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old gods and new gods and red god


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I seem to recall an interesting discussion from a Heresey thread suggesting that Jon might be Azor Azhi, and Mel just doesn't quite understand what that means, and he will be instrumental in reaching some sort of resolution with the Ice Force in the far north, but not by using fire magic. And Dany might be PtwP, which is the Targ version of the legend, and will be instrumental in reaching some sort of resolution with the Fire Force in old Valyria.

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As for the Gods are conserned, I like what the kindly old man says to Arya. He basically said that all of these gods that so many different people believe in and follow are all the many different faces of the same god. That the god of many faces is the god that you believe in and in the end they all lead back to him. I believe the septor that was traveling with Brienne had mentioned something to the same effect, when reagarding the seven gods. He was telling Pod that people have narrowed down the seven into distinct groups, but they should broden out there scopes to a better understanding of what the seven truly mean. I think that runs in accordence with what the kindly old man was telling Arya.

In my opinion I agree with the kindly old man, man will minipulate the faith to benifit themselves, and I think over time the minuplations become facts and passed down from generation to generation.

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The problem in my view is that you confuse Jon and Bran's roles. Jon doesn't represent the pure Starks. Bran does. He is the original Stark come again.

So you have Bran representing the Old Gods, and Dany representing the force of Fire. Jon is the one that straddles these two realms. He is the ONLY one that is capable of straddling it, due to his unique parental combination.

Hence, he is NOT a pure representation of the side opposing Fire. That's Bran. Jon's is the Song of Ice AND Fire.

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Yes but its still a straightforward question which no-one seems to be thinking through

I fully get the notion that Jon can be said to "straddle" both Ice and Fire but what does that mean in practical terms?

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Yes but its still a straightforward question which no-one seems to be thinking through

I fully get the notion that Jon can be said to "straddle" both Ice and Fire but what does that mean in practical terms?

Well of course that's at the heart of the mystery that lies ahead. We can't figure out every last detail in advance. We can speculate a dozen different outcomes, but none of them might be correct.

I still don't think the Old Gods represent the power of Ice. I think they oppose both Fire AND Ice. They represent the power of the Earth. Which was clearly a seperate power as listed in Jojen and Meera's ancient oath to the Starks.

The Children are those who sing the Song of the Earth, in their own tongue. They represent life. Both Fire and Ice represent death. I think Jon's task is to either destroy or severely reduce the power of both Ice and Fire, in order for the power of the Earth to reign supreme once more. Thus destroying both long summers and long winters.

The power of the Earth represents nature, which allows life to flourish. The powers of Ice and Fire try to usurp nature as can be seen through the unnaturally long seasons that harm the normal cycle of life.

Ice and Fire are ALIEN powers, that need to be destroyed or diminished - probably by neutralizing each other in some kind of cataclysmic confrontation, with Jon as the catalyst at its centre. Allowing Bran to bring back the power of the Old Gods once more.

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Man if Jon is suppose to straddle both Ice and Fire, and has to battle to destroy or diminish them both, its gonna suck for him. On one side he has his brother and on the other his sister. Of course you have to assume that R+L=J. I personally look at the ice and fire as more of not so much a destroy but rather put back in check., I think that Jon will have to, some how, but fire and Ice back into a balance. Obviously we can not have Ice marching down out of the north, nor can we have 3 dragons running around just laying waste to fields and towns.

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The problem in my view is that you confuse Jon and Bran's roles. Jon doesn't represent the pure Starks. Bran does. He is the original Stark come again.

So you have Bran representing the Old Gods, and Dany representing the force of Fire. Jon is the one that straddles these two realms. He is the ONLY one that is capable of straddling it, due to his unique parental combination.

Hence, he is NOT a pure representation of the side opposing Fire. That's Bran. Jon's is the Song of Ice AND Fire.

I think you're contradicting yourself a bit- if John represents ice and fire, how does he straddle Bran's Old Gods (children of the forest, weirwoods) and the fire realm, and also have a foot in ice? Maybe he's got a third leg like hodor.

Further, there is no reason to think that the Starks are any more connected than the old gods than Targaryans, as BloodRaven is also a greenseer, but not a Stark. A long shot here, but what Bran and Bloodraven might share "genetically" that brings them closer to the old gods actually comes from their mothers: Bloodraven's mother was a blackwood, which is sworn to house Tully, and I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility that a female Tully married into the Blackwoods at some point in the not too distant past.

I think that Starkiness is definitely related to ice. The house greatsword was named "Ice," and that's one of the first things we see. Their sigil is the direwolf, which appears to come from the land of ice and snow, also the first thing we see. I think the important thing to keep in mind is that it could easily be staring you right in the face- everyone gets worked up with the implications of his targ/stark lineage, but Jon's Name is Lord Snow.

I think the First Men worship the COTF/Old Gods because they helped save them from the long night, and they are a seemingly more benevolent (I would say balanced) force than Ice, but I think the Starks are more predisposed to be able to work "ice magic" than other First Men descendants, and even though it's a taboo to do so bc it's such a powerful force if put in the wrong hands, they actually can exercise sufficient control to weild it for the good of the earth, so the Old Gods mediate the relationship between Men and Ice so that the Starks don't go overboard, but when it looks like there's abuout to be an apocolypse, they help a Stark get in touch with the Ice Magic to put things in balance. And what better person to work out a deal with Ice in the Far north than a lord named snow who has already shown the willingness to break taboos associated with things north of the wall in order to protect men from destruction?

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Kind of the million dollar question. I'm guessing some starks screwed some others, and some Targs screwed some Fire Demons (like Stannis boning mel)

In addition to screwing, they made blood/human sacrafices. Dany made a huge sacrafice to the fire to get her dragons, and Craster's kept it real with the Others by sacraficing his sons (and, I have started to be convinced that it was a stark getting nasty up in the nightfort). You make a sacrafice, you get power that's neither good nor evil. What you do with that power is up to you, and will be what's good or bad, not the power itself. But, if the earth itself is at risk, the protectors of earth are going to allow enough men to get bit in the ass by those forces in order to restore balance.

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