What if R+L=J is wrong how will fans react

[Cas Stark]

I feel the same way as you.

I came up with a theory that supported Ned + Ashara, but it relied way too much on speculation, as opposed to reasonable inferences from the text.

Unfortunately, common sense says that it R + L= J is true, but I am really hoping that it isn't.

I'm curious, why do you hope it isn't true?

[FrozenFire3]

I wonder instead, what if (when?) R+L=J is right... how will people react? The visceral opposition of some detractors never stops surprising me. As their 'possessiveness' towards certain characters/storylines. ASoIaF is GRMM's personal roller-coaster and if we don't like where he's taking us, well, we can always weasel out of riding.

I support the R+L=J theory because it's well structured and coherent with narrative construction, clues and foreshadowings. I also like its resonance with powerful classical archetypes. Not to mention the inherent dramatic potential (challenging Jon's identity and self-perception, burdening his shoulder with new choices and responsibilities, steering his fate into unknown territory). At the end of the day I like a powerful, coherent, well structured story. With a load of drama/suffering paving the road of the 'hero' and enhancing his/her depth (my inner evil demon needs satisfaction :devil: ;) ).

I'm not so emotionally invested in it though. I could accept any other solution regarding Jon's ancestry IF well structured, narratively coherent (i.e. no plot holes) and above all equally emotionally challenging.

[Dr. Pepper]

Alas, we'll never know.

This. I nearly find it difficult to take one seriously when they are all "R+L=J is so not true because gaahhhh, I'm a contrarian and arrrgggg I have feelings and emotions and they are saying no, no, no!!!!"

But seriously, it depends on how it were presented. There is already so much textual support for this theory that GRRM would have to work super hard to change it now and still make it believable. If he decided to change things up after five books and make it work with the text he's already laid out, then cool. But if he becomes an amateur and pulls a bullshit answer from his ass just because, then I'll assume he is suffering from dementia or teenage temper tantrums or that I got punked and bought a spoof book on accident.

[FittleLinger]

I wonder instead, what if (when?) R+L=J is right... how will people react? The visceral opposition of some detractors never stops surprising me. As their 'possessiveness' towards certain characters/storylines. ASoIaF is GRMM's personal roller-coaster and if we don't like where he's taking us, well, we can always weasel out of riding.

I support the R+L=J theory because it's well structured and coherent with narrative construction, clues and foreshadowings. I also like its resonance with powerful classical arhetypes. Not to mention the inherent dramatic potential (challenging Jon's identity and self-perception, burdening his shoulder with new choices and responsibilities, steering his fate into unknown territory). At the end of the day I like a powerful, coherent, well structured story. With a load of drama/suffering paving the road of the 'hero' and enhancing his/her depth (my inner evil demon needs satisfaction :devil: ;) ).

I'm not so emotionally invested in it though. I could accept any other solution regarding Jon's ancestry IF well structured, narratively coherent (i.e. no plot holes) and above all equally emotionally challenging.

Same here. I am baffled that such "wishing" for something to happen and twisting facts to fit it happens with ASOIAF, because the beauty of the story is exactly that it's unexpected, sad, basically the "wishing" for something to happen should have died out long ago. At least for me it's like that. Yeah, when Iwas a young summer boy I wished Robb to kick Joff's ass. If that had happened instead of the RW, the story would be a lot, lot, LOT weaker and cheaper. It's a story (a marvelous one) and not wishful thinking.

[JJB]

Would be extremely odd. With so many hints and clues left in five books. And more to come...

[Lord Bresteil of the North]

I just want closure, tbh I don't care if R+L=J anymore.

[Warrior Queen]

Then I'd hope GRRM has an other damn good story for Jon's parentage...

If it turns out that some fishers wife or Wylla was his mother, i'd be really really disappointed!

[Tyrell_like_Squirrel]

Just in passing, I notice that a lot of R+L=/=J believers seem to be unable to let go of the first impressions they had after reading aGoT. Not just with Jon's apparent bastardy, There are still those who cling to their Jaime hate/belief of him as a complete villain continue to blame Sansa for telling Cersei about her father's plans, and despise Catelyn for her treatment of Jon.

Part of my enjoyment of this series is that it plays with my impressions, and it never ceases to amaze me when there are people that just don't get it. Sorry to burst the proverbial bubble, so to speak, but not everything presented in the first book is meant to be taken as solid and unchanging. Jon is most likely the son of Rheagar, Jaime is, at the very least, a complex moral character and very grey, Sansa was freaking 11 and naive as hell but has since had some serious character development, and Catelyn has a whole host of personal reasons that are very human as to why she would despise Jon Snow.

I think that those who continue to deny what's right in front of them should probably find another book series to read, because it won't get any less morally complex and characters and attitudes continue to change.

[NedStark2013]

A question is though Would Lyanna break her vow and Cheat on Robert. I know Robb went by his passions with Jeyne but a Stark normally sticks to there word. Unless Rhag raped Lyanna I am just not sure she would cheat unless she was hopelessly in love. An even more strange plot twist would be yes she was Kidnapped and Pregnant but Arthur Dayne maybe inpregnated her and thats why he fought Ned so hard.

However one does wonder what did she make Ned Promise if not Jon being a Targ. Unless she was worried about Arthur Daynes good name. And another theory could be that Arthur never died nor Lyanna and they ran off somewhere and thats why Ned said he bright her bones to Winterfell.

Why would Ned Care for Jon if parents were alive. Maybe Arthur was a bastard son of Aerys or something.

[Makes No Sansa]

If R+E=YG then I'll be fine.

[Cas Stark]

A question is though Would Lyanna break her vow and Cheat on Robert. I know Robb went by his passions with Jeyne but a Stark normally sticks to there word. Unless Rhag raped Lyanna I am just not sure she would cheat unless she was hopelessly in love. An even more strange plot twist would be yes she was Kidnapped and Pregnant but Arthur Dayne maybe inpregnated her and thats why he fought Ned so hard.

However one does wonder what did she make Ned Promise if not Jon being a Targ. Unless she was worried about Arthur Daynes good name. And another theory could be that Arthur never died nor Lyanna and they ran off somewhere and thats why Ned said he bright her bones to Winterfell.

Why would Ned Care for Jon if parents were alive. Maybe Arthur was a bastard son of Aerys or something.

Not all Starks were quite as solid and dutiful as Ned, though. Brandon the "wild wolf" and Ned talks about Lyanna as being wild and having the wolf blood.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

I'm curious, why do you hope it isn't true?

Because people apparently care less about good, thematic writing and more about sitting on the less popular side of the fence.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

There would have to be a REALLY good reason for Ned not to tell anyone who Jon's mother is, or not think about her!

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I totally missed Baelor Targaryen. Definitely the epitome of a true knight, but please see below for my counter-arguments.

Aegon I (debatable)-I don’t believe he was honorable. For three big reasons. Dragons. He killed people with dragons, so they really had no chance to win because he was power greedy.

Visenya Targaryen (debatable)-same as Aegon

Rhaenys Targaryen (debatable)-Same as Aegon

Aenys I-We now next to nothing for him. That is why I don’t count him.

Viserys I-I agree. I believe that he was more honorable than other Targs.

Daemon Blackfyre (debatable)-Not honorable. If you (and not you, you Daemon you) want your sister do something, elope with her. Something else than war anyway.

Baelor I-It’s still imprisonment, yes he may had done it for his faith but he done it nevertheless.

Rhaena Targaryen-Same as Aenys I

Aemon Targaryen (The Dragonknight)-I am not sure since all those rumors about him and his sister.

He may or may have not fathered the child of his sister but that's hardly anything new for the Targs now is it? That was a good one seriously. Great one. Well done

Daeron II- Same as Aenys I

Jaehaerys II- Same as Aenys I

Daenerys Targaryen (debatable)- No just no. I don’t like people who use mass murder and/or their gender as their weapon to gain power.

only Viserys I, Viserys II and Aegon the Dragonbane were not honourable. Daemon Blackfyre is also rather honourable.

Why Viserys I wasn't honorable? Why Aegon the Dragonbane wasn't honorable?

Daemon was not honorable.

My point is that we really don't know about the Targs and/or all of the Targs to know if they were honorable. So telling that "most of them are honorable" isn't quite right.

[Maxpey]

I'm curious, why do you hope it isn't true?

Because I loved the idea that Ned loved Jon's mother (I thought it was Ashara Dayne) so much that he chose to raise Jon, even though doing so would bring shame to the Stark name. I thought it was so poignant.

[lady m]

Because I loved the idea that Ned loved Jon's mother (I thought it was Ashara Dayne) so much that he chose to raise Jon, even though doing so would bring shame to the Stark name. I thought it was so poignant.

But he did. It was just the love of a brother to his sister. I actually think that's what makes it more sad, Ned never romantically truly loved another woman but Cat, but he would not tell her because of how much he loved his sister.

[Ser Wun Wun]

I actually wouldn't mind. I really wanted Ashara Dayne to be his mother and either Ned or Brandon Stark to be his father, I wanted him to be the new Sword of the Morning/Lord of Winterfell. But there are just too many hints for R+L=J, so I had to let that desire go.

[Jon Icefyre]

Because I loved the idea that Ned loved Jon's mother (I thought it was Ashara Dayne) so much that he chose to raise Jon, even though doing so would bring shame to the Stark name. I thought it was so poignant.

But that is exactly the case only instead of it being a romantic sort of love with Ashara, it was a brotherly love with Lyanna which as Viserys, Dany, Cersei and Tyrion have shown us is not always the case with family. It also explains why Ned seems to sympathize with the Targs more than you would originally assume a man in his position would.

[Ser Greg of House House]

As long as the outcome is as cool or cooler, I'd be ok. So would almost everyone, I supposed.

Your question should be:

"What if Jon is really dead and the first next POV is Howland Reed saying that Ned's promise was to 'take good care of Robert because Lyanna loved him and was really raped by Rhaegar. And oh, BTW, Jon Snow's mother is really that fisherman's daughter".

LOL That would be disappointing

[Michael Snow]

The thing is, while I do think R+L=J is true, if it's not, I won't be totally surprised. So, I'd sort of react with an enthusiastic, "Oh!" and keep reading feverishly.