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R+L=J v.45


Angalin

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And besides, didn't GRRM say that Jon would know who his parents are by the end of the series?

Good point. Even without that statement by GRRM to go by, I do not think it is likely that Jon is dead. I'm almost wondering if Mel made it happen somehow in order to force her prophecy in order for Jon to be "reborn". But I have a lot of ideas, some of which I've picked up from intelligent members of this forum, and I think most of them are more probable than him being dead. Of course my opinion is only worth so much.

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So pretty much what you're saying is that you think R+L=J won't be true and you choose to believe A+N=J over it simply because you personally just don't like the idea of R+L=J.

No I say I like A+N but I know R+L has more evidince and is more likely for that reason.R+L probably is true but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

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No I say I like A+N but I know R+L has more evidince and is more likely for that reason.R+L probably is true but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

Well that's pretty confusing considering the fact that the exact phrase you used to start off you're post was, "I think Martin won't make R+L=J because he said he hated those one chosen hero saving universe kind of book."

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Good point. Even without that statement by GRRM to go by, I do not think it is likely that Jon is dead. I'm almost wondering if Mel made it happen somehow in order to force her prophecy in order for Jon to be "reborn". But I have a lot of ideas, some of which I've picked up from intelligent members of this forum, and I think most of them are more probable than him being dead. Of course my opinion is only worth so much.

Mel trying to manipulate events would play in to what seems to be one of Martins messages on fanatacism, and trying to bring about events by way of manipulation rather than let things play our naturally.

And the irony would be that she helped bring forth a man that will probably end up destroying her.

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Well that's pretty confusing considering the fact that the exact phrase you used to start off you're post was, "I think Martin won't make R+L=J because he said he hated those one chosen hero saving universe kind of book."

Let me clear the situation there is a small probability that GRRM might not make it happen because in one of his interviews he says he hates stories with chosen heroes so maybe he mislead us intentially.But the written evidince strongly suggest R+L is true.So it might be true.

Despite that I like A+N because it gives Ned something I never saw he had: a free choice Ned always pushed into things like the rebellion or Cat or Lordship.I am not saying he didn't like them or did like them.

I like R+L too but not as much as A+N because both of these theories gave us some answers and advances character development.

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who invented R+L = J ?? he or she should be rewarded with Nobel prize and US government should give him place in the senate and royalty.

If you want to give money to everybody who came up with the theory, the US government will be bankrupt.

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Maybe Jon is a bastard of robert

Jon was born within a month from the Sack. The Rebellion lasted for about a year. Lyanna went missing before the Rebellion started. All in all, Jon was conceived several months into the Rebellion after Lyanna supposed abduction.

Seriously, do you believe that Lyanna would let Robert touch her?

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Let me clear the situation there is a small probability that GRRM might not make it happen because in one of his interviews he says he hates stories with chosen heroes so maybe he mislead us intentially.But the written evidince strongly suggest R+L is true.So it might be true.

Despite that I like A+N because it gives Ned something I never saw he had: a free choice Ned always pushed into things like the rebellion or Cat or Lordship.I am not saying he didn't like them or did like them.

I like R+L too but not as much as A+N because both of these theories gave us some answers and advances character development.

Yeah, George has talked about the problem of chosen heroes in stories. I particularly recall that he has often spoken of good men not necessarily making good kings, and used the example of Aragorn. George wondered if everything was going to be OK just because the lost king had returned, and wanted to know if Aragorn has a good tax policy.

That doesn't mean that Jon cannot be Rhaegar's heir, just that we should expect a subversion to the tale of the lost heir saving the world and taking his rightful place. So far Jon is a subversion in that any successes he has had in saving the world have absolutely nothing to do with his royal heritage, but that is only a minor subversion as many 'chosen heirs' do not come into their own until after they have done their worthy deeds. I suspect the real subversion will be that even after saving the world and learning of his true heritage Jon will never come into his own, because Westeros is a place of hard politics and nobody will be willing to cede him the power they have all fought so hard for.

Okay then. If Jon is truly a targaryen, then why does he have an affinity with direwolves instead of dragons?

Pet peeve of mine, should there really be an expectation that Targaryens have an affinity with dragons? In Westeros' history Targaryens are the only people that owned dragons, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are any better at handling dragons that anybody else. Dany certainly has a magical connection with her dragons, but she is their mother, if she had been non-Targaryen and had hatched them she would probably still have that connection.

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I think Martin won't make R+L=J because he said he hated those one chosen hero saving universe kind of book.This all seems very likely but as a fan I choose to believe A+N=J.I think GRRM might make a surprise agains like RW and R+L can be a red herring.But I have to admit R+L=J is 75% possible right now.

It was already made. Some 17 years ago.

Not specifically directed to you, let me just say a couple of things:

1.ASOIAF is a grand business franchise, and something that GRRM has been doing for 17 years. He won't change something because he read something on the internet, that's ridiculous.

2. Liking is not necessary for the truth to be such. Whatever it is. I didn't like the RW. Does it mean it did not happen? The "What I like" argument just doesn't hold water if you're older than 9.

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I honestly don't think the "subversion" or bittersweet ending that GRRM was talking about will be that Jon won't be ably to rally enough support to rule or that he somehow will not make for a good leader, as I think Jon has alredy shown very promising potential as a good leader. I really think the main focus of the bittersweet ending will be on the two main characters of the story Jon and Dany. The path of fire(Dany) and the path of Ice (Jon) and who's path will end up being the glorious one. With Jon we have the lost heir, the boy that's been looked down upon and has lived the tough life of a bastard but has turned himself into a true leader and commander all the while secretely being the blood of royalty. With Dany you have the exiled heir, the girl who grew up as this shy, sweet, and innocent girl only to transform herself into a independent powerful Queen who's constantly faced with challenges of ruling as a woman, ruiling as a foreigner, and being hunted because of what she is(Targ/mother of dragons). Yet her final goal is to do what no woman has ever done before which is to take Westeros by conquest as the ruiling Queen.

While I've noticed the vast majority seem to think that Jon and Dany will join forces or somehow come together at the end, which does make sense as a probable outcome for various reasons. But I'm inclined to think the opposite might actually happen and when they do meet each other it will be as enemies. With part of GRRM's bittersweet ending being the death of one of these two main characters who both seem to have heroine paths, yet at the end they will clash to see who's path was truly the path destined for success. Leaving one heroine victorious and the other heroine dead.

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I know its possible to inherit most of your mother's features, but I cannot point out a single biological or personality trait that, from what we know of him, was exhibited by Rhaegar. Jon doesn't have a Targaryen feature biologically, he has Ned's personality - the shyness, the skill at leading, the duty-bound approach.

I'm not saying this disproves RLJ, but it undermines it a bit in my eyes.

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It was already made. Some 17 years ago.

Not specifically directed to you, let me just say a couple of things:

1.ASOIAF is a grand business franchise, and something that GRRM has been doing for 17 years. He won't change something because he read something on the internet, that's ridiculous.

2. Liking is not necessary for the truth to be such. Whatever it is. I didn't like the RW. Does it mean it did not happen? The "What I like" argument just doesn't hold water if you're older than 9.

Emboldened assumes that he had absolutely planned every detail for Jon to be Rhaegar's son form the outset. While this isn't impossible, a more logical thing to do, just in case GRRM himself comes to dislike the idea, is to put a few red herrings in the first book so he can change his mind later if need be

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I think the problem with Jon being "dead" now is that a good story, like a song or saga has to have a "rhythm" and while Jon may die at some point, dying now is not just a cliffhanger, it feels like a stumbling block, especially if we've been led to believe that Jon is pivotal.

I get that this is not the typical "one-hero" story, or that the hero follows the "bright and shiny path," but if Jon were to check out now, it would just feel, at this particular juncture with what we know, abrupt.

And besides, didn't GRRM say that Jon would know who his parents are by the end of the series?

A POV in the afterlife? :P

(Good thing no one has answered that line with mine yet. Some would dare, I suppose.)

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Emboldened assumes that he had absolutely planned every detail for Jon to be Rhaegar's son form the outset. While this isn't impossible, a more logical thing to do, just in case GRRM himself comes to dislike the idea, is to put a few red herrings in the first book so he can change his mind later if need be

Remember that at the outset this was planned as a trilogy and as originally conceived should have been completed a very long time ago. That's why there is so much significant stuff packed into AGoT. Now granted that in the 20 years since he started writing he's had plenty of wriggle room for alternate outcomes it didn't start out that way. It was mapped out for just three volumes and the clues planted accordingly in the first one.

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Emboldened assumes that he had absolutely planned every detail for Jon to be Rhaegar's son form the outset. While this isn't impossible, a more logical thing to do, just in case GRRM himself comes to dislike the idea, is to put a few red herrings in the first book so he can change his mind later if need be

GRRM has presented us with the mystery of Jon's parentage. One thing mystery writers never do is present a mystery without already knowing the solution. The result would be a rambling mess.

@Black Crow and @FL make excellent points. AGoT was heavily top loaded with clues because the expectation was to wrap it up it in book three. If the series has been the trilogy it was planned to be, we would have known the solution to the mystery years ago. Because of the additional books and the elimination of the five year gap, we've seen the clues dialed back a bit. But they are still present, for those who look hard enough.

Eta- As for Jon's resemblance to Rhaegar, on the last page of this thread it was noted that they share the same build- tall and lithe. Also, in previous versions others have observed personality traits in Jon that appear to be more Targ than Stark. His quick temper for one. I also don't think Jon is particularly shy- he is reserved, as was Rhaegar. Rhaegar was also a leader who inspired the devotion of a select circle of friends. And sharing personality traits with Ned will be as much a result of nurture as nature.

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I know its possible to inherit most of your mother's features, but I cannot point out a single biological or personality trait that, from what we know of him, was exhibited by Rhaegar. Jon doesn't have a Targaryen feature biologically, he has Ned's personality - the shyness, the skill at leading, the duty-bound approach.

I'm not saying this disproves RLJ, but it undermines it a bit in my eyes.

Let me quote something I posted a few threads back, discussing similarities between Jon and Rhaegar (in brackets lines from the books referring to Rhaegar):

Jon is a skilled warrior ("I will require a sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior." [...] He did it well, for he did everything well).

He is smart, stubborn ("Able, above all. Determined, deliberate, dutiful, single-minded").

He knows about tactics and politics and also how to form plans and execute them ('King Aerys became convinced that his son was conspiring to depose him, that Whent's tourney was but a ploy to give Rhaegar a pretext for meeting with as many great lords as could be brought together').

Jon, like Rhaegar, was born in grief and melancholic at times. He is irremediably incapable to give up mercy and compassion for duty (as was Rhaegar... KotLT docet). He is inclined to follow his heart even at the cost of breaking oaths. Oh yes, he reminds me of someone... After all He was his father's son. Wasn't he? Wasn't he?

There so much more than Ned in Jon... beyond nurture, nature. A brooding complexity which is great part of his appeal as character.

He IS a Stark, with Stark blood. He was brought up as a Stark. But thanks the gods he is not a bi-dimensional carbon copy of Ned. It's in the tense moments when he struggles with his 'nurture legacy' (and echoes of a 'nature legacy' affirm themselves) that he fully owns the scene. Full rounded characters are never simply something. Not black or white. Not Ice or Fire. They rather integrate contradictions and complexities, most of times at a dire personal cost. Yeah, Ice... AND Fire.

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