R+L=J v.45

[nirolo]

Excuse me?! You're saying that Ned killed a non-combatant(s) in cold blood?

Besides, "they found" him is directly from the book, so I do not understand why you dispute that and insist that Lyanna must have been left on her own. Childbirth is a risky business even with modern medicine. Lyanna was still very young, and with young mothers, the risk is even increased. Add to it the possible effects if the child was in a wrong position, and you get massive tearing and bleeding, which is bound to be followed by infection. Without strong systemic ATBs (not just moulds, sorry), there is no help to that, even if a maester or midwife was present (most probably arranged from Starfall, perhaps even weeks ahead).

BTW, if you claim that Ned left ToJ just with HR and Jon (which, IIRC, has no basis in the books), a little logistic problem: how did they feed the baby? "Close" Starfall still means days to weeks of journey. - Perhaps one Wylla, who claims to be Jon's mother and seems to be a trusted servant of the Daynes, was arranged as a midwife/wetnurse at ToJ, and was one of those "they".

Could you point me to the quote you are referring to?

Arrogant, hopeful, delusional, confident say what you will but Rhaegar did think he would survive the war and return, see his comments that Jamie recalls in AFFC: "When this battle's done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made."

Good Call. I stand corrected.

[UVA]

'voilà', I hope. Otherwise I don't know why you're writing about larger violins. ;)

And great post as usual, FrozenFire!

Lol, yes! Damn iPhone autocorrect!

[Ruby Chevrolet]

Exactly Jon Icefyre.

And the truth is, people DON'T move. Most people in Westeros (and the Middle Ages this saga is based on), live and die within a mile of where they're born.

The only reasons people move is they've been either promoted or banished by the king, married off to another family, or another city has a market for your talents. They don't just decide they'd rather live in White Harbor and hire the boys at Riverrun U-Haul.

I'm not sure about medieval times but in Westeros people move around a lot. My theory is that Ashara Dayne encountered Eddard during the rebellion, specifically at Harrenhal, and Jon was the result. No one can deny that Eddard traveled the length of the Seven Kingdoms. He went from Wintetfell to the Vale as a small child. He made it as far as Dorne as a young man and to the Iron Islands after that. There is no question Ashara was well-traveled too. She is from Dorne but she made it at least as far north as Harrenhal for a tournament. Other nobles (like Obery Martell) went that far. Jorah Mormont got far enough away from Bear Island in the far north to meet and marry a woman from Dorne. Petyr Baelish was from the Fingers but fostered at Riverrun. Lord Varys found his way to Kin's Landing from another continent. And don't forget Catelyn Stark, who went from Winterfell to King's Landing for a five minute chat with her husband, then hit the Eyrie, Riverrun, Bitterbridge and Storm's End in quick succession.

I also offered a short rebuttal to the statement that "timing" rules out the fisherman's daughter as a possible mother for Jon, which is that the fisherman's daughter could have spent some time on the road with Eddard. Commoners do indeed move around. Shae did it. So did Tanselle-too-Tall. The sailor who took Theon back to Pyle had a daughter who wanted to jump ship at Pyke, leaving her father, and become Theon's concubine.

So, it's safe to say people do travel away from their homes in Westeros.

[hwyl]

So, it's safe to say people do travel away from their homes in Westeros.

Well, everything points to the fact that Westeros is a typical medieval type society in that over 95% of its citizens were peasants or serfs. What the book is mostly about is the incestuously tiny noble elite that probably at least partly was relatively mobile over the various stages of their lives. (Sometimes I do wish that Martin would devote at least some real attention to the regular people whose toil is the real foundation of the realm.)

[Ser Creighton]

Ppl don't move the way you're suggesting they did. Also i'm starting to think that you actually think Jon has two mothers or something, because one second you're arguing and giving a theory about Ashara as if she's definitely the mother, and the next second you're arguing for Wylla as if she's definitely the mother make up you're mind. It's one thing to say that both are a possibility but to argue both with such a strong resolve as if both are for sure the mother which is obviously impossible, shows us that you're really just looking for any possible way to not have to accept R+L=J or even acknowledge the fact that whether you like it or not, it is by far the most likely scenario in terms of who Jon's parents are which is something that even the most resolved of R+L=J detractors admit all the time. If you want to argue for Ashara and Wylla fine go ahead, but to honestly think that the theories of Ashara or Wylla being Jon's mother are even close to the same level of legitimacy/validity of R+L=J is beyond obsurd.

BTW @FrozenFire3 that post was absolutely epic! :bowdown:

Haw that post was actually horrible and based mostly on speculation and one readers perception. It had multiple false statements, and has next to no supporting evidence placed in the post. I was going to reply to it but figured why waste my time with someone who sees only what they want to see.

[Jon Icefyre]

Haw that post was actually horrible and based mostly on speculation and one readers perception. It had multiple false statements, and has next to no supporting evidence placed in the post. I was going to reply to it but figured why waste my time with someone who sees only what they want to see.

Which post are you refering to exactly? Because if it's FrozenFire3 I don't really see what's so speculative about sharing what the cast of GOT has said in interviews about who they think Jon's parents are? I mean this obviously isn't being made up lol. Now the later part of the post about being able to figure out the parents from GOT alone, is I guess what can be argued with because we'll never know for sure if that is indeed true until GRRM finally does reveal the parents. But what I was refering to was the fact that it's pretty cool to see the GOT cast opinions on who Jon's parents are...

[dragontamer]

I also offered a short rebuttal to the statement that "timing" rules out the fisherman's daughter as a possible mother for Jon, which is that the fisherman's daughter could have spent some time on the road with Eddard. Commoners do indeed move around. Shae did it. So did Tanselle-too-Tall. The sailor who took Theon back to Pyle had a daughter who wanted to jump ship at Pyke, leaving her father, and become Theon's concubine.

So, it's safe to say people do travel away from their homes in Westeros.

Well I suppose in fiction all is possible and having that in mind in a series full of mysteries and riddles it is only expected that hundreds of theories will be presented by fans. Some more good than others and some better supported than others. For me all are acceptable.

But to say something based solely on the argument that it could have happened because no pov character was present to witness that it didn’t; isn’t really an argument.

And the whole thing with the names is just unrelated.

You asked in page 1 of this thread :

“Think about it like this. If a common boy named Hoster shows up and you have to guess where he is from, what will you say?”

I ‘ll ask back. If a common boy named Theon or Gerold shows up and you have to guess where he is from, what will you say?

[WesterosGypsy]

I have not read through all 45 threads on this topic, so maybe it's been mentioned before....

But has anyone else noticed how Jon's direwolf is different from the others? The Stark banner is a Grey Direwolf. With the other Stark children, their wolves were typical of the Stark banner - grey or black. Jon's is different....even being found "separately" from the others. His wolf is silvery white (a nod to Targ coloring?) with red eyes (dragon eyes)?

[Alia of the knife]

Finn Jones is adorkable ;)

Shall we recap what has been said - so far - about R+L=J by cast members?

Sean Bean:

But he is calculating, in at least one matter: Jon Snow’s parentage. When it comes to Jon Snow’s mother, Ned is extremely tight-lipped, save for his one terse comment to King Robert. The fandom is teeming with theories that Jon isn't Ned's bastard at all.

That’s another twist [to come]. It’s a great conundrum. Who do you think it is?

My money’s on the mother being Ned’s dead sister and the father being Rhaegar Targaryen. If Ned swore to protect his dead sister’s son from his own best friend, the best way of doing that would have been to claim him as his own and take him in.

Ned really knows who [Jon’s parents are], but he can’t let on. That’s why it’s such a moving moment, those poignant scenes I have with Kit Harington [who plays Jon], because I couldn’t say what I really thought. There are so many things I could have said, because there is a love there between the two of them, but I can’t express it as overtly as I can with the other children, who I can hold and kiss. Even if I were his true father, I can’t talk about it for fear of offending my wife, who’s really bitter about this. So it’s really a cruel situation. Through no fault of his own, Ned took on a lot by taking Jon in.

Kit Harington:

Have you theorized at all about his parentage? Fans love to speculate that Jon is actually the son of Ned’s sister Lyanna and Rhaegar Targaryen.

I’ve had that theory as well. It’s one that I have to keep shoving out of my head because it will, I think subconsciously, change the way I play him and change how I see him. I don’t know who his mother is. George hasn’t told me. I don’t know his parentage. It’s all still in George’s head. So, it’s one of those things that I have to be careful with. I would passionately love that to be the case. I really would. I think that’s a fantastic twist. But we don’t know. I think there are clues all the way through in Jon himself and maybe that is a clue.

Alfie Allen:

What did you ask him (GRRM) about in return?

You know, I asked him about who Jon Snow's real parents were, and he told me. I can't say who, but I can tell you that it involves a bit of a Luke Skywalker situation. It will all come to fruition eventually. The whole thing with all the fight over proper succession is partly inspired by the War of the Roses in the late 1400s, and back then, to ensure pedigree, the monarchies were kind of inbred. It's definitely fucked up, but it definitely happened back then, so that's why there's incest with the Targaryen line. It's toned down, though.

Sophie Turner:

Richard Madden and Kit Harington said the guys in the cast text each other to share theories and geek out. Do the girls get in on that action?

We're all really close. We constantly Skype. And I was just having a conversation with Emilia about all this, because I have all these theories about who Jon Snow's mother and father really are. I think that his mother is Lyanna Stark, Ned's sister, and I think his father is not Ned, but that Ned just took him on, that his father was actually Rhaegar Targaryen.

As for D&D, we have tons of interview we have already linked/quoted (Emmy panel being the last one).

I'd add this tidbit from the NYTimes:

Recognizing that the novels couldn’t be condensed into films, Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss sought to adapt them as a television series for HBO, but had to pass several trials along the way. The first was winning over Mr. Martin in a lunchtime meeting that was mostly collegial, but where Mr. Weiss and Mr. Benioff were quizzed about the parents of Jon Snow, a “Game of Thrones” character of mysterious lineage. (“We had a whole conversation about it,” Mr. Benioff said, “and George was pleased that we got the answer right.”)

To be read together with this post of Ran (Elio):

Lets just say that if you can't figure out who Jon's parents might plausibly be from AGoT -- and AGoT alone -- then the theory doesn't work.

[...]

Because according to the editor of the series, after reading the manuscript of AGoT, GRRM asked her if she had an idea as to who Jon's parents were. She guessed right.

This, from the annotations she made for the Subtext edition of AGoT (Subtext is an ipad app).

This leaves many possible candidates, but suffice it to say, no one who has just read the manuscript of AGoT before any of the other books have seen the light of day would ever, for a moment, consider Mance Rayder as a potential father to Jon.

Great compilation, and thanks for taking the time to do it.

Sometimes for a story to move forward, the unknown variable like that type of mysterious information has to be assimilated so that it does not become a distraction in of itself.

We can then follow Jon on his journey, knowing that it has been confirmed, and wait with baited breath how that information affects him.

I think the real mystery will be with Aegon, and that we may never really know who he is.

[Ygrain]

I'm not sure about medieval times but in Westeros people move around a lot. My theory is that Ashara Dayne encountered Eddard during the rebellion, specifically at Harrenhal, and Jon was the result. No one can deny that Eddard traveled the length of the Seven Kingdoms. He went from Wintetfell to the Vale as a small child. He made it as far as Dorne as a young man and to the Iron Islands after that. There is no question Ashara was well-traveled too. She is from Dorne but she made it at least as far north as Harrenhal for a tournament. Other nobles (like Obery Martell) went that far. Jorah Mormont got far enough away from Bear Island in the far north to meet and marry a woman from Dorne. Petyr Baelish was from the Fingers but fostered at Riverrun. Lord Varys found his way to Kin's Landing from another continent. And don't forget Catelyn Stark, who went from Winterfell to King's Landing for a five minute chat with her husband, then hit the Eyrie, Riverrun, Bitterbridge and Storm's End in quick succession.

I also offered a short rebuttal to the statement that "timing" rules out the fisherman's daughter as a possible mother for Jon, which is that the fisherman's daughter could have spent some time on the road with Eddard. Commoners do indeed move around. Shae did it. So did Tanselle-too-Tall. The sailor who took Theon back to Pyle had a daughter who wanted to jump ship at Pyke, leaving her father, and become Theon's concubine.

So, it's safe to say people do travel away from their homes in Westeros.

Sounds like Ned was some backpacker or something, completely ignoring the reason for which he travelled - in most cases, war that he led, and an "abducted" relative. I' most curious to see how this applies to Ashara - and please, try something morme plausible than looking for her brother, as if Sword of the Morning could prepare his breakfast cereals without his sis or something.

[FrozenFire3]

Haw that post was actually horrible and based mostly on speculation and one readers perception. It had multiple false statements, and has next to no supporting evidence placed in the post. I was going to reply to it but figured why waste my time with someone who sees only what they want to see.

:blink: I don't understand what could have stirred such a bitter reaction... I merely assembled - quoting verbatim - cast members/producers/Westeros.org founders' interviews/articles/posts. Their thoughts on the topic. So please, don't blame the messenger. I'm on this forum for fun and for improving my... English ^_^ Life already gives us enough unexpected, unasked for conflict.

Great compilation, and thanks for taking the time to do it.

Sometimes for a story to move forward, the unknown variable like that type of mysterious information has to be assimilated so that it does not become a distraction in of itself.

We can then follow Jon on his journey, knowing that it has been confirmed, and wait with baited breath how that information affects him.

I think the real mystery will be with Aegon, and that we may never really know who he is.

Absolutely. It's not important who or what (GRMM's decision at the end of the day) but how. The narrative coherence and the emotional impact on the reader when (if?) the truth(s) will come out.

[corbon]

But it really undercuts your criticism of the theory that the fisherman's daughter/Wylla spent time in Eddard's camp after Eddard's wedding. Your criticism is that someone would have noticed and talked. Doesn't that apply equally to the group of people you believe to have been at the Tower of Joy with Lyanna? Someone would have talked?

This is just silly.

One situation is the Lord and General of an army having a camp follower while on campaign. People notice, lots of them and those lots and lots and lots hav of peoplee no reason not to talk.

The other situation is a tiny group of people, as few as three, who are all committed to a secret (Ned and HR because its Lyanna's babe, any orginal Targ loyalists like selected Dayne retainers/midwife/maester/servants etc there because its a Targ babe). there is hardly any people and they all have very good reason not to talk.

Now I need the like button! This is key to the theory that Ashara Dayne (or Wylla/fisherman's daughter) was the mother. People move.

Sure, people move or can. Some of them at least. But you still have to have half a brain about this. People move for reasons, not to random and illogical places, and moving is often noticeable, as well as notable.

For Ashara to be the mother you have the very strange scenario of a prominent and committed Targ loyalist present in the general's bed during a time of war, while with the army, and nobody noticing or commenting. Its beyond ridiculous.

For the stepstones girl to be Jon's mother you have a bedwarmer hanging around with Ned with the army for several months, then getting sent, not to her home or to Winterfell, but to the opposite end of the continent in enemy territory after getting pregnant. And again, no one notices or comments. And then she fortuitously turns up at the same location as Ned finds Lyanna. Its even further beyond ridiculous.

[GoldenVale]

I see that you really love to draw invalid comparisons. Don't you have the slightest feeling that keeping a girl in the tent in the middle of a military campaign, with lots of people around, is a tiny bit different from having a handful of people in a secret remote location, who know from the very beginning that This Is Secret?

Military campaigns don't always take place in open fields and the wilderness. In fact a few of the POVs from the books show us that often times campaigns lead through minor villages and holdfast and such where some secrecy may be obtained.

Also the TOJ wasn't a complete secret. As some people have been saying there were probably septas and servants there and they may have gossiped.

And Ned somehow found his way there which means he would have had to have heard it from someone else so it wasn't a total secret.

Sounds like Ned was some backpacker or something, completely ignoring the reason for which he travelled - in most cases, war that he led, and an "abducted" relative. I' most curious to see how this applies to Ashara - and please, try something morme plausible than looking for her brother, as if Sword of the Morning could prepare his breakfast cereals without his sis or something.

I think you're being facetious. What he said about small-folk traveling is very plausible especially when you take into account camp followers, hunters, merchants, sailors etc.

And lots of nobles like Ned would ave found themselves in a lot of places in Westeros, There's fostering, leaving to be married, leaving on official business often times in representation of your lord and other valid reasons.

Ppl don't move the way you're suggesting they did. Also i'm starting to think that you actually think Jon has two mothers or something, because one second you're arguing and giving a theory about Ashara as if she's definitely the mother, and the next second you're arguing for Wylla as if she's definitely the mother make up you're mind. It's one thing to say that both are a possibility but to argue both with such a strong resolve as if both are for sure the mother which is obviously impossible, shows us that you're really just looking for any possible way to not have to accept R+L=J or even acknowledge the fact that whether you like it or not, it is by far the most likely scenario in terms of who Jon's parents are which is something that even the most resolved of R+L=J detractors admit all the time. If you want to argue for Ashara and Wylla fine go ahead, but to honestly think that the theories of Ashara or Wylla being Jon's mother are even close to the same level of legitimacy/validity of R+L=J is beyond obsurd.

I think it's pretty unrealistic to say that those other theories aren't on the same levels when it comes to validity.

The "evidence" is pretty much of all the same caliber for all the theories.

I honestly think that some people let the fact tat there theory is more popular in terms of believers give them false confidence in it.

[Jon Icefyre]

I think it's pretty unrealistic to say that those other theories aren't on the same levels when it comes to validity.

Are you kidding? Even the biggest supporters of R+L=J not being true admit on this thread all the time that even though they don't like R+L=J it by far has the most amount of evidence backing it up are you seriously denying that? Validity is based on evidence and R+L=J has a lot more than any other theory so I don't really see your point?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Alfie:

What did you ask him (GRRM) about in return?

You know, I asked him about who Jon Snow's real parents were, and he told me. I can't say who, but I can tell you that it involves a bit of a Luke Skywalker situation.

Well, Wasn't Luke raised by his "uncle" after her mother died in childbirth? As long as there is not a twin, I'm ok with it.

[Jon Icefyre]

This is just silly.

One situation is the Lord and General of an army having a camp follower while on campaign. People notice, lots of them and those lots and lots and lots hav of peoplee no reason not to talk.

The other situation is a tiny group of people, as few as three, who are all committed to a secret (Ned and HR because its Lyanna's babe, any orginal Targ loyalists like selected Dayne retainers/midwife/maester/servants etc there because its a Targ babe). there is hardly any people and they all have very good reason not to talk.

Sure, people move or can. Some of them at least. But you still have to have half a brain about this. People move for reasons, not to random and illogical places, and moving is often noticeable, as well as notable.

For Ashara to be the mother you have the very strange scenario of a prominent and committed Targ loyalist present in the general's bed during a time of war, while with the army, and nobody noticing or commenting. Its beyond ridiculous.

For the stepstones girl to be Jon's mother you have a bedwarmer hanging around with Ned with the army for several months, then getting sent, not to her home or to Winterfell, but to the opposite end of the continent in enemy territory after getting pregnant. And again, no one notices or comments. And then she fortuitously turns up at the same location as Ned finds Lyanna. Its even further beyond ridiculous.

Thank you! I'm getting sick of ppl treating Ashara like she was some rebel groupie that marched from camp to camp with Ned as his mistress or that she would even risk being in the center of a rebel army at that point in the rebellion. Her brother was of the KG along with being prince Rhaegar's closest friend and biggest supporter do ppl really think her house wasn't the same? She was Dayne aka a huge Targ loyalist! She wasn't gonna be spending her pastime kickin it with the rebel side. Regardless of what feelings she may or may not have had for Ned she wasn't an idiot and sneaking into the rebel side just to have pillow talk sessions with Ned would just be plain stupid for her and Ned who if some ppl hadn't realized yet was a central leader to the rebellion. I doubt commander Stark would have risked his own side finding out he was sleeping with the enemy. Hell he doesn't even like ppl mentioning Wylla or Ashara more than a decade after the rebellion, do ppl think he'd actually risk being seen with one of them in the middle of the rebellion?

[FittleLinger]

I think it's pretty unrealistic to say that those other theories aren't on the same levels when it comes to validity.

The "evidence" is pretty much of all the same caliber for all the theories.

I honestly think that some people let the fact tat there theory is more popular in terms of believers give them false confidence in it.

Yeah, we like it cause it's popular. We think we are the in-crowd.

We actually never even read anything. We just want to be popular on the interwebz.

[Ygrain]

Could you point me to the quote you are referring to?

"They had found him (Ned) still holding her (Lyanna's) body, silent with grief." — pg. 44 (quoting from another thread.

It follows how HR took Lyanna’s hand from Ned‘s

Military campaigns don't always take place in open fields and the wilderness. In fact a few of the POVs from the books show us that often times campaigns lead through minor villages and holdfast and such where some secrecy may be obtained.

I suggest that you go back and read the whole argumentation. We’re not talking here about a single occurence but about a girl being Ned’s campfollower for months, to fit the timeline for Jon’s birth, and somehow escaping the attention of Ned’s servants, guards and virtually about anyone else.

Also the TOJ wasn't a complete secret. As some people have been saying there were probably septas and servants there and they may have gossiped.

See the posts above. A couple of people in on the secret in one location from the very beginning is rather different from the setting of travelling on a military campaign.

And Ned somehow found his way there which means he would have had to have heard it from someone else so it wasn't a total secret.

And this is supposed to be on the same level as random people noticing that Ned supposedly took a girl to his bed?

I think you're being facetious. What he said about small-folk traveling is very plausible especially when you take into account camp followers, hunters, merchants, sailors etc.

And lots of nobles like Ned would ave found themselves in a lot of places in Westeros, There's fostering, leaving to be married, leaving on official business often times in representation of your lord and other valid reasons.

I’m being annoyed by a flow of absolutely invalid comparisons disregarding the reasons, situations and whatever you may think of that apply to the individual situations. Giving the list of locations visited by Eddard on military campaigns is absolutely no grounds for claiming that Ashara must have travelled like that, as well.

I think it's pretty unrealistic to say that those other theories aren't on the same levels when it comes to validity.

The "evidence" is pretty much of all the same caliber for all the theories.

I honestly think that some people let the fact tat there theory is more popular in terms of believers give them false confidence in it.

Please. Go to the first page of this thread, to the post which refers to the sum of the R+L clues. Then go and gather a similarly extensive list of such clues for Wylla and Ashara. Then come back and claim something about us being popularity sheep.

[lcd52]

Well, Wasn't Luke raised by his "uncle" after her mother died in childbirth? As long as there is not a twin, I'm ok with it.

If there is, her name is Rhaea and Ashara is raising her at Greywater Watch because she looks like her father. (I just can't make Leagara work). :laugh:

[WesterosGypsy]

One more thing I want to add.... When Ned made his promise to Lyanna, he hardly knew Catelyn so it is reasonable to assume that he would have felt more loyalty to protecting his sister than a new wife that he was forced to marry and had met once.