Did Stannis wanted Robert Baratheon to Die?

[Groat]

Robert and Stannis were not close, I think the text supports this fairly well. Also, Stannis might be a lot of things, but he is no man's fool. He knew the worth of people like LF, Varys, and Pycelle. If Stannis made an accusation that Robert's children were bastards, it probably would have ended with his head on a spike. Robert is good at turning a blind eye, and the Lannisters would not take that accusation lying down. I think there is a quote somewhere about how Robert would never believe it if he heard it from Stannis, but would probably believe and side with Ned.

Also, After Jon Arryn died Stannis fled for his safety. He had no way of knowing who would be next hand. Why would he just out of the blue send Robert's a best friend a letter saying his wife is guilty of treason? From Stannis's pov, Ned would most likely tell Robert what he said, which would result in the same thing, Stannis's head on a spike.

The only proof is the book, which Jon Arryn had and Stannis most likely never saw or knew about, the fact that Stannis never mentions the book later on and complains about the lack of proof shows he never know about this book.

In short he had no proof, Robert had no love for him, the Lannisters were powerful, sly, and had allies at court, and he had no army. As Stannis saw it his best bet was to keep his mout shut and prepare for war.

[mattah84]

no,he brought his suspicion to Jon Arryn , and then Jon started digging in the history books!

When you get a chance, can you please post the Book and Page # that discusses Stannis referring his suspicions to Jon Arryn?

I don't remember that at all which is why I thought it was just from Jon Arryn reading the book about lineages. Thank you.

[W.Kane]

Jon Arryn (a) fostered Robert and (b.) was King's Hand. He was probably closer to Robert than Stannis was, and Robert would be more likely to believe Jon. Stannis would have become the Robert's heir when Cersei's kids were revealed as not being Roberts, so there would have been a perceived conflict of interest if Stannis made the revelation.

true , but not exactly my point , I meant he told Jon because he was loyal to his brother , this shows he didn't want his brother dead .

[W.Kane]

My point being is that he has the quote where he says I should have had the position of Hand.

He fled back to Dragonstone, and from what we have seen, made absolutely no attempt to let Robert know about the true parentage of Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella.

He doesn't send a Raven to Winterfell for Eddard to explain things to the King. I understand that it would have been hard to do in Kings Landing as Robert was surrounded by Lannisters. But I don't see the reason not to have Robert's best friend Eddard tell him, other than the fact that you are being a sourpuss after not being named hand.

Not only was a Raven not sent to Eddard, but when the time came for Stannis to make "His Claim", he had NO PROBLEM sending letters to every corner of the realm letting them know about Cersei's kids.

If you are in fear of your own life to the point that you flee to Dragonstone, doesn't it reason that you would be in fear of your brother's life as well?

he did make mistake by not sending raven to Ned but it doesn't mean he wanted his brother to die , he just made a mistake .

but he didn't know they would go that far to kill the king! , as I said before he intended to come back with enough men , but out of bad luck , things went against his plan.

[mcb]

Those quotes from Stannis do seem to reflect that he didn't want to be King. Interesting.....

Correction: he says he doesn't want to be king. But if you disregard his verbal declarations and look at his actions, you'd be hard-pressed to imagine anyone more power hungry than our humble Stan.

Let's not be delusional. He craves the throne more than anything in his whole life, he's just a hypocrite.

[W.Kane]

When you get a chance, can you please post the Book and Page # that discusses Stannis referring his suspicions to Jon Arryn?

I don't remember that at all which is why I thought it was just from Jon Arryn reading the book about lineages. Thank you.

your welcome

and here it is: (acok)

“Lord Stannis,” she asked, “if you knew the queen to be guilty of such monstrous crimes, why did you keep silent? “

“I did not keep silent,” Stannis declared. “I brought my suspicions to Jon Arryn.”

“Rather than your own brother?”

“My brother’s regard for me was never more than dutiful,” said Stannis. “From me, such accusations would have seemed peevish and selfserving, a means of placing myself first in the line of succession. I believed Robert would be more disposed to listen if the charges came from Lord Arryn, whom he loved.”

[mormont]

What seems to have happened is that Stannis and Jon Arryn investigated the bastards together. We don't know who had the initial suspicion (ETA - ah, maybe we do. Thanks. :)), but we do know the two men sought to bind themselves together by having Stannis foster little Robert, and that they kept this arrangement (and everything else) from King Robert.

So we can assume that Stannis, and probably Jon Arryn too, were very wary about revealing the truth, even to Robert, even with the evidence they had. Part of this can be put down to the Baratheon family's dysfunctionality: none of the brothers seem to have liked or trusted the others, Stannis and Robert least of all. But we can guess that even Jon Arryn had his reservations, so part of it might have been down to Robert himself. I think Jon was probably on the point of going to Robert when he died, but did Stannis know that?

Further, giving the information to Ned might have been a death sentence to Ned as it was to Jon.

That doesn't wholly explain Stannis' inaction - I think the idea that he was gathering swords in preparation for revealing the truth is... speculative at best. He seems instead to have sat on Dragonstone and waited to see what would happen. I put that down to Stannis being a more complicated character than even he likes to admit to himself. Stannis likes to think he is a black-and-white kind of guy, but there are depths that he hides behind all that 'justice' and 'duty' stuff (as the shadowbaby exploits show: he seems to be conflicted about Renly's death, feeling guilt but not admitting to himself that he's culpable).

[Dragonstoned]

Correction: he says he doesn't want to be king. But if you disregard his verbal declarations and look at his actions, you'd be hard-pressed to imagine anyone more power hungry than our humble Stan.

Let's not be delusional. He craves the throne more than anything in his whole life, he's just a hypocrite.

Disregarding everything a character says in a book series is a bit silly though. His actions just show him trying very hard to win the throne, they offer no insight at all into his motivations, the point being only words can do that. What you can do instead is disbelieve everything he says.

[Associate Maester]

No he didn't want Robert dead.

[W.Kane]

Correction: he says he doesn't want to be king. But if you disregard his verbal declarations and look at his actions, you'd be hard-pressed to imagine anyone more power hungry than our humble Stan.

Let's not be delusional. He craves the throne more than anything in his whole life, he's just a hypocrite.

he is either a hypocrite or a very dutiful man , I believe he is the later but you can believe what you want.

[Associate Maester]

Correction: he says he doesn't want to be king. But if you disregard his verbal declarations and look at his actions, you'd be hard-pressed to imagine anyone more power hungry than our humble Stan.

Let's not be delusional. He craves the throne more than anything in his whole life, he's just a hypocrite.

Hmm. Nope, many of us have a different reading of it. I guess there will be no proof unless we get a Stannis POV.

[David Selig]

Correction: he says he doesn't want to be king. But if you disregard his verbal declarations and look at his actions, you'd be hard-pressed to imagine anyone more power hungry than our humble Stan.

Let's not be delusional. He craves the throne more than anything in his whole life, he's just a hypocrite.

This.

If Stannis really didn't want the Throne, he had a thousand chances to give up on his claim. And his talk of "duty above all" is quite funny given that for many months he kept a deadly secret he had a duty to tell Robert ASAP.

[Associate Maester]

What seems to have happened is that Stannis and Jon Arryn investigated the bastards together. We don't know who had the initial suspicion (ETA - ah, maybe we do. Thanks. :)), but we do know the two men sought to bind themselves together by having Stannis foster little Robert, and that they kept this arrangement (and everything else) from King Robert.

So we can assume that Stannis, and probably Jon Arryn too, were very wary about revealing the truth, even to Robert, even with the evidence they had. Part of this can be put down to the Baratheon family's dysfunctionality: none of the brothers seem to have liked or trusted the others, Stannis and Robert least of all. But we can guess that even Jon Arryn had his reservations, so part of it might have been down to Robert himself. I think Jon was probably on the point of going to Robert when he died, but did Stannis know that?

Further, giving the information to Ned might have been a death sentence to Ned as it was to Jon.

That doesn't wholly explain Stannis' inaction - I think the idea that he was gathering swords in preparation for revealing the truth is... speculative at best. He seems instead to have sat on Dragonstone and waited to see what would happen. I put that down to Stannis being a more complicated character than even he likes to admit to himself. Stannis likes to think he is a black-and-white kind of guy, but there are depths that he hides behind all that 'justice' and 'duty' stuff (as the shadowbaby exploits show: he seems to be conflicted about Renly's death, feeling guilt but not admitting to himself that he's culpable).

I don't see it so much as inaction. We have plenty of evidence in the books that Stannis does not make decisions lightly or quickly. This is the man that spent half of ASOS mulling over whether to burn his nephew. However, when he finally makes a decision he works to enact it asap.

[Talleyrand]

Jon Arryn (a) fostered Robert and (b.) was King's Hand. He was probably closer to Robert than Stannis was, and Robert would be more likely to believe Jon. Stannis would have become the Robert's heir when Cersei's kids were revealed as not being Roberts, so there would have been a perceived conflict of interest if Stannis made the revelation.

So instead of telling Robert when there was still a chance for another heir to be made he decides to reveal it when it leaves him as the claimant to the throne. Cause that makes him come across as far more trustworthy.

I enjoy Stannis as a character and am quite fond of him but I don't understand why people seem to take every word as gospel when his actions beg to differ.

He claims to Davos that he had no knowledge the Renly's killing and people seem to be believe it despite his obvious knowledge and willingness to use the shadowbabies and his ominous as fuck warning to Renly at the parley.

Just as in this case - he keeps on saying he doesn't want to be king yet is trying his best at every turn to become it. Aemon didn't want the throne so you know what he did. Joined the Night's Watch, I wish Stannis would do the same, he'd make a far better Lord Commander than King

[Associate Maester]

Darn Stannis. Too bad he didn't march right back into King's Landing and shout the truth from the rooftops. He should've followed Ned's strategy...oops.

[mormont]

Well, there's not wanting, and not wanting, if you see what I mean.

A man can actively 'not want' something, and he'll seek opportunities to avoid it. Or he can just not particularly want it, but when it comes along, he takes it. I might not want to be the boss, but if my current boss leaves and I think someone else would fuck things up, I might apply for his job. Or I might not want to be the boss to the point where I would not apply for the job even if my coworkers were begging me to. 'Not wanting' covers a lot of ground.

[W.Kane]

That doesn't wholly explain Stannis' inaction - I think the idea that he was gathering swords in preparation for revealing the truth is... speculative at best. He seems instead to have sat on Dragonstone and waited to see what would happen. I put that down to Stannis being a more complicated character than even he likes to admit to himself. Stannis likes to think he is a black-and-white kind of guy, but there are depths that he hides behind all that 'justice' and 'duty' stuff (as the shadowbaby exploits show: he seems to be conflicted about Renly's death, feeling guilt but not admitting to himself that he's culpable).

since we don't know what is going on in his head , we can only speculate .

according to Varys he was gathering sellswords ,so : 1) he may intended to come back to KL (this is what I believe) or 2) he was waiting to see what would happen

in shadowbaby Stuff : he claims that he didn't know about that , you believe him or don't , it is your choice.

he feels guilty , because he was involved in his death , though unintentionally.

[Light a wight tonight]

true , but not exactly my point , I meant he told Jon because he was loyal to his brother , this shows he didn't want his brother dead .

I thought your point was him telling Jon rather than his brother directly. He thought Jon would have more credibility. I'm sure that he did not want Robert dead.

[mcb]

Disregarding everything a character says in a book series is a bit silly though.

True. If I did that, then I would have no grounds to call him a stinking hypocrite, now would I? However, I weigh a character's words against his actions. Similarly: while we weren't treated to Littlefinger's POV, I don't believe he was truthful when he promised Ned his support and the golden cloaks.

The entire Stannis plot is simply irreconcilable with a "Stannis who doesn't want the throne".

His actions just show him trying very hard to win the throne, they offer no insight at all into his motivations, the point being only words can do that. What you can do instead is disbelieve everything he says.

"Trying very hard" is enough. Who in the books does try very hard to get something they don't want?

[W.Kane]

Darn Stannis. Too bad he didn't march right back into King's Landing and shout the truth from the rooftops. He should've followed Ned's strategy...oops.

LOL , sad but true . poor old Ned , he was a very good man but not a very bright one. (btw, he is my second favorite character )