saying it's impossible, but the clues to me seem to point in the direction that Brandon Stark got her with child and there's a lot of clues from a lot of different characters. This makes things add up better and make Ned Stark a better character. Will we ever find out the truth? Probably not, Ned, Brandon and Lyanna are dead, Ashara and Benjen are apparently dead. Who might know the truth? Sadly, you guessed it Howland Reed.

Jojen and Meera Reed were told the ToH stories many times by their father, but the whole ___ Wolf slept with Ashara and put a bastard in her belly is not a "story fit for children" it's the same reason that Edric Dayne tells the story that they(N+A) "fell in love" at Harrenhall.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The answer to the last three is the same. A combination of the memory being too painful, and Ned protecting the honor of a lady that he had a child with out of wedlock.

That's an answer to "Why doesn't he tell the general public" - although it isn't a great answer, since there's apparently already a well circuated story going around that she was pregnant anyway - But why conceal it from Jon? The boy is suffering and Ned sees this - where's the honor in hiding this fact from his son and causing emotional trauma as a result? And why conceal it from Cat, who already assumes it's Ashara and from whom he appears to keep no other secrets? R+L=J answers this: Jon's life depends on the secret.

The KG at the tower of joy were there because they had nowhere else to go. Like Barristan, they accepted that Viserys could not, or should not be king. Unlike Barristan, they did not feel they could not accept a pardon and decided to die.

Not impossible, but IMO very unlikely. One of the few things we really know about Hightower is that he took his duty very seriously: he's the one who tells Jamie they aren't there to protect Rhaella from Aerys; he's the one who tells Jamie they aren't there to judge Aerys when he burns Rickard Stark; and he's the one who states - when asked why they didn't go to Essos with Viserys replies "The Kingsguard does not flee...we took a vow." It strikes me as improbable that his last words are about how seriously he takes a vow that - by not attending to Viserys, if he's the rightful king - he's breaking.

If they were really protecting a king, fighting a lopsided battle in an open plain instead of from the security of the tower seems foolish. If they were really protecting a king, they would have fled across the sea like viserys did, not wait around for a victorious army to find them.

That they intended to die fulfilling their duty is a definite possibility, but that means dying protecting Jon, their King. In any event, Jon is a newborn and his mother is in very ill health. There is no guarantee Jon survives the trip (and there is no way Lyanna does), especially since - unlike Ned - the KG travelling with a baby can't really be seen without raising some pretty obvious questions.

What did Lyanna die of? It might be that she had the pale mare. It might be that she had a still birth. Maybe they swapped stories, saying that Ashara had the still birth to explain why her child disappeared (going with Ned).

She's in a "bed of blood" which is used elsewhere in ASOIAF as a euphemism for childbirth, so the pale mare is unlikely. Moreover before she dies, she is in terror. It's only when Ned agrees to her promise - which he states specifically came with a great cost - that the fear goes out of her eyes. "Promise me you'll protect my son" is one of the few things that makes sense in this context.

Add to that the facts that he never refers to Jon as his son in his own mind, doesn't include Jon in a list of his children (in fairness that sentence is intentionally ambiguous), talks about some lies having honor, muses to himself that he hopes he never finds out what would happen if Cat ever had to choose between her children and Jon as if it is a real possibility (despite the fact that Jon's already at the wall), never thinks about Ashara Dayne despite reminiscing about her brother, Rhaegar, Lyana, Robert, Jon Aryn, etc., doesn't seem to think of Rhaegar with any ill will, Dany's vision of a blue rose (associated with Lyana) sticking out of a wall of ice - and that's just the stuff I can think of off the top of my head - we've got a lot of evidence. R+L=J fits with every piece.

This is all Off topic though - if you're interested, we should continue this is the R+L=J thread. And despite what's been said on this thread about R+L=j proponents I promise not be an arrogant jerk about it. :cool4:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the Targs ,when they were a the height of their power were, cool.

But if Jon isn't the son of Rhaegar I would be disappointed. The only other theory I'd like is Eddard and Ashara

I think a lot of readers think the 'Mad King' when they think of house Targaryen, unfortunately Baelor Breakspear and Egg don't come to mind. Unfair, but it is what it is.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

We know how strong R+L=J evidince is at this point.But this is wishful thinking at this point.This is not about just being against because there are too many people believes it.This is about how you would have liked it to be.

AT this point Ned is already Jons father if not biological then by raising hm he is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

R+L=J is by far the most likely scenario in terms of who Jon's parents are and I don't think there's anyone that can seriously argue that. If it turns out not to be true I'd have a WTF? Moment like most R+L=J supporters would but I wouldn't be boycott the series pissed lol, but I will say if Ned really turns out to be the biological father i'd be a little dissapointed because I always thought the idea of Ned pretending to be Jon's father so convincingly that he had the rest realm believing it, meaning in the end that Ned out schemed some of the realms best schemers like Littlefinger, Cersei, Tywin, and Varys was always a pretty awesome idea in my opinion . Although I will flat out say I want R+L=J it to be true and the biggest reason I want it to be true is to eliminate the possibility of Jon getting married to Dany who I hate with a burning passion. If R+L=J is true then in my opinion the possibility of Jon marrying Dany is far less likely since I can't ever see Jon being even slightly okay with the idea of incest. But if Jon turns out not to be a Targ then I could really see GRRM forming a union between Ice and fire with a Jon and Dany marriage and that would straight up piss me the fuck off!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I read somewhere that GRRM used to check the forum -- and that one 'mystery' that was worked out by the forum , well GRRM changed it to retain element of surprise. Perhaps this is it. Part of me wants Jon Snow to be dead, and therefore who cares if its true or not. This part of me want him to join Ygritte in the afterlife and stay dead, as much as I like him he should be as dead as Ned and stay that way.

R+L=J is most likely true, it does make sense in a way that no other theory does.

Where did you hear that? Everything I've ever seen with GRRM, when he's asked if the fans influence his writing he specifically states that he does not check the forums, nor has he changed anything due to something he saw in the forums. Why would he, it's his book, he's not writing a mystery novel seires, it doesn't matter when or how or even if his fans figure out a future plot device, and that is certainly no reason to change his whole book series.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've accepted R+L=J, but before I knew of the theory I quite liked the implications of Jon actually being Ned's bastard son. For one, it added greater depth to Ned by showing how the honour of even someone as rigid and composed as himself could falter and have lifelong consequences. And I loved the irony in regards to how Ned's bastard son was more like him than any of his children born in wedlock.

So I'd be quite happy if Jon really did turn out to be Ned's, but I'm not holding my breath.

However, I disagree with other R+L=J supporters that Jon being Rhaegar's son somehow makes him super special aka Azhor Azhai aka PTTP aka King in the North aka King of the Seven Kingdoms; I think Rhaegar being his father is irrelevant. What's more important is that he's the son of Lyanna by blood and the son of Ned by his upbringing: he's a Stark at heart through and through.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was shocked recently when I was around several young girls watching Disney's Snow White (likely around 7 years old) and I overheard that they were all commenting on how fat Snow White was!!! :shocked:

On another note, my mother has been extraordinarily negative about my appearance for pretty well all my life (very unreasonably so in many of those cases imho). One time, when I showed up in a nice, but rather plain Jane dress, she looked at me disapprovingly and said "You're not wearing that to dinner, are you?" and I answered "Of course not. I brought a change of clothing for the Swimsuit competition."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Where did you hear that? Everything I've ever seen with GRRM, when he's asked if the fans influence his writing he specifically states that he does not check the forums, nor has he changed anything due to something he saw in the forums. Why would he, it's his book, he's not writing a mystery novel seires, it doesn't matter when or how or even if his fans figure out a future plot device, and that is certainly no reason to change his whole book series.

I checked this and found I'm 100% wrong. GRRM didn't change anything.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The first time I read AFFC I was disappointed. I thought I knew how the story was going to unfold and was expecting certain things to happen. Of course they didn't and the story moved in a different direction to what I had imagined (Brienne, Jaime, Arya, Cersei & Margaery in particular).

The second time I read it I thoroughly enjoyed it and thought what a good book it was The difference was I was letting GRRM take me where he wanted and not let my preconceptions of where I thought we should go disappoint me.

Same for this. If he isn't who we think he is I'll just go on enjoying the story GRRM is writing - which never seems to be quite the one we think he is.

There are some hints in story but they don't exactly shout out who he is. Some very attentive readers have pulled together all these strands and guarded interview responses from GRRM and built a pretty strong argument that he is Rhaegar's son (I find it persuasive) but until Howland Reed turns up it's not fact.

I mean why do we have Davos learning that story about Ned Stark and the fisherman's daughter from Godric Borell? Why is this introduced?

Follow the story where it goes and don't be disappointed if this isn't where you have been expecting it to (even if you have been expecting for ten years :P ).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know all facts about this theory and you are right we are possibly denying the truth.But I really don't want it to be true.I tried making too many theores about Ned+Ashara and they fit perfectly but We have no evidince about it.I mean no real evidince.But I still hope that it isn't true.

I feel the same way as you.

I came up with a theory that supported Ned + Ashara, but it relied way too much on speculation, as opposed to reasonable inferences from the text.

Unfortunately, common sense says that it R + L= J is true, but I am really hoping that it isn't.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...