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Tower of Joy: something I've never quite understood (possible spoilers)


Turin Turambar

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Please, read the relevant post 34. The KG didn't leave for ToJ, they had already been there.

then I'd alter everything I said to "remaining at the tower of joy" instead of "heading to the ToJ", but my point remains the same. There's no question that they technically broke their KG duties, but given the circumstances with Aerys I mentioned I can at least begin to understand how a few were loyal enough to Rhaegar to do so. Dayne Whent and Hightower failed to protect the other Targ children as a combination of already being at the ToJ and failing to foresee the sack of KL. considering Rhaegar thought he would win at the Trident and nobody knew what was going to happen in KL. Though those 3 KG members were still breaking their duties, as far as they or Rhaegar knew it wouldn't have deadly consequences.

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<snip>There's no question that they technically broke their KG duties.<snip>

I don't really understand what you mean by this. How did they 'technically' break their KG duties? There was a KG (Jaime) always with the king. So long as at least one KG is with the KG, their duties also include following orders. If their orders include protecting the king's heirs or standing in a corner and picking their nose, then they do that, so long as it doesn't violate the primary duty of protecting the king.

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then I'd alter everything I said to "remaining at the tower of joy" instead of "heading to the ToJ", but my point remains the same. There's no question that they technically broke their KG duties, but given the circumstances with Aerys I mentioned I can at least begin to understand how a few were loyal enough to Rhaegar to do so. Dayne Whent and Hightower failed to protect the other Targ children as a combination of already being at the ToJ and failing to foresee the sack of KL. considering Rhaegar thought he would win at the Trident and nobody knew what was going to happen in KL. Though those 3 KG members were still breaking their duties, as far as they or Rhaegar knew it wouldn't have deadly consequences.

And what do you perceive as breaking of their KG duties? In Aerys' absence, Rhaegar had full authority to issue commands to them, and as Aerys was protected by the remaining KG, they weren't breaking any vows by not being in KL.

Plus, they make clear that they still consider Aerys the rightful king.

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This has the potential for a great remake of "3 Men and a Baby" :).

Though Bright Blue Eyes and Ygrain are right: "3 Knights and a Baby away from civilisation but in the middle of hostile territory with no allies in sight" has decidedly worse chances for a happy ending that the original comedy.

Damn, now I can't stop thinking about 3 Godfathers. That scenario involved three men with a newborn being stranded in a desert with no water, and they were also being pursued by a posse. Needless to say, John Wayne came through for the kid, but could the KG live up to his example? I doubt it.

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I like how the rest of the KG thought it was a splendid idea to leave 17 year old, newly appointed Jaime as the sole defender of the actual king.

Well, the KG kinda had no say in this. Besides, any KG would have been just a single swordsman, albeit outstanding, in an almost impenetrable fortress in a walled city defended by thousands of goldcloaks and perhaps also other forces. Had Aerys not opened the gates...

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I don't really understand what you mean by this. How did they 'technically' break their KG duties?

And what do you perceive as breaking of their KG duties? In Aerys' absence, Rhaegar had full authority to issue commands to them, and as Aerys was protected by the remaining KG, they weren't breaking any vows by not being in KL.

Plus, they make clear that they still consider Aerys the rightful king.

They didn't break their duties - @Ygrain, I could have sworn you said something about them breaking their duties by not being in KL which I did not get at all. I was arguing all along they didn't break their duties, my most recent comment was just saying that even if by your definition, they did, they still had reason to do so. I just read once of your comments wrong, sorry.

I'm 95% sure we're actually on the same side so I'm going to stop now.

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I like how the rest of the KG thought it was a splendid idea to leave 17 year old, newly appointed Jaime as the sole defender of the actual king.

I doubt the Lord Commander of the KG decided exactly how the KG would be utilized, even during the war. Jaime was pretty much kept around to be used as a potential hostage against Tywin. Besides that, the city is walled and guarded by the gold cloaks. The KG aren't some super magical force who can defend against an overwhelming enemy. Having all seven standing between Aerys and Tywin's sacking wouldn't have offered some sort of magical protection barrier.

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Even IF you accept a marriage, the KG couldn't know that the child was going to be a male and it would STILL not be the tue heir. The KG weren't there to protect "Rhaegars heir", because that implies precognition of the sacking and a massive dereliction of duty by not protecting the current king, the crown prince, and the firstborn heir of the crown prince. The KG were at the ToJ because they were told to be there. Its just silly to say that they were following their vows to guard the 'true heir' by protecting Lyanna because that means they broke their vows thrice in doing so.

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then I'd alter everything I said to "remaining at the tower of joy" instead of "heading to the ToJ", but my point remains the same. There's no question that they technically broke their KG duties, but given the circumstances with Aerys I mentioned I can at least begin to understand how a few were loyal enough to Rhaegar to do so. Dayne Whent and Hightower failed to protect the other Targ children as a combination of already being at the ToJ and failing to foresee the sack of KL. considering Rhaegar thought he would win at the Trident and nobody knew what was going to happen in KL. Though those 3 KG members were still breaking their duties, as far as they or Rhaegar knew it wouldn't have deadly consequences.

They didn't break their duties - @Ygrain, I could have sworn you said something about them breaking their duties by not being in KL which I did not get at all. I was arguing all along they didn't break their duties, my most recent comment was just saying that even if by your definition, they did, they still had reason to do so. I just read once of your comments wrong, sorry.

I'm 95% sure we're actually on the same side so I'm going to stop now.

:shocked: I'm confused.

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I doubt the Lord Commander of the KG decided exactly how the KG would be utilized, even during the war. Jaime was pretty much kept around to be used as a potential hostage against Tywin. Besides that, the city is walled and guarded by the gold cloaks. The KG aren't some super magical force who can defend against an overwhelming enemy. Having all seven standing between Aerys and Tywin's sacking wouldn't have offered some sort of magical protection barrier.

The hostage part makes sense, thanks. Do we know if the LC has the authority to decide which KG should go where?

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it is really weird that lord varys was not aware of rhaegar and lyanna baby. i mean his birds everywhere. he shuld be atleast knowing that lyanna was pregnant. or is he just pretending that he doesnt know anything?? what if he already knows that jon is not Ned's bastard and just keeping secret to use Jon as his contigency plan if aegon fails.

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Even IF you accept a marriage, the KG couldn't know that the child was going to be a male and it would STILL not be the tue heir. The KG weren't there to protect "Rhaegars heir", because that implies precognition of the sacking and a massive dereliction of duty by not protecting the current king, the crown prince, and the firstborn heir of the crown prince. The KG were at the ToJ because they were told to be there. Its just silly to say that they were following their vows to guard the 'true heir' by protecting Lyanna because that means they broke their vows thrice in doing so.

No. They were there INITIALLY on Rhaegars orders. Then however, several things happen - the child is born a male, and Aerys, Rhaegar, and Aegon are killed. They are now staying there because they are protecting their King - otherwise, at least one would have to go to Viserys. It's all been laid out plainly before...

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I believe Rhaegar had enough time to ship Lyanna and his unborn child to the Free Cities (as later happened to Viserys, Daenerys and, presumably, Aegon) - instead of chosing her to remain in a kingdom whose fealty his dad had lost and in which the Lannisters and Robert Baratheons wanted his family dead...

Again, I feel something is amiss in whole this story, I hope that in the next 2 books Howland Reed will offer some insight into the last days of the Targaryen dinasty in Westeros.

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I believe Rhaegar had enough time to ship Lyanna and his unborn child to the Free Cities (as later happened to Viserys, Daenerys and, presumably, Aegon) - instead of chosing her to remain in a kingdom whose fealty his dad had lost and in which the Lannisters and Robert Baratheons wanted his family dead...

Again, I feel something is amiss in whole this story, I hope that in the next 2 books Howland Reed will offer some insight into the last days of the Targaryen dinasty in Westeros.

But Ned saw Lyanna, his own sister, die with his own eyes.

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The hostage part makes sense, thanks. Do we know if the LC has the authority to decide which KG should go where?

If I recall correctly, yes the LC has the authority to decide where KG are to be. We see Jaime ordering the KG to certain posts when he returns to King's Landing. But the crown is still the authority over the LC.

it is really weird that lord varys was not aware of rhaegar and lyanna baby. i mean his birds everywhere.

Varys doesn't know everything and his birds aren't everywhere. He has a good spy network, but he's no Bloodraven.

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:shocked: I'm confused.

Read my above post. I thought Ygrain stated somewhere that they broke their duties. I could have sworn they didn't, but I knew I could easily be wrong, hence why I changed it. It doesn't change the base of my argument at all.

If you actually the rest of the comments you quoted you'd realize the point I made in both posts was literally the same in that the KG had justification to follow Rhaegar (regardless of whether their duties said they could or not) so I don't even understand why this matters at all.

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Aerys was paranoid that his son would take the throne. Why would he be any less paranoid about certain members of the KG who are Rhaegar's friends? Could it be that he did not want them around?

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No. They were there INITIALLY on Rhaegars orders. Then however, several things happen - the child is born a male, and Aerys, Rhaegar, and Aegon are killed. They are now staying there because they are protecting their King - otherwise, at least one would have to go to Viserys. It's all been laid out plainly before...

IF legitimate, they are following their vows to protect the true king by the time Ned arrives. Im denying, however, that they were there in the first place to protect their true king and I am explicitly stating that by following Rhaegars orders to stay put they forsook their vows to protect Aerys Rhaegar and Aegon. The trouble rises when people say this is proof the child was legitimate; in my opinion its not proof at all. Rhaegar said stay, so they stayed. Legitimacy was irrelevant to Rhaegars belief in prophecy

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