Jump to content

Tower of Joy: something I've never quite understood (possible spoilers)


Turin Turambar

Recommended Posts

Even IF you accept a marriage, the KG couldn't know that the child was going to be a male and it would STILL not be the tue heir. The KG weren't there to protect "Rhaegars heir", because that implies precognition of the sacking and a massive dereliction of duty by not protecting the current king, the crown prince, and the firstborn heir of the crown prince. The KG were at the ToJ because they were told to be there. Its just silly to say that they were following their vows to guard the 'true heir' by protecting Lyanna because that means they broke their vows thrice in doing so.

The reasoning applies strictly to the period after the death of Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon. Up till then, they are quite fine staying at ToJ at Rhaegar's orders, because the king (Aerys) is protected by the remaining KG. Then, however, Viserys supposedly becomes king, and he had no KG with him - and THAT's the moment when their KG vows should take priority over Rhaegar's orders. Moreover, there are three of them, so they even have the means to fulfill both their orders and their KG duty, by splitting their number, yet, they don't, and refer to the KG vows as the reason why they are at ToJ, which is nonsense - their KG vows bind them to be with Viserys, IF he is the next in the succession line.

it is really weird that lord varys was not aware of rhaegar and lyanna baby. i mean his birds everywhere. he shuld be atleast knowing that lyanna was pregnant. or is he just pretending that he doesnt know anything?? what if he already knows that jon is not Ned's bastard and just keeping secret to use Jon as his contigency plan if aegon fails.

ToJ is an unused watchtower in the pass of the mountains of Dorne. There is no way Varys could have planted his birds or have any informers there.

I believe Rhaegar had enough time to ship Lyanna and his unborn child to the Free Cities (as later happened to Viserys, Daenerys and, presumably, Aegon) - instead of chosing her to remain in a kingdom whose fealty his dad had lost and in which the Lannisters and Robert Baratheons wanted his family dead...

Again, I feel something is amiss in whole this story, I hope that in the next 2 books Howland Reed will offer some insight into the last days of the Targaryen dinasty in Westeros.

They didn't lose the fealty of the whole kingdom, there were still many Targ loyalists. Besides, the Lannisters showed their true colours only after Rhaegar's death, and the same goes to Robert condoning the murders of children.

Read my above post. I thought Ygrain stated somewhere that they broke their duties. I could have sworn they didn't, but I knew I could easily be wrong, hence why I changed it. It doesn't change the base of my argument at all.

If you actually the rest of the comments you quoted you'd realize the point I made in both posts was literally the same in that the KG had justification to follow Rhaegar (regardless of whether their duties said they could or not) so I don't even understand why this matters at all.

I believe the confusion originated from what I said about the KG staying at ToJ - that they would have been in dereliction of duty if Viserys was the next in the succession line.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

IF legitimate, they are following their vows to protect the true king by the time Ned arrives. Im denying, however, that they were there in the first place to protect their true king and I am explicitly stating that by following Rhaegars orders to stay put they forsook their vows to protect Aerys Rhaegar and Aegon. The trouble rises when people say this is proof the child was legitimate; in my opinion its not proof at all. Rhaegar said stay, so they stayed. Legitimacy was irrelevant to Rhaegars belief in prophecy

Jon had to have been legitimate otherwise the KG wouldn't have stayed with a bastard.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Read my above post. I thought Ygrain stated somewhere that they broke their duties. I could have sworn they didn't, but I knew I could easily be wrong, hence why I changed it. It doesn't change the base of my argument at all.

If you actually the rest of the comments you quoted you'd realize the point I made in both posts was literally the same in that the KG had justification to follow Rhaegar (regardless of whether their duties said they could or not) so I don't even understand why this matters at all.

Nothing personal, it's just that the contradictory comments made for a very confusing read. Cheers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Simplest explanation: Rhaegar ordered them to guard his mistress. Having sworn to obey, they did their duty despite everyone being aware that their time and efforts could be better spent elsewhere.

If Jon had actually been a legitimate king, the KG's defense of the TOJ would have been a lot more comprehensible than "stay out in field and wait for six people on horseback to start fighting you". Their duel with Ned seems to be driven more by a desire to die honourably instead of kneeling to a usurper who killed the entire royal line rather than because they were actually protecting anything or anyone of value.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, basically that's all we know for certain. Why did she die? Was it rape? Was it love? Was it a bit of both? Stockholm syndrome? Did they father a boy (Jon Snow)? and so on...

It was for love. I've just realised both Rhaegar and Lyanna died for their love.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe Rhaegar had enough time to ship Lyanna and his unborn child to the Free Cities (as later happened to Viserys, Daenerys and, presumably, Aegon) - instead of chosing her to remain in a kingdom whose fealty his dad had lost and in which the Lannisters and Robert Baratheons wanted his family dead...

Again, I feel something is amiss in whole this story, I hope that in the next 2 books Howland Reed will offer some insight into the last days of the Targaryen dinasty in Westeros.

My theory is that the truth will be revealed to book readers first through Bran via weirwood watching, and the rest of Westeros will find out when Howland reads Robb's Will and says "hmm, King in the North and a true Targ?"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

IF legitimate, they are following their vows to protect the true king by the time Ned arrives. Im denying, however, that they were there in the first place to protect their true king and I am explicitly stating that by following Rhaegars orders to stay put they forsook their vows to protect Aerys Rhaegar and Aegon. The trouble rises when people say this is proof the child was legitimate; in my opinion its not proof at all. Rhaegar said stay, so they stayed. Legitimacy was irrelevant to Rhaegars belief in prophecy

What does that have to do with why the KG stayed after Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon were dead? How do you explain none of the remaining KG going to protect Viserys (their new King according to you). Or are we just dealing with a rogue group of KG, which would contradict their assertion that they are UPHOLDING their vows?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The vast majority of the Tower of Joy scene makes so much more sense when you finally accept that yes Rhaegar and Lyanna were married and yes at that point Jon was the rightful king, and that's why the Kingsguard were at the Tower.

This

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with the R+L=J theory, which means:

(1) Lyanna was probably heavily pregnant - she may well have literally been in labour as Ned arrived. (And hoping that if anybody came, and defeated the guards, it WOULD be Ned and not Robert.)

(2) Rhaegar died before the child was born, not knowing whether it would be a boy or girl. Of course he also died while his other two children were still alive, and thus not knowing that they too would be killed (assuming Aegon is dead - Rhaenys certainly is).

(3) Rhaegar believed implicitly in various prophecies - the "song of ice and fire" meaning that he, as a representative of fire (Targaryen) must have a child with a representative of ice (Stark), and the "prince that was promised" who will set the world to rights (apparently Rhaegar believed at first that he himself fulfilled the latter prophecy, before coming to believe it would be a descendant and possibly son of his. And also...

(4) "The dragon has three heads". Elia Martell had borne him two, and was incapable of having another. He wanted a third living child. And, who knows, perhaps he wanted to protect at least *one* child from Aerys by keeping him a secret, because he himself recognised his father's madness and realised his own children would be at risk. Whether such a child was "legitimate" by the laws of men, or not, would probably not be consideration, compared with the imperative to actually sire a third child at all.

So...

Gerold Hightower, Oswell Whent and Arthur Dayne were protecting Lyanna and the child, whom Rhaegar presumably hoped would be the third living child, alongside Aegon and Rhaenys.

Jaime Lannister was in King's Landing - on Aerys's own orders, generally (and probably correctly) believing himself to be a potential hostage in case Tywin should join the rebellion.

The remainder of the Kingsguard - Barristan Selmy, Jonothor Darry and Lewyn Martell - all fought alongside Rhaegar at the Trident. Rhaegar would have been expecting, or at least hoping, to actually win the battle. As things turned out, he lost. Barristan Selmy, of course, was the only survivor, and severely wounded and taken prisoner.

In other words: With six knights of the Kingsguard available, he split them evenly - half for himself and half for Lyanna and the as-yet-unborn child. Obviously the three that he left behind with Lyanna would have been made to swear an absolutely binding oath, one strong enough to override their beliefs that they should be out on the battlefield protecting Rhaegar...

What Lyanna thought of this (or indeed of Rhaegar) is unrecorded, but Rhaegar *definitely* thought he had something worth leaving three knights of the Kingsguard to protect, even at risk of his own life. Who knows - Rhaegar may not even have particularly cared for her, but chosen her because of the "song of ice and fire" prophecy, simply because she was a Stark. Or he may have genuinely been smitten with her. Or he may have fallen in love with her after deciding that she was the one. And whether she was given a choice in the matter is also unrecorded, although I'd prefer to believe that she did go with Rhaegar of her own free will, and out of love...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What Lyanna thought of this (or indeed of Rhaegar) is unrecorded, but Rhaegar *definitely* thought he had something worth leaving three knights of the Kingsguard to protect, even at risk of his own life. Who knows - Rhaegar may not even have particularly cared for her, but chosen her because of the "song of ice and fire" prophecy, simply because she was a Stark and thus from the family representing ice. And whether she was given a choice in the matter is also unrecorded, although I'd prefer to believe that she did go with Rhaegar of her own free will, and out of love...

I agree with everything except I believe Rhaegar did love Lyanna

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, basically that's all we know for certain. Why did she die? Was it rape? Was it love? Was it a bit of both? Stockholm syndrome? Did they father a boy (Jon Snow)? and so on...

Simplest explanation: Rhaegar ordered them to guard his mistress. Having sworn to obey, they did their duty despite everyone being aware that their time and efforts could be better spent elsewhere.

If Jon had actually been a legitimate king, the KG's defense of the TOJ would have been a lot more comprehensible than "stay out in field and wait for six people on horseback to start fighting you". Their duel with Ned seems to be driven more by a desire to die honourably instead of kneeling to a usurper who killed the entire royal line rather than because they were actually protecting anything or anyone of value.

What is the primary purpose of Kingsguard, to obey orders, or to guard King?

The same for choosing themselves honourable death over guarding their king, that would be breaking thei rvows, which they explicitely state they are upholding.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Love, obsession, both closely related :)

I meant obsession with the prophecy rather than with Lyanna.

It's entirely possible he loved Lyanna by the end, but I'm dubious he loved her right from the get go.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I meant obsession with the prophecy rather than with Lyanna.

It's entirely possible he loved Lyanna by the end, but I'm dubious he loved her right from the get go.

I actually think he loved from the start.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...