(BOOK SPOILER) TOWER OF JOY

[DragonsHungry]

I have noticed that D&D tend to do a lot of foreshadowing in the show, and since GRRM told them how he intends for the story to end, I hope they don't try to foreshadow the 6th and 7th books which we haven't read yet. I can spot foreshadowing from a distance and I hope they don't ruin the story for us.

D&D and HBO are not waiting around for the books, that has been stated already, so its likely you are going to see stuff from WoW/ADOS on TV before the next two books come out, unless George gets out 2 books before the next five years.

[Warhawk137]

this is so unlikely though. they way money is stretched on this show and characters are reluctantly introduced. they are just simply not going to cast multiple parts and bring back sean bean to do something they do with a one paragraph story. they arent going to have all the dialogue. just the basic factors at play

That's why I inserted the caveat "if it does, indeed, prove to be important later on." We know Martin's been feeding at least some plot details regarding the end of the series to D&D, which is not only useful if he fails to get the books done within the time frame, but also as a mechanism to avoid cutting anything that may be important later on (that's the kind of thing J.K. Rowling was doing with regards to the Harry Potter movies). The odd thing is that the TV series may end up spoiling the books to a certain degree, not in those last 2 seasons, but in regards to the type of thing they decide they have to set up for those seasons - so, we're kind of in a situation where the amount of attention D&D give to the ToJ thing may signify, by implication, the importance of that plot point in the books. And if they go full-fledged flashback, spending the money to get Sean Bean to show up for a couple days of shooting and adding new characters to an already somewhat unwieldy cast, that would be a pretty obvious signal that it's going to be important later on. Even beyond that, though, the level of discussion and exposition regarding ToJ via Jojen/Bran could signify that, and if they really don't delve into it at all, then that might signify it's a red herring in the books.

Point being, D&D's choices of what scenes to include or add relative to the books, while usually reflective of the different medium, may in some cases be suggestive of where the plot is ultimately going to go in those books that haven't been finished yet, in a "you're going to be glad you put this in later" kind of way.

I have noticed that D&D tend to do a lot of foreshadowing in the show, and since GRRM told them how he intends for the story to end, I hope they don't try to foreshadow the 6th and 7th books which we haven't read yet. I can spot foreshadowing from a distance and I hope they don't ruin the story for us.

Possible solution: throw in some non-obvious red herrings and then explicitly state there are red herrings in the show, but don't say what they are. :leer:

[mafalda]

D&D and HBO are not waiting around for the books, that has been stated already, so its likely you are going to see stuff from WoW/ADOS on TV before the next two books come out, unless George gets out 2 books before the next five years.

Well that sucks. Given the time between AFFC and DWD that will most likely happen too.

Step on it, GRRM! DragonsHungry, do you happen to have the link to that interview? I feel like it's rare that D&D actually gives an interview that I care about... not meaning to say that they give useless interviews or anything (especially since I enjoy their commentaries at the end of every eppy), I just feel that every interview is about the current season, instead of the direction of the show. Thanks!

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

I think that they will not spoil the books and probably do something different than what Martin plans. I cannot see them spoiling it.

[DragonsHungry]

I think that they will not spoil the books and probably do something different than what Martin plans. I cannot see them spoiling it.

Well that sucks. Given the time between AFFC and DWD that will most likely happen too.

Step on it, GRRM! DragonsHungry, do you happen to have the link to that interview? I feel like it's rare that D&D actually gives an interview that I care about... not meaning to say that they give useless interviews or anything (especially since I enjoy their commentaries at the end of every eppy), I just feel that every interview is about the current season, instead of the direction of the show. Thanks!

I think this is a link.They basically say they would like the books to come up, but will not hold up the show, if they are not out they will keep on rolling and already talked to GRRM about events down the road.

http://www.hitfix.com/whats-alan-watching/game-of-thrones-producers-say-season-3-as-big-as-were-going-to-get

[Hodor's manhood]

There has never been any flashback scenes yet so maybe when Bran learns how to use his greensight there will be some and we will get to see what happened in the Tower of Joy. I personally think that Lyanna Stark died in childbirth, and Jon Snow was her baby (with Rhagar) and Ned had to claim him to stop Robert from killing kim, Lyanna got Ned to promise to look after him. Thats probably coming up in book 6 or 7 I hope!

[Silverx2]

I think it would be a possibility to bring back beloved characters. Even if it is only in one scene.

Sorry but sean beans contract clearly states he has to die at the end, and there is no way they are going to be able to get away with killing him twice.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

I think this is a link.They basically say they would like the books to come up, but will not hold up the show, if they are not out they will keep on rolling and already talked to GRRM about events down the road.

http://www.hitfix.co...re-going-to-get

I liked this quote, "There's no hard and fast rule for deviating from the books: As with the timing of the Reeds' introduction, Benioff and Weiss look at what will be best for the show, while remaining as faithful as they can to Martin's text."

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

There has never been any flashback scenes yet so maybe when Bran learns how to use his greensight there will be some and we will get to see what happened in the Tower of Joy. I personally think that Lyanna Stark died in childbirth, and Jon Snow was her baby (with Rhagar) and Ned had to claim him to stop Robert from killing kim, Lyanna got Ned to promise to look after him. Thats probably coming up in book 6 or 7 I hope!

The nearest they came to a flashback was Sean Bean hearing steel on steel as he was watching Arya and Syrio with their training swords.

[Envie]

Flashbacks with the actual actors would definitely be expensive (unless they already shot those prior to the death of Ned in season 1) - but it's not entirely out of the question. More than likely, since they like using exposition so much, that is the route they'll go with visions and green-dreams etc.

I do hope we get more hints about Tower of Joy. It's one of the biggest mysteries of the books that many of us have always wanted revealed and not just to end the endless debate about Jon Snow's real parentage.

[episodenone]

Loads of people on this site were certain that Aegon was alive amongst other guesses that have been right in my limited time here. And in other series, WOT fans basically predicted everything that ever happened in the books, and every non-Ass-Pull (i.e not related to the Hallows which were an awful device) twist in Harry Potter to name another couple. Changing a plot just to spite people who guessed it is so petty, I'm sure GRRM won't do it. Not that I'm certain that R+L=J but whatever the things that lead to it in the books as a vaild conclusion need to be explained away if it isn't true, and in a credible way. It's just very hard to make truly unpredictable twists without refusing any foreshadowing (an Ass-Pull, generally seen as poor writing) in a medium as reliant on themes and foreshadowing and as scrutable (if that's a word) as literature, so lots of accurate fan theories will constantly be produced, especially with a fan base as active and interactive as this one

While I obviously could not create a survey of all the right guesses vs. wrong guesses -- imho -- even a broken clock...

I highly doubt just because some people were able to get a few right that the number of wrong ones would even compare.

I've seen it in BSG, SW, and a variety of other franchises myself.

[Kasrith]

Did anyone else notice that after Bran said that Howland Reed saved Ned's life during the rebellion Jojen responded that he saw it with his green sight? I think this is foreshadowing to the big reveal at the tower of joy?

I don't know if someone else has said this. But Jojen never said he saw Howland save Ned. What he said was he saw the Rebellion. He never specified ToJ, I think readers are just grasping at straws and hoping for a ToJ scene :P

He may offer insight into the Targ history, but that's all that is implied by what they actually said.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

I don't know if someone else has said this. But Jojen never said he saw Howland save Ned. What he said was he saw the Rebellion. He never specified ToJ, I think readers are just grasping at straws and hoping for a ToJ scene :P

He may offer insight into the Targ history, but that's all that is implied by what they actually said.

I agree with that. I wouldn't be surprised if they do not broach it all.

[Stannis the Wight]

The levels of character assassination are really through the roof

[Freebird6699]

Yeah, now that I think about it, this could realy work well. The problem with how the books are set up is that there's really no good way to get some of this information across via Ned Stark's internal monologues, and perhaps even more importantly, with Ned out of the picture, choosing to follow the books strictly in this respect would have the effect of dropping the subplot after the first season, which could cause confusion if it does, indeed, prove to be important later on. See, it works fine in book form when you can really reach way, way back for a chekhov's gun, because of the level of analysis that readers of a book series go through in the process, but in television, dropping a subplot only to pick it back up in like 6 or 7 years is going to throw viewers for a bit of a loop.

So, keep an eye out for any casting calls for Rhaegar Targaryen or Arthur Dayne, because that means we're about to take a stroll down Flashback Avenue.

Actually if you google Tower of Joy, you will see a very good flashback from Ned, from season one that was cut. It uses sketches and a narrator,but it is very good. They don't even have to cast for anyone.

[SwordOfDoom]

IF they were going to do a flashback to the tower of joy they should have done it during the first season when the most important character in that scene was alive. Ned Stark has the quick cut scene of it in A game of thrones. (Below). Without meeting Howland Reed I don't believe a cut scene of the Tower of Joy will be seen.

“I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them. “We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered. “Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell. “When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.” “Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.” “I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.” “Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne. “Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.” “Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell. “But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.” “Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm. “We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold. Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three. “And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light. “No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends."

My favorite chapter in Game of Thrones. IMO nothing from Roberts Rebellion will be in the show.

[Montey14]

I know flashbacks can be very cheesey....but this is a very important scene....and the producers should have found a way to get it in the first season ...especially Neds dreams of his sister.....they should have had the viewers asking what it was the she made him promise.....and why was the bed full of blood....Bran seeing Neds prayers through the wierwoods is the only way to get this across to the readers as well as viewers....but from what Jojen proclaims in that scene.....he already knows the truth about Jon and we just might get it from him on the TV show....this is very interesting.....I don't recall Jojen ever admiting to Bran that he saw the Tower of Joy scene in his dreams.....i remember them telling Bran about the tourney in Harranhal and how Leanna fell in love with Rheagar.......but then again the whole sequence of how the Reeds and Bran meet up is all screwed up compared to the book

[DragonsHungry]

I liked this quote, "There's no hard and fast rule for deviating from the books: As with the timing of the Reeds' introduction, Benioff and Weiss look at what will be best for the show, while remaining as faithful as they can to Martin's text."

I think as something as big as the Tower of Joy, even if it came out on the TV show before the books, George is the one who is telling them huge plot points, for example if R+L = J, was true, the producers likely would know, so I am not worried about some radical change.

They won't deviate from the big points of the story, certainly not from that point.

I think Jojen saying he saw the Tower of Joy is just another nod to people who have read the book, like the mention about Tyrion losing his nose, its an easter egg.

We got a little exposition about Rhaegar and Lyanna albiet biased from Robert in season one, this is just another clue, likely more will come out over the next seasons until they are ready to deal with it more seriously.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

I think as something as big as the Tower of Joy, even if it came out on the TV show before the books, George is the one who is telling them huge plot points, for example if R+L = J, was true, the producers likely would know, so I am not worried about some radical change.

They won't deviate from the big points of the story, certainly not from that point.

I think Jojen saying he saw the Tower of Joy is just another nod to people who have read the book, like the mention about Tyrion losing his nose, its an easter egg.

We got a little exposition about Rhaegar and Lyanna albiet biased from Robert in season one, this is just another clue, likely more will come out over the next seasons until they are ready to deal with it more seriously.

He never said that he saw the ToJ. He said that he saw The Rebellion. I think we are getting ahead of ourselves.

[Montey14]

I'd have to watch the scene again....but when Bran tells Jojen that Howland saved his father .....he prceeds to tell bran that he saw it through a dream and that his father never told him of the incident.....i do n't th ink he was talking about the rebellion in general.....I'd have to watch the scene again....