R+L=J v.45

[swoosh stark]

Okay then. If Jon is truly a targaryen, then why does he have an affinity with direwolves instead of dragons?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

So technically there could have been more than 4?

It just makes mention of "the fourth." I suspect that if there were more than that, the text would have said so. As it is, we don't know why he didn't feel the fourth. Was he dead, warging, passed out, was the knife stopped, etc.

The three that we definitely know are a flesh wound to the throat, one in the belly and one in the back, through multiple layers of clothing. Basically, if GRRM wants Jon to just survive it, he could do so realistically.

[The guy from the Vale]

Because he's a Targaryen and a Stark, Ice and Fire? (->Warg and Dragonrider? Although I think Dragonriding is overrated)

[Ser Theodan the True]

Okay then. If Jon is truly a targaryen, then why does he have an affinity with direwolves instead of dragons?

How can one have an "affinity" for a creature that doesn't exist in Westeros (yet)?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Okay then. If Jon is truly a targaryen, then why does he have an affinity with direwolves instead of dragons?

1. He's as much of a Stark as he is a Targaryen.

2. We don't know for sure that what the Targs have with their dragons is as supernaturally "real" as what the Starks have with their wolves.

3. When has Jon ever been close enough to a dragon to have or not have an "affinity" for it?

[Jon Icefyre]

I don't understand why the majority of fans think that Jon is the son of rhaegar. If he really was his son, then why doesnt he have any targareyan features?

Because the Targaryen features are recessive. Rhaegar's first child, Rhaenys, also didn't have Targaryen features.

Also, Jon has Rhaegar's build - lean and lithe.

Also Baelor breakspear didn't have any Targ features either he like Rhaenys, had all of his mother's Dornish features and looked nothing like a Targ. @Swoosh stark you have to understand the reason most of the Targs throughout history seem to look the same is because the vast majority of them are the products of incest. But GRRM has given us multiple examples that show us when a Targ has a child with someone outside of the family there is a very good chance the children of that union won't have all of the typical Targ features and in some cases, they might not have any Targ features at all.

[Ser Theodan the True]

It just makes mention of "the fourth." I suspect that if there were more than that, the text would have said so. As it is, we don't know why he didn't feel the fourth. Was he dead, warging, passed out, was the knife stopped, etc.

The three that we definitely know are a flesh wound to the throat, one in the belly and one in the back, through multiple layers of clothing. Basically, if GRRM wants Jon to just survive it, he could do so realistically.

The only reason I wanted to know is because, obviously, that number tilted one way or another means life or death. Since it was written ambiguously I suppose one could believe that they stopped at 4, however it leaves my theory open, that he was stabbed multiple times. Just because he's only conscience for the first couple doesn't mean it didn't occur. I mainly just want the end of DWD to mean something, and if Jon doesn't die it makes that books conclusion a shit sandwich...

[swoosh stark]

Has anyone considered the possibility that maybe Jon isn't a stark, and that his resemblance to Ned is just a coincidence?

[Jon Icefyre]

Okay then. If Jon is truly a targaryen, then why does he have an affinity with direwolves instead of dragons?

This argument doesn't work at all. If R+L=J is true then Jon as the son of Lyanna would still be half Stark which means he has just as much Stark blood in him as Robb, Bran, Rickon, Sansa, and Arya who as the children of Catelyn Tully are also only half Stark as well, so if they all have/had special bonds with direwolfs even though they are all only half Stark, why wouldn't Jon have one as well? You can't say Jon doesn't have an affinity with dragons yet because Jon has never been near a dragon or even a dragon egg before in his life so we don't know what his relationship will be with dragons yet.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Has anyone considered the possibility that maybe Jon isn't a stark, and that his resemblance to Ned is just a coincidence?

No.

Kidding, IICR, Ned has called him his blood at some point (although maybe that was just the TV show).

[The guy from the Vale]

No.

Kidding, IICR, Ned has called him his blood at some point (although maybe that was just the TV show).

No, he also called Jon his blood when talking to Cat about Ashara.

[Jon Icefyre]

Has anyone considered the possibility that maybe Jon isn't a stark, and that his resemblance to Ned is just a coincidence?

Then what would he be?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The only reason I wanted to know is because, obviously, that number tilted one way or another means life or death. Since it was written ambiguously I suppose one could believe that they stopped at 4, however it leaves my theory open, that he was stabbed multiple times. Just because he's only conscience for the first couple doesn't mean it didn't occur. I mainly just want the end of DWD to mean something, and if Jon doesn't die it makes that books conclusion a shit sandwich...

I think maybe you should see how GRRM works it out before declaring something a "shit sandwich" just because it may or may not end the way you think it should. He'll with Jon whatever he damn well pleases.

[Ser Theodan the True]

I think maybe you should see how GRRM works it out before declaring something a "shit sandwich" just because it may or may not end the way you think it should. He'll with Jon whatever he damn well pleases.

Your right, and I don't mean to say DWD was bad. I just mean in previous books, like Bran in CoK, a character's "death" is resolved in the same book when they don't actually die. So if Jon isn't dead, then upon re-reading DWD the stunning conclusion loses its gravitas. It's really a narrative construction issue more than a plot issue. Also, since so many characters have been "reborn" my hope is that Jon is truly dead (even though he's my favorite) because after awhile readers become desensitized to these cliffhangers. "Shit sandwich" was just a funnier way of saying an uneventful conclusion...

[Alia of the knife]

I think the problem with Jon being "dead" now is that a good story, like a song or saga has to have a "rhythm" and while Jon may die at some point, dying now is not just a cliffhanger, it feels like a stumbling block, especially if we've been led to believe that Jon is pivotal.

I get that this is not the typical "one-hero" story, or that the hero follows the "bright and shiny path," but if Jon were to check out now, it would just feel, at this particular juncture with what we know, abrupt.

And besides, didn't GRRM say that Jon would know who his parents are by the end of the series?

[Faint]

1. He's as much of a Stark as he is a Targaryen.

This is not related to the point you were making but he is actually, genetically speaking, much more of a Targaryen than he is anything else. The Starks never practiced inbreeding as far as we know and certainly not to the degree the Targaryens did.

Not that it seems to matter much in the end; by the laws of this world, Jon and Daenerys should have serious physical disabilities given just how inbreed they are, but they seem to be perfectly normal.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

This is not related to the point you were making but he is actually, genetically speaking, much more of a Targaryen than he is anything else. The Starks never practiced inbreeding as far as we know and certainly not to the degree the Targaryens did.

Not that it seems to matter much in the end; by the laws of this world, Jon and Daenerys should have serious physical disabilities given just how inbreed they are, but they seem to be perfectly normal.

Fair enough, but the overall point stands. He has Stark in him just like the Tully kids do and ergo it ain't weird for him to get a wolf.

[jon stark I]

I think Martin won't make R+L=J because he said he hated those one chosen hero saving universe kind of book.This all seems very likely but as a fan I choose to believe A+N=J.I think GRRM might make a surprise agains like RW and R+L can be a red herring.But I have to admit R+L=J is 75% possible right now.

[Jon Icefyre]

I think Martin won't make R+L=J because he said he hated those one chosen hero saving universe kind of book.This all seems very likely but as a fan I choose to believe A+N=J.I think GRRM might make a surprise agains like RW and R+L can be a red herring.But I have to admit R+L=J is 75% possible right now.

So pretty much what you're saying is that you think R+L=J won't be true and you choose to believe A+N=J over it simply because you personally just don't like the idea of R+L=J.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think Martin won't make R+L=J because he said he hated those one chosen hero saving universe kind of book.This all seems very likely but as a fan I choose to believe A+N=J.I think GRRM might make a surprise agains like RW and R+L can be a red herring.But I have to admit R+L=J is 75% possible right now.

1. That is not what a red herring is.

2. He foretold the Red Wedding multiple times. Shocking, yes, but not really a "surprise."