[BOOK SPOILERS] Margaery and Joffrey scene

[Envie]

no, I was being serious! lol. you are giving incredibly insightful views on this scene.

Oh well there I go, making assumptions - my apologies! Thank you! I haven't been on the forums here for a long while, and I'm happy to debate the merits of the show again this season. I'm a huge fan of the books, but I really do enjoy seeing how the writers of the show have interpreted and re-written a lot of scenes that weren't in the books but really do help the show version tell the story in a better way. I felt this scene between Margaery and Joffrey was one of the best to date because of how powerfully well done the exchange and play of emotions were. It's this level of character portrayal that made the books so gripping and I really do believe for the most part (with a few exceptions like Catlyn and maybe Littlefinger) all of the characters are being portrayed really spot on.

[teemo]

i went from being indifferent/somewhat disliking this scene to really liking it after reading your insights...bbuuuttt, I have wonder if you're just the smart one making the writers sound better than they are :P

[Envie]

Give the scene a second watch, that's what I did. I tend to miss a lot the first time I watch an episode because I'm so excited to see everything happening all at once and how cool everything looks that I don't analyze it well until I watch it again with a more critical eye. On second watch, I have to admit, Joffrey's demeanor and extraordinarily dark sadistic lust was chilling. Give it another go!

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Watching the scene again, the whole crossbow scene it's quite a big symbolism of Joff's sexual awakening, something we haven't yet seen neither in books or the show.

[Frey Pie a la Mode]

I was so mad when I first read that Natalie Dormer was playing Margaery. She is a great actress, is stunningly beautiful, I loved her in the Tudors. But she was TOO FREAKING OLD for the part, I felt. Last season, she did well, and they did a good job of making her look young, and the other teens were all aged up anyway, but I was still annoyed.

This season, especially the last episode, has sold me. She is perfect, and this is the best book deviation so far. The way Marg has been fleshed out really enhances her character and makes so much sense.

[PhoenixFlame]

My sister said something that had me laughing: "I'm glad that wasn't one of those steampunk automatic gatling-gun-esque crossbows. The subtly would be just a taaaad upended if he shot it."

[Mladen]

I appreciate these characters a lot more in the HBO series because I'm now seeing them from a different perspective that better displays some terrific motivation exposition for the Tyrells and Lannisters both.

Envie, you really gave a new perspective on the scene and I have to say it I like it. This scene serves many purposes. First as I have already pointed out is foreshadowing of PW, but we have so much more to discuss here. We were already told by Jaime that Renly`s proclivity was worst kept secret at the court, so logically Joffrey would know about Renly/Loras affair. Margaery here isn`t just being tested about Renly, she is tested where he loyalties lie, between her brother and her King. And she wisely gone under Joffrey`s skin and told him that he can do whatever he needs to do (I have already made a comparison between Margaery and Anne Boleyn from Tudors, since Natalie Dormer played both of them). In this scene, we see also 2 things - Margaery`s instinct for survival and also the beginning of

Loras/Sansa marriage plans, which will be use as shield for Loras against Joffrey

All in all, Margaery showed here smartness on so many levels, and cleverness of true player. This scene could have been easily been in books, if GRRM had written Margaery`s or Joffrey`s POV. And unlike many scenes last season, in this one we see writer`s intelligence in regard of bringing something new to the table that isn`t in collision with already written material by GRRM

[Envie]

Thank you Mladen and I agree - the scene could very well have played out similarly in the books if we'd had a POV from either characters. Margaery doesn't seem that scheming in in the book only because we only hear of her from other characters perspectives and they have no idea. It's not obvious until we hear through Sansa that the Tyrells are very crafty and clever at all (well the women are anyways). The writers of the series took this and ran with it flawlessly.

[

Envie, you really gave a new perspective on the scene and I have to say it I like it. This scene serves many purposes. First as I have already pointed out is foreshadowing of PW, but we have so much more to discuss here. We were already told by Jaime that Renly`s proclivity was worst kept secret at the court, so logically Joffrey would know about Renly/Loras affair. Margaery here isn`t just being tested about Renly, she is tested where he loyalties lie, between her brother and her King. And she wisely gone under Joffrey`s skin and told him that he can do whatever he needs to do ... <snip>

Yes! Exactly. I think too many people missed the point that Joffrey very much already knew about Renly and Loras. He's lived at court all his life and he heard the usual gossip everyone else did. Why else would he already have plans to make it punishable by death if he hadn't already heard?

To me, that scene is very much about Joffrey testing Margaery's loyalty and Margaery passing with flying colors (even though she's lying) ... so much so that by the end scene where he's holding her and the crossbow, we get to see just how deviant his sexual nature is - he's only turned on by sadistic controlled violence. Margaery knew this because of Sansa's confessions and knew how to play him. Olenna and Margaery already know at this point that it does not matter whether or not Joffrey is a monster or not because they're already making plans to eliminate him regardless so Margaery's support (lie) of Joffrey's desire to kill all 'degenerates' even if it includes her brother doesn't matter - she doesn't think he's really in any danger since they don't intend for Joffrey to remain king.

By saying "Pity" and eye-rolling at the end of the luncheon with Sansa, viewers are clued in to the fact they don't really care if Joffrey's a bad king or a good king. They would prefer a kind hearted person, easier to manipulate (like the male Tyrells are apparently) but since he's not, they have to go another route to overcome the political obstacle.

[aedalia]

I hadn't thought about the foreshadowing! Thank you!

I just thought it was clever and was a good way to show how cruel Joff is, since in the show they reallyjust had to hit the high points, as it were, with his depravity. It was also a good way to show how smart Margaery is. It was like a little test to see if they could work with him.

[Frey Pie a la Mode]

Upon further reflection, I wonder why so much effort was put into Margaery winning Joffrey over. The wedding is set, and as the QoT's "Pity" comment shows, it's already a done deal that it will be purple. His fate is sealed, so why work so hard to manipulate him and make him so besotted? If he was going to remain the king, and her husband, that would make more sense.

I suppose it would help ensure that he doesn't try and do anything really nasty to Marg before the wedding, which might have been the case if he thought she was another potential victim like Sansa.

[Envie]

That is probably exactly the intentions. We may be reading too much into it - maybe it was just a simple scene to show she was capable of being more politcally savvy than Sansa who was innocent and victimized. I think the scene was far more complex then that and that's why I keep writing a lot about it. The forshadowing and predictions revealed are far better hints than we ever got in the books.

[Mladen]

To me, that scene is very much about Joffrey testing Margaery's loyalty and Margaery passing with flying colors (even though she's lying) ... so much so that by the end scene where he's holding her and the crossbow, we get to see just how deviant his sexual nature is - he's only turned on by sadistic controlled violence. Margaery knew this because of Sansa's confessions and knew how to play him. Olenna and Margaery already know at this point that it does not matter whether or not Joffrey is a monster or not because they're already making plans to eliminate him regardless so Margaery's support (lie) of Joffrey's desire to kill all 'degenerates' even if it includes her brother doesn't matter - she doesn't think he's really in any danger since they don't intend for Joffrey to remain king.

When you mix up a bit books and TV show, you get a great picture of Tyrells. They already knew the truth about Joffrey, but not in extent Sansa could tell the. That`s why they needed Sansa, to interogate her and find out whether what LF told them is actually true. So, when they get their confirmation, they proceed. And after they realized it`s true, they turned to the only solution they had - kill Joffrey and use Tommen.

By saying "Pity" and eye-rolling at the end of the luncheon with Sansa, viewers are clued in to the fact they don't really care if Joffrey's a bad king or a good king. They would prefer a kind hearted person, easier to manipulate (like the male Tyrells are apparently) but since he's not, they have to go another route to overcome the political obstacle.

I wouldn`t be so certain male Tyrells are more naive than female. Loras played his game quite a lot of time, and Garlan was suspiciously close to Joffrey`s cup, even closer than Olenna. And God knows what happened between Willas and Oberyn.

Upon further reflection, I wonder why so much effort was put into Margaery winning Joffrey over. The wedding is set, and as the QoT's "Pity" comment shows, it's already a done deal that it will be purple. His fate is sealed, so why work so hard to manipulate him and make him so besotted? If he was going to remain the king, and her husband, that would make more sense.

Because, this wasn`t about Margaery. This was about Loras`s safety. To keep him away of Joffrey. Margaery manipulated him to do what he wants and secured herself, but now they had to protect Loras. For if Joffrey starts killing `degenerates`, Loras will be at the top of the list. So, they are `dancing` to Joffrey`s tune while they arrange Sansa/Loras marriage.

[Envie]

I wouldn`t be so certain male Tyrells are more naive than female. Loras played his game quite a lot of time, and Garlan was suspiciously close to Joffrey`s cup, even closer than Olenna. And God knows what happened between Willas and Oberyn.

It's true, Loras is quite good at the game and managed to remain popular because of his jousting skills and has oodles more personality than his elder male Tyrell counterparts. Perhaps the image of the older men being big oafs was just part of the rose illusion too, it's hard to tell with so few details about them given in the books. We have Lady Olenna's outspoken opinions and not much else.

What's key important to me is that we're given some insight in these scenes that we did not get in the books. While yes, certain details and characters have been changed a lot, most of the major plots have remained true to writing. Sub-plots around them support alternative views, again, since we didn't have POV thoughts from many of the book characters. If Lady Olenna reveals that she thinks her late husband and son are idiots, then that's the opinion viewers are getting, leaving everyone to suspect her involvement because she herself admits she's 'far more interesting then the rest of them' and Margaery has already clearly displayed complete willingness to do whatever it takes to become Queen (from season 3 with Renly). Doing whatever it takes even risking her own brother's life, to appease an insanely dangerous boy king like Joffrey is definitely clear indication that assassination is not off the table for them at all.

[Mladen]

It's true, Loras is quite good at the game and managed to remain popular because of his jousting skills and has oodles more personality than his elder male Tyrell counterparts. Perhaps the image of the older men being big oafs was just part of the rose illusion too, it's hard to tell with so few details about them given in the books. We have Lady Olenna's outspoken opinions and not much else.

What's key important to me is that we're given some insight in these scenes that we did not get in the books. While yes, certain details and characters have been changed a lot, most of the major plots have remained true to writing. Sub-plots around them support alternative views, again, since we didn't have POV thoughts from many of the book characters. If Lady Olenna reveals that she thinks her late husband and son are idiots, then that's the opinion viewers are getting, leaving everyone to suspect her involvement because she herself admits she's 'far more interesting then the rest of them' and Margaery has already clearly displayed complete willingness to do whatever it takes to become Queen (from season 3 with Renly). Doing whatever it takes even risking her own brother's life, to appease an insanely dangerous boy king like Joffrey is definitely clear indication that assassination is not off the table for them at all.

Tyrells are like rose. I think GRRM had carefully chosen their sigil and words, and he uses that as their philosophy. They are epiphany of beauty and manners, they can enchant anyone and they are certainly quite capable in making people love them. But, for all that beauty, rose hides the thorns, and if you squeeze it hard, you will feel thorns piercing your hand. They are unite as Starks, rich as Lannisters, dangerous as Martells. That`s why they are growing strong, from Conquest all the way till now.

Unlike last season when there were some questionable changes, I like this year`s changes. Especially concerning Tyrells. It is a fresh air of danger and political smartness that tops everyone else. Also, we have deepening characters and creating more drama (which is for TV much needed)

And as you said in the last line, they are not above assasination. And this scene wonderfully portrays it. They will play around, do necessery courtship, but above all, they will do what must be done to ensure their growth. For exchanging Joffrey with Tommen is ensuring that they prosper. And beside winter and the fact almost every major House is failing, Tyrells are growing stronger and are in misummer`s eve.

[Batman]

It was really awkward when Margaery implied Joffrey could do it in her bum if he wanted cause he's king.

If he didnt love her before....

[Valya of Myr]

She was saying that she had even offered to let Renly "go in the back door" just to try and get him in bed with her at all, because he didn't like girl parts.

I cant believe that b*tch said that to joffrey! renly was his uncle, and he was a thousand times better king than the little monster shes about to marry! even if it's a part of her plan and she was trying to play innocent pretty girl, she should NOT have told joffrey his uncle wasnt a "good" husband. great scene anyway.. joffrey was perfectly played. mean as usual!

[Wavey Sauce]

old thread but after I was rewatching the episode I found this subject. I never realized that Marg most likely killed Ros with Joffrey. Looks like lots of people didn't catch it. After the scene where she plays him with the whole convo how she would like to possibly kill something etc...... and when it shows Joff and the dead Ros...... It flips to a quick scene of Marg hunched up looking very very sad and guilty, pretty much implying she was with him and probably took part in the killing. Probably did it to earn his trust and love, and was put in a bad position. But pretty interesting, I missed it fully before

[Wavey Sauce]

No, the thing she was implying that "turned Renly on, and worked". Was when she had Loras with them in the room as well. So pretty much a 3 some, but was Loras that got Renly going.

 

If you look at the one scene when she was trying to have sex with him and he couldnt perform she even says "i can go get my brother if you would like, to help get things started your grace"

[TheKitttenGuard]

old thread but after I was rewatching the episode I found this subject. I never realized that Marg most likely killed Ros with Joffrey. Looks like lots of people didn't catch it. After the scene where she plays him with the whole convo how she would like to possibly kill something etc...... and when it shows Joff and the dead Ros...... It flips to a quick scene of Marg hunched up looking very very sad and guilty, pretty much implying she was with him and probably took part in the killing. Probably did it to earn his trust and love, and was put in a bad position. But pretty interesting, I missed it fully before

Ros death occured at the end of The Climb.  

The scene of Ros death that had a jump cut is just a close up of Ros panning up.  Nothing indicate anyone other than Joffrey is in the Royal Chambers. 

[Wavey Sauce]

Ros death occured at the end of The Climb.  

The scene of Ros death that had a jump cut is just a close up of Ros panning up.  Nothing indicate anyone other than Joffrey is in the Royal Chambers. 

Watch it again. and on the wiki it does confirm it. Yes Joffrey wanted a human to kill. but he had Marg do it with him. They already spoke when she seduced/played him how she would like to shoot and kill something, which really turned Joffrey on. But after it showed Ros dead with Joff there, it flipped a quick scene to Marg, where she looks beside herself, guilty and sad as heck. Most likely was put into a position where she had to prove her love to Joff and didn;t want to mess things up by telling him no and that it was wrong. With the scene where they were together, to the final scene with Ros dead, and showed Marg, strong implied she was there when it happened. One of the producers confirmed it