R+L=J v.45

[jon stark I]

Let me quote something I posted a few threads back, discussing similarities between Jon and Rhaegar (in brackets lines from the books referring to Rhaegar):

Jon is a skilled warrior ("I will require a sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior." [...] He did it well, for he did everything well).

He is smart, stubborn ("Able, above all. Determined, deliberate, dutiful, single-minded").

He knows about tactics and politics and also how to form plans and execute them ('King Aerys became convinced that his son was conspiring to depose him, that Whent's tourney was but a ploy to give Rhaegar a pretext for meeting with as many great lords as could be brought together').

Jon, like Rhaegar, was born in grief and melancholic at times. He is irremediably incapable to give up mercy and compassion for duty (as was Rhaegar... KotLT docet). He is inclined to follow his heart even at the cost of breaking oaths. Oh yes, he reminds me of someone... After all He was his father's son. Wasn't he? Wasn't he?

There so much more than Ned in Jon... beyond nurture, nature. A brooding complexity which is great part of his appeal as character.

He IS a Stark, with Stark blood. He was brought up as a Stark. But thanks the gods he is not a bi-dimensional carbon copy of Ned. It's in the tense moments when he struggles with his 'nurture legacy' (and echoes of a 'nature legacy' affirm themselves) that he fully owns the scene. Full rounded characters are never simply something. Not black or white. Not Ice or Fire. They rather integrate contradictions and complexities, most of times at a dire personal cost. Yeah, Ice... AND Fire.

Those are also Neds characteristics.Jon is raised by Ned so I never heard personality being a genetic thing before.There are lots of evidince for R+L this doesn't proves it for me.

[FrozenFire3]

Those are also Neds characteristics.Jon is raised by Ned so I never heard personality being a genetic thing before.There are lots of evidince for R+L this doesn't proves it for me.

Well, Ned let the blade fall when it was about duty. That's the reason Jon questions himself when he decides to spare Ygritte's life...

It's not proof per se, just adds a few different nuances to Jon's character. He is NOT Ned's carbon copy.

[nirolo]

Well, Ned let the blade fall when it was about duty. That's the reason Jon questions himself when he decides to spare Ygritte's life...

It's not proof per se, just adds a few different nuances to Jon's character. He is NOT Ned's carbon copy.

You are 100% right. But who is Ned's carbon copy?

In Catelyn's eyes Jon resembles Ned more than his true born children. And Jon's personality is no less Ned's than his other siblings.

I don't think physical appearances and personality traits are the things we should be looking at when trying to support or defend LRJ.

[jon stark I]

Well, Ned let the blade fall when it was about duty. That's the reason Jon questions himself when he decides to spare Ygritte's life...

It's not proof per se, just adds a few different nuances to Jon's character. He is NOT Ned's carbon copy.

Yes Jon is learning from his mistakes and doesn't give that much second chances as far as we saw.Which is a good thing because all Stark children must be like that.No second chances Edd fetch me some blocks chop chop.....

[Black Crow]

As this one's getting a bit out of hand I've taken the liberty of opening R+L=J v.46

[jon stark I]

You are 100% right. But who is Ned's carbon copy?

In Catelyn's eyes Jon resembles Ned more than his true born children. And Jon's personality is no less Ned's than his other siblings.

I don't think physical appearances and personality traits are the things we should be looking at when trying to support or defend LRJ.

Agreed.When we do that it goes far beyond evidince and starts to sound like fortunetelling a little bit.Lets stick to written evidince . :cool4:

[FrozenFire3]

:agree: Clues are more textual.

Just addressing the 'he has Ned's personality - the shyness, the skill at leading, the duty-bound approach. I'm not saying this disproves RLJ, but it undermines it a bit in my eyes' issue ;)

[Woftis]

How much do we know about Jon being weened by Wylla and how likely this was?

Just thinking, Ned turns up with Arthur's sword: "I've just killed Ser Arthur, fancy nursing my son though?" - seems pretty unlikely. Whereas, "I've killed Ser Arthur, he died protecting the Targ heir, will you help?" seems a bit more plausible.

Does the whole Wylla milk mother thing mean Ned was at Starfall for a while and do we think the Dayne's are aware of Jon's true parentage? Sorry I don't remember this very well from the book.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Lyanna was sick, weak (holding on for Ned to come to make her the promise of not outing Jon to Robert).

It's likely, with a Dayne among them and Starfall so near the ToJ, that one of their wetnurses, Wylla, was there. She most likely travelled back to Starfall with Ned (and Jon), and maybe Ned stayed there for a while to arrange another wetnurse and to create a cover story for turning up with a bastard later on in Winterfell. A cover story that is still being told around Dorne these days, so Rhaegar's child will be safe.

[Woftis]

I suspect so, I really don't see the loyalist Dayne's offering Ned any hospitality after killing Ser Arthur unless it was to protect Targ Jon.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

How much do we know about Jon being weened by Wylla and how likely this was?

Just thinking, Ned turns up with Arthur's sword: "I've just killed Ser Arthur, fancy nursing my son though?" - seems pretty unlikely. Whereas, "I've killed Ser Arthur, he died protecting the Targ heir, will you help?" seems a bit more plausible.

Does the whole Wylla milk mother thing mean Ned was at Starfall for a while and do we think the Dayne's are aware of Jon's true parentage? Sorry I don't remember this very well from the book.

To be clear, we know exactly three things about Wylla.

1. Ned has told Robert or allowed Robert to believe that she is Jon's mother

2. She was Edric Dayne's wet nurse

3. Edric Dayne thinks she is Jon's mother and that therefore they are milk brothers

That said, most believe she was somehow involved at the ToJ. There was an extensive conversation about that earlier in this thread. Some also believe she was the wet nurse who accompanied Jon back to WF. IMO, she remained in Starfall and is one of the few people living who knows the truth of Jon's parentage (the others being Howland Reed and possibly- if they're alive- Benjen Stark and Ashara Dayne)

[jon stark I]

It is unlikely Ned trusted Wylla with that secret or anyone in Starfall they may be Targeryan supporters and their brother might be AArthur but this is a huge secret and if someone wanted to get a reward from King BOB then Jon would have been history.Maybe Ashara really gave birth to a boy and Jon was born at the same time so noone could have tell the difference maybe they did a baby switch for a little time for baby Jon.I have a little theory but English is not my native language and heory is a little complicated.

I don't think Jon was carried to Starfall by Ned I think if R+L=j then Jon was probably at Starfall all the time brought by Arthur Dayne and Jon was milk brother of Asharas son or someone elses son.

[FittleLinger]

What are your feelings towards the theory that Benjen took the black out of guilt that he knew Lyanna escaped with Rhaegar willingly?

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

It is unlikely Ned trusted Wylla with that secret or anyone in Starfall they may be Targeryan supporters and their brother might be AArthur but this is a huge secret and if someone wanted to get a reward from King BOB then Jon would have been history.Maybe Ashara really gave birth to a boy and Jon was born at the same time so noone could have tell the difference maybe they did a baby switch for a little time for baby Jon.I have a little theory but English is not my native language and heory is a little complicated.

I don't think Jon was carried to Starfall by Ned I think if R+L=j then Jon was probably at Starfall all the time brought by Arthur Dayne and Jon was milk brother of Asharas son or someone elses son.

Then why were the KG at the ToJ and how/why did Arthur Dayne make a trip to Starfall with an infant and return to the ToJ to confront Ned and his party? If you are going to say they were guarding Lyanna, surely two KG would have been enough and Arthur would have stayed with the child? I'm sorry but I don't think logic or the timeline allow for this. Also, read the earlier pages of this thread for extensive discussion of this very topic.

Eta- If Wylla was already at the ToJ when Ned arrived it wouldn't have been a matter of trusting her, but of containing her and minimizing the impact of her knowledge. Involving her directly in the cover up would be one way to do that. Also, there is the possibility that her biological child was given some sort of preferential treatment or advancement in exchange for her cooperation.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

What are your feelings towards the theory that Benjen took the black out of guilt that he knew Lyanna escaped with Rhaegar willingly?

I think Benjen knows something. Whether it's because Ned told him after the fact or he had some knowledge about Lyanna's "escape", or both I'm not sure. He was close to Lyanna, but it's also commented on in TKotLT story that he was interested in the NW. So either works for me. He was still young enough to have been in a position to have obtained some knowledge accidentally also, so the guilt aspect could definitely be a factor. Whichever it was, I believe he is alive and has been held "offstage" by the author because he has knowledge which will clear up a lot of the mystery.

[jon stark I]

Arthur staying with the child would be too suspicious and why would he stayed with the child?He gives Jon to Ashara and leaves.Ashara trying to protect Arthurs honor gives Jon to Wylla with her son or someone elses son never telling who his father is.Jon being at TOJ is too dangerous for him.This is the reason people argue about R+L if Jon was at TOJ then how is that protecting him.For all we know someone could have appeared with an army and killed Jon.My theory explains where Jon was and Why KG remained TOJ.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Arthur staying with the child would be too suspicious and why would he stayed with the child he gives Jon to Ashara and leaves.Ashara trying to protect Arthurs honor gives Jon to Wylla with her son or someone elses son never telling who his father is.Because Jon beng at TOj is too dangerous for him.This is the reason people argue about R+L if Jon was at TOJ then how is that protecting him.For all we know someone could have appeared with an army and killed Jon.My theory explains where Jon was and Why G remained TOJ.

Please read the discussion of this upthread. Every point you make has been addressed and IMO refuted. The ToJ was an abandoned watchtower in a remote area, specifically chosen by Rhaegar (we assume) for those reasons. It is needlessly complicating things to assume removing a newborn from his mother to make a dangerous mountain journey from a remote, concealed location to a place that was full of people who would naturally question where the child Arthur appeared with came from. I'm sorry but this theory just does not make sense.

[FrozenFire3]

I'm not sure if the following has already been brought up... Re-reading ASoS, I came accorss a passage with, IMHO, a very strong R+L=J allegoric subtext.

I don't know how I could have missed it the first time, considering my Classical education :dunce: The bulb lit up reading a name, Tristifer, that in Latin means 'he who carries sadness'.

The scene takes place in Oldstones, at the presence of Robb, Cat and a... sepulcher where king Tristifer is buried.

I'll highlight a few words/passages and then add a few annotations.

Yet in the center of what once would have been the castle's yard, a great carved sepulcher still rested, half hidden in waist-high brown grass amongst a stand of ash. The lid of the sepulcher had been carved into a likeness of the man whose bones lay beneath, but the rain and the wind had done their work. The king had worn a beard, they could see, but otherwise his face was smooth and featurless, with only vague suggestions of a mouth, a nose, eyes, and the crown about the temples. His hands folded over the shaft of a stone warhammer that lay upon his chest. Once the warhammer would have been carved with runes that told its name and history, but all that the centuries had worn away. The stone itself was cracked and crumbling at the corners, discolored here and there by spreading white splotches of lichen, while wild roses crept up over the king's feet almost to his chest.

[...]

She had not forgotten; she had not wanted to look at it, yet there it was. "A Snow is not a Stark."

[...]

Grey Wind leapt up atop King Tristifer's crypt, his teeth bared.

The first simplest metaphor is the one related to a story buried or better half-hidden... in a crypt.

Brown (Stark/Lyanna's hair colouring) grass spreads amongst ash (Targaryen/Rhaegar's one).

He who carries sadness (Rhaegar), rests with a stone warhammer upon his chest (Robert's).

Wild roses (Lyanna) creeps up over the king's feet almost to his chest (they touch his heart).

This tale immediately precedes Robb and Cat discussion about Jon's legitimization, including a few Targaryen's history references.

It takes place in Oldstones where Jenny came from. We know that she was friends with a woods witch (the Ghost of High Heart) who prophesied that The Prince That Was Promised would be born from the line of Aerys and Rhaella. We also know that Duncan Targaryen, son of Aegon V, gave up his crown for Jenny. A crown is visible on the sepulcher about the temples of a king whose features are undefinied. Ergo we do not know his face. Yet. But a direwolf stands atop like a fierce and proud sigil...

[The guy from the Vale]

Woah, awesome catch, FrozenFire!

[FittleLinger]

Great one, Frozen Fire!