Top 7 military commanders in ASOIAF (including Robert's Rebellion)

[DurararaFTW]

Euron: Look! I planned this attack on the Lannister fleet and now they have no ships!

(A sensible) Balon: Good for you! Now what is your plan for the Redwyne and the Royal fleets, and the fleets our enemies will build after we destroy those two?

Euron:....Look! I planned this attack on the Lannister fleet and now they have no ships!

Balon: Yes, yes, I get that, but what is your plan for the others?

Euron:.... I don't actually... have one...

Balon:...Go to your room.

Euron: Ok...

When did it become Euron's job to destroy every threat to (a "sensible") Balon's crown?

Sensible Balon isn't very sensible at all if you ask me, crowning himself king and then excepting his brother to destroy every fleet and god knows what else all by himself so he has a chance of keeping it. And who the hell says he didn't have any plan for the other fleets?? What we know is that Stannis defeated them. Pretty much everyone acknowledged that Stannis is the superior commander.

He promised them Westeros. Right now it doesn't look like he can take on a distracted Reach.

Robb set out to get Arya and Sansa back. He never got close to much as seeing the walls of King's Landing in his entire life. Daenerys set out to conquer Westeros five books ago. She's never even gotten close. It took quite a while fo Aerys to take Robert seriously too.

[King Aerys the Just]

Tyrion gambled everything on him being able to destroy 100% of Stannis's fleet in one go. It's a plan that is almost guranteed to fail, and it does. He spends time and metal on building the chain, instead of arming and training more men out of the hundreds of thousends in the city. Without Garlan arriving in time, wearing Renly's armor, the city would have fallen. Cersie couldn't hold Maegor's keep, troops were already running from there as well.

I don't remember how much time Tyrion had to prepare for the attack. As in, if it would have been enough to train significant extra numbers of soldiers, as well as enough time to use that saved metal for forging equipment for them. I think it is doubtful.

Also imagine how many troops Stannis would have been able to ship over if he had retained the better part of his fleet (as well as retreating with them later) and how that would have affected the morale of the Gold Cloaks, if nothing else, since they were low on that already due to basically being armed civilians and cops. All it took was some battering on the gate and Joffrey falling back to break them. I doubt a few thousand more of them would have helped more than blasting Stannis's fleet did.

I don't disagree that Tyrion would have lost the city if it hadn't been for Garlan, but I don't see how he could have made any other decisions to really change that fact either. Stannis outnumbered him with 5 to 1 on paper and even more in reality due to having an army composed of high quality cavalry and other real soldiers, which Tyrion only had a few hundred of. His decision to disperse the Mountain Clans in the Kingswood to have them harry the enemy and deprive Stannis of scouts was also a good one, though I suppose that wouldn't take a genius to figure out.

But I think he did well with what he had, which really was not a lot.

[Nyrhex]

Who knows ? We're not told. That doesn't mean you have carte blanche to make stuff up.

It also doesn't mean we should assume he is top tier based on one good raid.

Nope. Plans and executes with Vic. You're simply wrong here.

You are correct, my bad. So does this mean he was with Vic at Fair Isle? We don't know. But Victarion is acting commander, so he gets the blame. Euron would get some as well, if he was there. So far he has one good raid and then absense from any other ingagement. If he isn't there, good thinking on his part, staying away from defeats...

Again, incorrect. Victarion is there with him on the attack on the Lannister fleet, and he commands the Iron Fleet (that's his position, after all) during the Shield Invasion. What's Euron doing ? Well Vic tells us himself (if in his own biased pov); Euron is taking the Shield Islands.

Euron had sent Torwold Browntooth and the Red Oarsman up the Mander with a dozen swift longships, so the lords of the Shield Islands

would spill forth in pursuit. By the time his main fleet arrived, only a handful of fighting men remained to defend the isles themselves. The

ironborn had come in on the evening tide, so the glare of the setting sun would keep them hidden from the greybeards in the watchtowers

until it was too late. The wind was at their backs, as it had been all the way down from Old Wyk. It was whispered about the fleet that Euron’s

wizards had much and more to do with that, that the Crow’s Eye appeased the Storm God with blood sacrifice. How else would he have dared

sail so far to the west, instead of following the shoreline as was the custom?

Who were held by a handful of men. The main battle is at sea. Again, another well planned raid, which Victarion handles most of the actuall fighting. But other then allowing raiding, what does it offer for the war effort? Nothing, except getting the kingdom with the largest army and navy to notice him.

I don't portray anything. You're the one making stuff up according to your own viewpoint. I'm simply stating what we've been told by GRRM. Have we been told every action Euron did during Balon's rebellion ? No, we haven't really been told all that much about it other than in a secondary manner. Speculation about who did or didn't do things remains just that....speculative.

You try and place him at top tier because he plans and join Victarion in executing one good raid. We need to know if he just stayed away from the other battles, which were defeats, or if he took part and shares the blame. But either way, it's still not that impressive.

This is true, so you can't count that against him when it comes to command ability.

I wasn't. The battle at Seaguard is proof that the burning of the Lannister fleet served no real porpuse, as getting a foothold on the mainland is too difficult, and the iron Fleet was probably needed there more. We don't know anything about the Lannister fleet. It can be massive, it can be small. Attacking it didn't change the fact that the Ironborn lost at sea, and it probably meant that they lost on land because they lacked the men at Seaguard. Blame it on poor planning on Balon's side, blame it on Rodrik. I don't care. But so far I remain unimpressed with the attack on Lannisport, or on the Shield Islands.

No real effect eh ? Funny. I guess Lee's victories had no real effect on the american civil war either then, since his side eventually lost. Right. You tried this line of "reasoning" before, and I showed how ridiculous it is, I have no wish or need to do so again.

You already tried that argument. I am not saying that the battle isn't impressive because they lost. I am saying it is unimpressive because that it was not worth the effort back in the planning stage, but they went with it anyway because they thought they can win. There is a difference between fighting a battle because you think you can win, and because it actually serves a porpuse.

When did it become Euron's job to destroy every threat to (a "sensible") Balon's crown?

Sensible Balon isn't very sensible at all if you ask me, crowning himself king and then excepting his brother to destroy every fleet and god knows what else all by himself so he has a chance of keeping it. And who the hell says he didn't have any plan for the other fleets?? What we know is that Stannis defeated them. Pretty much everyone acknowledged that Stannis is the superior commander.

It isn't his job. but if all he has to show for himself is planning and joining Victarion in one good raid, and then he doesn't show anything else to justify putting him in a top tier list, then all he has is planning one good raid. Nothing too special.

Robb set out to get Arya and Sansa back. He never got close to much as seeing the walls of King's Landing in his entire life. Daenerys set out to conquer Westeros five books ago. She's never even gotten close. It took quite a while fo Aerys to take Robert seriously too.

The point is that he doesn't show any plan on how to give them Westeros. Victarion won't get back before they have to battle the Reach, and they can't win. What is he planning? We don't know. It's possible he has an ace in the hole. It's also possible he is as mad as Balon and doesn't actually have one. As of now, there is no reason to put him in a list of top tier commanders.

I don't remember how much time Tyrion had to prepare for the attack. As in, if it would have been enough to train significant extra numbers of soldiers, as well as enough time to use that saved metal for forging equipment for them. I think it is doubtful.

Also imagine how many troops Stannis would have been able to ship over if he had retained the better part of his fleet (as well as retreating with them later) and how that would have affected the morale of the Gold Cloaks, if nothing else, since they were low on that already due to basically being armed civilians and cops.

I don't disagree that Tyrion would have lost the city if it hadn't been for Garlan, but I don't see how he could have made any other decisions to really change that fact either. Stannis outnumbered him with 5 to 1 on paper and even more in reality due to having an army composed of high quality cavalry and other real soldiers, which Tyrion only had a few hundred of. His decision to disperse the Mountain Clans in the Kingswood to have them harry the enemy and deprive Stannis of scouts was also a good one, though I suppose that wouldn't take a genius to figure out.

According to the globle timeline thread (not certain, so give or take a few days):

08/01/299 Tyrion 10 Hears news of WW and RR. Tyrion sent to court

10/02/299 COK Tyrion 1 Tyrion becomes hand

21/10/299 COK Sansa 6 Stannis' sails. Battle of the blackwater

He has enough time. If he uses a fraction of the avilable manpower he can get even or greater numbers then Stannis, and decently trained. Since Stannis is sure to cross no matter what, he should have bet on the land battle, and put the emphasis on that during the preparations. Instead he destroys both his and Stannis's fleets, and then faces Stannis's army with cops and militia. How was he hoping to defend against Renly, who was coming overland, I have no idea.

[King Aerys the Just]

According to the globle timeline thread (not certain, so give or take a few days):

08/01/299 Tyrion 10 Hears news of WW and RR. Tyrion sent to court

10/02/299 COK Tyrion 1 Tyrion becomes hand

21/10/299 COK Sansa 6 Stannis' sails. Battle of the blackwater

He has enough time. If he uses a fraction of the avilable manpower he can get even or greater numbers then Stannis, and decently trained. Since Stannis is sure to cross no matter what, he should have bet on the land battle, and put the emphasis on that during the preparations. Instead he destroys both his and Stannis's fleets, and then faces Stannis's army with cops and militia. How was he hoping to defend against Renly, who was coming overland, I have no idea.

Wow. Okay, if he had that long then I take back what I said.

The only possible excuse for Tyrion I can come up with would be that he could have lacked the necessary funds for outfitting a real army, suppose. But that sounds pretty weak.

[Nyrhex]

Wow. Okay, if he had that long then I take back what I said.

The only possible excuse for Tyrion I can come up with would be that he could have lacked the necessary funds for outfitting a real army, suppose. But that sounds pretty weak.

I have a better one. He isn't a commander and we shouldn't blame him for losing. He was acting hand, and he thought he should be responsible for setting up the defenses. He failed as hand to gather professional advisors, and wasted time in political games in internal KL affairs more then he planned the defense. He did not spend his whole life training like Jaime and other lords' sons, and it was only his sense of pride and arrogance that made him think he is fit to orgenise the defense of the city.

He tried his best, reading books and all. But it's a sad excuse for a commander.

[King Aerys the Just]

I have a better one. He isn't a commander and we shouldn't blame him for losing. He was acting hand, and he thought he should be responsible for setting up the defenses. He failed as hand to gather professional advisors, and wasted time in political games in internal KL affairs more then he planned the defense. He did not spend his whole life training like Jaime and other lords' sons, and it was only his sense of pride and arrogance that made him think he is fit to orgenise the defense of the city.

He tried his best, reading books and all. But it's a sad excuse for a commander.

Well didn't Tywin want him to take care of the defense of the city? Otherwise he should have said something or sent someone else in addition to Tyrion. That King's Landing was well defended should be pretty critical for his plans after all. Or Tyrion was supposed to find and appoint an acting commander in King's Landing by himself I suppose. Yeah, he messed that up.

[Nyrhex]

Well didn't Tywin want him to take care of the defense of the city? Otherwise he should have said something or sent someone else in addition to Tyrion. That King's Landing was well defended should be pretty critical for his plans after all. Or Tyrion was supposed to find and appoint an acting commander in King's Landing by himself I suppose. Yeah, he messed that up.

He is acting Hand. He should get advisors that know what they are doing, not plan everything by himslef. He was in a crap situation, as not only did he have virtually no one he can trust, the city watch was Slynt's leftover and new recruits. Finding adequate commanders who could advise him is tricky from the start. Tywin didn't bother to send someone because he has no idea just how bad things are down there (and because he was too sure of himself, and thought he could take on Robb, win and be back for tea and kicking Renly/Stannis' ass). There are very few people who may be a good enough choice for a war council (some of the KG, Clegane especially, there were some lords and knights and sellswords in the city, might as well try and find a couple that have experiance, like Bronn, but Bronn is only one opinion, and relying on just one opinion isn't a good idea).

[Lord Reaver]

It also doesn't mean we should assume he is top tier based on one good raid.

It's more than that, as you acknowledge yourself.

And, who on that "top tier" has more than two decisive victories that are 100% attributed to them and not speculation ? I count only Robert, Robb (if we disregard the fact his victories largely can be attributed to his advisors), and Stannis.

If he isn't there, good thinking on his part, staying away from defeats...

Or it could just be happenstance.

Who were held by a handful of men. The main battle is at sea. Again, another well planned raid, which Victarion handles most of the actuall fighting. But other then allowing raiding, what does it offer for the war effort? Nothing, except getting the kingdom with the largest army and navy to notice him.

The main battle is at sea because Euron's tactics made it so. I never said Euron was a superb fighter (there are other threads discussing that issue, btw), but then again that's not the objective here.

It offers for the war effort all the resources from the Mander area. Pretty substantial, that.

You try and place him at top tier because he plans and join Victarion in executing one good raid.

Hint: When you have to use the word "again", it's probably about something that happened more than once.

We need to know if he just stayed away from the other battles, which were defeats, or if he took part and shares the blame. But either way, it's still not that impressive.

More impressive than about half of the people on the "top tier" lists I've seen so far. Many of those are there purely because of hearsay and speculation.

You already tried that argument.

Sure did. And when you stop using that silly line of "reasoning", I'll stop making it.

I am not saying that the battle isn't impressive because they lost. I am saying it is unimpressive because that it was not worth the effort back in the planning stage, but they went with it anyway because they thought they can win. There is a difference between fighting a battle because you think you can win, and because it actually serves a porpuse.

The sack of the Lannister fleet was what made an attack on Seagard possible at all. The fact that it failed is again no argument that the naval operation shouldn't have been carried out. It was by no means certain that the assault on Seagard would fail, only someone talking from hindsight could possibly reach that conclusion and hence the conclusion that the sack of Lannister was without "porpuse".

[King Aerys the Just]

He is acting Hand. He should get advisors that know what they are doing, not plan everything by himslef. He was in a crap situation, as not only did he have virtually no one he can trust, the city watch was Slynt's leftover and new recruits. Finding adequate commanders who could advise him is tricky from the start. Tywin didn't bother to send someone because he has no idea just how bad things are down there (and because he was too sure of himself, and thought he could take on Robb, win and be back for tea and kicking Renly/Stannis' ass). There are very few people who may be a good enough choice for a war council (some of the KG, Clegane especially, there were some lords and knights and sellswords in the city, might as well try and find a couple that have experiance, like Bronn, but Bronn is only one opinion, and relying on just one opinion isn't a good idea).

Yes I suppose forming a war council of experienced men is what he should have done. However if there was such a great lack of people he could rely on in the city it would have been very hard to build a new army regardless. Especially one that is led by men of sure loyalty to Joffrey rather than Stannis. But if he had eight months of time he could have sent for mercenaries from across the Narrow Sea, or for that matter called in more knights and lords from the Crownlands. This latter part especially is very strange, and probably a plot-move from GRRM in order for the Battle of the Blackwater to work. Because there is no explanation for why a region as large as the Crownlands didn't send more reinforcements to the city than the very, very meagre number they did.

[Nyrhex]

It's more than that, as you acknowledge yourself.

And, who on that "top tier" has more than two decisive victories that are 100% attributed to them and not speculation ? I count only Robert, Robb (if we disregard the fact his victories largely can be attributed to his advisors), and Stannis.

I can think of a couple others. And both of Euron's raids are only 50% Euron (Planning), and 50% Victarion (Execution).

Or it could just be happenstance.

Sure can. But it's odd, that he is with Victarion in one battle, and then he is never mentioned. I mean, he had to be somewhere, and the Iron Islands were all sieged and taken. The fleet was crushed, and the only other battle says it was other forces. It could be a cheap trick by GRRM to mention him in a victory, but not in defeat, in order to give him some credit.

The main battle is at sea because Euron's tactics made it so. I never said Euron was a superb fighter (there are other threads discussing that issue, btw), but then again that's not the objective here.

It offers for the war effort all the resources from the Mander area. Pretty substantial, that.

I know what you meant, but again, that just goes to show that he can plan a good raid. Victarion actually makes it happen. Euron's plan is good on the tactical level, but what is the point? What stratigic goal does it serve? Reaving is nice, but you just yanked a dragon by the tail. So far it's no different from Balon's plan. Attack them by surprise, "taking" thier land. Then when the enemy shows up - FLEE. What happens when the enemy does show up remains to be seen, but there is a difference between giving Euron credit and saying "well, maybe he has an ace up his sleeve", and putting him in a top tier list as if it's a fact that he actually does, and will definatly win.

Hint: When you have to use the word "again", it's probably about something that happened more than once.

Two raids. One had no effect and the other's remains to be measured.

More impressive than about half of the people on the "top tier" lists I've seen so far. Many of those are there purely because of hearsay and speculation.

Subjective.

The sack of the Lannister fleet was what made an attack on Seagard possible at all. The fact that it failed is again no argument that the naval operation shouldn't have been carried out. It was by no means certain that the assault on Seagard would fail, only someone talking from hindsight could possibly reach that conclusion and hence the conclusion that the sack of Lannister was without "porpuse".

The attack on the Lannister fleet was meant to open the way to reave along the shore. But then the Royal fleet and the Redwyne fleet arrived, and proved that no, they still can't reave along the shore. So the aim of the attack - to open the way to reaving along the shore - was not met (only for the time it took the fleets to get there). It's only a temporary window to reave, and then they are back where they started. So far, it looks like the same thing is going to happen again. If Euron's plan was dependant on eliminating the other two fleets, then it is only partially successful. If he assumed that this is all he has to do and after that it's a walk in the park he is delusional. If Balon told him to plan the raid and then did not give him any more command roles and did not wish to listen to his councill, then I would allow him the benefit of the doubt. But that scenario seems far less likely to me, and the benefit of the doubt does not get you a place on the top tier list IMO.

Yes I suppose forming a war council of experienced men is what he should have done. However if there was such a great lack of people he could rely on in the city it would have been very hard to build a new army regardless. Especially one that is led by men of sure loyalty to Joffrey rather than Stannis. But if he had eight months of time he could have sent for mercenaries from across the Narrow Sea, or for that matter called in more knights and lords from the Crownlands. This latter part especially is very strange, and probably a plot-move from GRRM in order for the Battle of the Blackwater to work. Because there is no explanation for why a region as large as the Crownlands didn't send more reinforcements to the city than the very, very meagre number they did.

Well, GRRM isn't a commander, nor did he serve in the army. You know what? I have never led 6,000 men in medieval gear to a battlefield and have only the most basic of clues of how such a thing is orgenised. He is trying to tell a story, and if he wants Tyrion to feel upset that he doesn't get recognition for what he sees as his victory he has every right to. We however, are judging him based on how we see him ,each of us with our own background. We are looking critically at the actions of a fictional charchter. Stuff doesn't have to make sense. Take a close enough look and nothing in Westeros makes sense, the economy, families ruling kingdoms for thousends of years and ending up with 5 family members pretty much every generations, etc etc.

[DurararaFTW]

You are correct, my bad. So does this mean he was with Vic at Fair Isle? We don't know. But Victarion is acting commander, so he gets the blame. Euron would get some as well, if he was there. So far he has one good raid and then absense from any other ingagement. If he isn't there, good thinking on his part, staying away from defeats...

Pretty much the whole reason he is king right now, he didn't stick around for the bad stuff.

Who were held by a handful of men. The main battle is at sea. Again, another well planned raid, which Victarion handles most of the actuall fighting. But other then allowing raiding, what does it offer for the war effort? Nothing, except getting the kingdom with the largest army and navy to notice him.

The Iron Islands doesn't have an loyal army dedicated to fighting a war, they have a whole bunch of fickle pirates. Giving them good plunder is essential to keeping up the morale. Anyway, Euron's main goal seems to be getting the dragons and everything else is just furthering his own legend. No, objectively it doesn't further the war effort. Victarion and Asha tried to make themselves king of salt and rock on that platform and where did it get them? Nowhere. The ironborm don't think like that.

I wasn't. The battle at Seaguard is proof that the burning of the Lannister fleet served no real porpuse, as getting a foothold on the mainland is too difficult, and the iron Fleet was probably needed there more. We don't know anything about the Lannister fleet. It can be massive, it can be small. Attacking it didn't change the fact that the Ironborn lost at sea, and it probably meant that they lost on land because they lacked the men at Seaguard. Blame it on poor planning on Balon's side, blame it on Rodrik. I don't care. But so far I remain unimpressed with the attack on Lannisport, or on the Shield Islands.

We don't know anything about Seaguard either except that it almost certainly doesn't offer the riches of Lannisport, and it probably didn't sport it's own battlefleet. And jesus, could you think in anymore in black and white. The Ironborn lost at sea therefore the attack on the Lannister fleet is pointless. By that logic, any attack by anyone that lost on land was pointless. As in, very nearly all of them. The Lannisters had a fleet and riches, there were allied to the crown, Balon wanted to make himself King, his strength was mostly at sea, his bannermen or what passes for them on the iron Island wanted mostly to plunder and rape stuff, Lannisport is the nearest city. I don't see how you cannot comprehend the benefit of burning the Lannister Fleet even if they were defeated in the end.

It isn't his job. but if all he has to show for himself is planning and joining Victarion in one good raid, and then he doesn't show anything else to justify putting him in a top tier list, then all he has is planning one good raid. Nothing too special.

Then why argue that a "sensible" Balon would send Euron to his room for not ALSO supplying him with a plan for conquering the rest of the world? I haven't seen any advisers, small council members or whatevs supply their warring King/Hand with the things you expect Euron to supply Balon with yet none of them ever get sent to their room even though they all are happy to weigh in on particular matters.

08/01/299 Tyrion 10 Hears news of WW and RR. Tyrion sent to court

10/02/299 COK Tyrion 1 Tyrion becomes hand

21/10/299 COK Sansa 6 Stannis' sails. Battle of the blackwater

He has enough time. If he uses a fraction of the avilable manpower he can get even or greater numbers then Stannis, and decently trained. Since Stannis is sure to cross no matter what, he should have bet on the land battle, and put the emphasis on that during the preparations. Instead he destroys both his and Stannis's fleets, and then faces Stannis's army with cops and militia. How was he hoping to defend against Renly, who was coming overland, I have no idea.

Where the hell are you getting the impression that Tyrion had a 50,000+ fighting men avialable? You think the hungry mob terrorising the city that wouldn't even take up position among the Goldcloaks for any money are gonna submit themselves to training for Tyrion's personal fighting force?

I have a better one. He isn't a commander and we shouldn't blame him for losing.

Certainly looks like you blame him for losing.

He was acting hand, and he thought he should be responsible for setting up the defenses. He failed as hand to gather professional advisors, and wasted time in political games in internal KL affairs more then he planned the defense. He did not spend his whole life training like Jaime and other lords' sons, and it was only his sense of pride and arrogance that made him think he is fit to orgenise the defense of the city.

He tried his best, reading books and all. But it's a sad excuse for a commander.

Who are the professional advisors you expect him to gather? The captain of Cersei's guard? Slynt? Lord Merryweather? The fine members of the Kingsguard? The Mountain Clans, maybe? And I have to disagree with you that the political games in KL which he played were a waste of time. For one thing, weedingout the traitors on the small council was the mission Tywin assigned him. Secondly, the only reason he knew anything about anything is because Varys told him stuff. If he just gave up on politics and made open enemies of them all he wouldn't be able to do anything and wouldn't be able to keep his sister, who worked actively against him in all things just to spite him, in check.

[Nyrhex]

The Iron Islands doesn't have an loyal army dedicated to fighting a war, they have a whole bunch of fickle pirates. Giving them good plunder is essential to keeping up the morale. Anyway, Euron's main goal seems to be getting the dragons and everything else is just furthering his own legend. No, objectively it doesn't further the war effort. Victarion and Asha tried to make themselves king of salt and rock on that platform and where did it get them? Nowhere. The ironborm don't think like that.

So? The nature of how wars are won doesn't change because your people don't think like someone else. The attack on the Shield Islands is good for plunder for a short time, but unless Euron pulls a rabbit out of his hat, it's just going to end up like the first rebellion.

We don't know anything about Seaguard either except that it almost certainly doesn't offer the riches of Lannisport, and it probably didn't sport it's own battlefleet. And jesus, could you think in anymore in black and white. The Ironborn lost at sea therefore the attack on the Lannister fleet is pointless. By that logic, any attack by anyone that lost on land was pointless. As in, very nearly all of them. The Lannisters had a fleet and riches, there were allied to the crown, Balon wanted to make himself King, his strength was mostly at sea, his bannermen or what passes for them on the iron Island wanted mostly to plunder and rape stuff, Lannisport is the nearest city. I don't see how you cannot comprehend the benefit of burning the Lannister Fleet even if they were defeated in the end.

I mixed Seaguard as taking place at the same time, so I thought at first it also inticates that the Lannister fleet was not stopping them from launching a surprise attack on Seaguard. My mistake.

Still doesn't change the fact that the action only allowed for limited reaving, and once the enemy fleets arrived it's effect proved to be temporary. Good tactic, poor strategy.

Then why argue that a "sensible" Balon would send Euron to his room for not ALSO supplying him with a plan for conquering the rest of the world? I haven't seen any advisers, small council members or whatevs supply their warring King/Hand with the things you expect Euron to supply Balon with yet none of them ever get sent to their room even though they all are happy to weigh in on particular matters.

The "sensible" Balon asked him what he plans to do with the enemy fleets, in order to show how little thinking went into it, that Euron planned well to attack one fleet, but had no idea what to do with the rest. The end was just trying to be funny.

Where the hell are you getting the impression that Tyrion had a 50,000+ fighting men avialable? You think the hungry mob terrorising the city that wouldn't even take up position among the Goldcloaks for any money are gonna submit themselves to training for Tyrion's personal fighting force?

The manpower was there. Tyrion's handling of the starving population is just one more factor that prevented him from raising more men. He prefered to invest in making his chain and wilfire.

Certainly looks like you blame him for losing.

He did lose. That much is certain. He failed to prepare on several levels and his actions during the battle could also be critisised. The point I was making is that it's easy to see why, and there was little reason to expect him to succeed.

Who are the professional advisors you expect him to gather? The captain of Cersei's guard? Slynt? Lord Merryweather? The fine members of the Kingsguard? The Mountain Clans, maybe? And I have to disagree with you that the political games in KL which he played were a waste of time. For one thing, weedingout the traitors on the small council was the mission Tywin assigned him. Secondly, the only reason he knew anything about anything is because Varys told him stuff. If he just gave up on politics and made open enemies of them all he wouldn't be able to do anything and wouldn't be able to keep his sister, who worked actively against him in all things just to spite him, in check.

Yes, he had those people. It's crap, but the little experiance and knowledge that they have is still better then the none he has. Like I said, he had a poor choice from which to draw from, which is another reason why he shouldn't be expected to win. He himself didn't expect to win, and hoped for some miracle and that his father would come to the rescue in time.

His political games is another matter. He got Pycelle out, but he can't trust Varys or Littlefinger, and either is more dangerouse then Pycelle could ever be. And Tyrion is dependent on them. But now you are changing the subject.

[DurararaFTW]

So? The nature of how wars are won doesn't change because your people don't think like someone else. The attack on the Shield Islands is good for plunder for a short time, but unless Euron pulls a rabbit out of his hat, it's just going to end up like the first rebellion.

The way and where you lead your people need to cater to the people who you are leading if you expect to keep them. And he'd have to pull a rabbit anyway, there's territory in Westeros he can take on in the field. He could've said "you lot are just gonna have to sit tight here until I ship in another army entirely to do our dirtywork for us otherwise it's never gonna happen." But that wouldn't go over very well.

Still doesn't change the fact that the action only allowed for limited reaving, and once the enemy fleets arrived it's effect proved to be temporary. Good tactic, poor strategy.

Limited reaving? What action do you feel would result in more fruitful reaving in your eyes then the city of Lannisport and the lands and islands of the Reach.

The "sensible" Balon asked him what he plans to do with the enemy fleets, in order to show how little thinking went into it, that Euron planned well to attack one fleet, but had no idea what to do with the rest. The end was just trying to be funny.

It's the eversensible Balon Greyjoy's idea to put a crown on his head making does fleets come fo him in the first place. The fact that the royal fleet and Stannis fleet are on the other side of the continent and probably can't be attacked before they are warned doesn't mean the Lannister fleet still doesn't have to be taken care off. And I know the rest wasn't meant literally but chiding someones idea for how to deal with one enemy that you decided to create for yourself because he doesn't also right away create a plan for dealing with all the other enemies you decided to create for yourself is very very stupid.

The manpower was there. Tyrion's handling of the starving population is just one more factor that prevented him from raising more men. He prefered to invest in making his chain and wilfire.

WHERE? Show me the hundred thousand man strong armies present in KL that the many other commanders that have since come to King's Landing made us of.

Yes, he had those people. It's crap, but the little experiance and knowledge that they have is still better then the none he has. Like I said, he had a poor choice from which to draw from, which is another reason why he shouldn't be expected to win. He himself didn't expect to win, and hoped for some miracle and that his father would come to the rescue in time.

Experience don't equal worth. I think Jon's Dance of Dragons chapter are an optimistic representation of how those talks would go. None of these guys would know what they are talking about even half as well as, say Bowen Marsh would.

His political games is another matter. He got Pycelle out, but he can't trust Varys or Littlefinger, and either is more dangerouse then Pycelle could ever be. And Tyrion is dependent on them. But now you are changing the subject.

Uh, no. You're the one that brought up him "wasting his time" with political games. He was dependent on Littlefinger and Varys because they made themselves irreplaceable neccesary. And Cersei is the Queen-Regent, he can't just choose to not deal with her at all, she is by all rights his sovereign (and Tywins as well for that matter, but Tyrion doesn't hold his father's sway)

[Nyrhex]

Limited reaving? What action do you feel would result in more fruitful reaving in your eyes then the city of Lannisport and the lands and islands of the Reach.

Limited in time. In the Greyjoy rebellion they are trying to get independence, now Euron is trying to take over Westeros. How is reaving serving these two goals? Getting his men happy they have plunder while thier enemies take the initiative and come down to crush them?

And I know the rest wasn't meant literally but chiding someones idea for how to deal with one enemy that you decided to create for yourself because he doesn't also right away create a plan for dealing with all the other enemies you decided to create for yourself is very very stupid.

Trumping up someone for one raid as if he is a mastermind tactician when that raid is the only thing he does in the war and only buys him a few months before he is crushed is also a bit too much, wouldn't you say?

His other raid is still unclear, and it can end in a great victory out of the blue, or a stupid and known in advance defeat.

WHERE? Show me the hundred thousand man strong armies present in KL that the many other commanders that have since come to King's Landing made us of.

It's a city with half a million people. If you can't find several thousend men right there you are doing something wrong. And other then Tarly hiring some sellswords before he goes north, there is no need to raise more men. They already have about~70,000 men, and all thier enemies combined can't match that. They have realeased some men even.

[exiled prince]

Jon Connington deserves to be mentioned on any list of great commanders as well, he doesn't get much respect but the man was an exceptional commander.

yeah until Robert busted out of that whorehouse and almost painted the steps red with his blood at the battle of the bells

[greywind93]

Jfc there is so much wrong with this. Lets start with fair isle.

He did not have "the whole realm" with him, you pulled that from lord knows were. He had the royal fleet and the redwynne fleet. It is true that he had a numerical advantage over the ironborn but numbers are not the most important factor. The ironborn are the best sailors in westeros, are far more used to fighting at sea, and are far more effective in naval combat then men from the mainland. Stannis sprung a cunning trap on the ironborn that allowed him to prevent them from escaping and allowed him to use all his advantages fully in the battle to maximize his chances of success. It worked flawlessly. Had Stannis not destroyed the iron fleet Robert would not have been able to transport troops to the iron islands due to risk of getting attacked by the iron fleet, and no ship is more vulnerable then one packed with men. After this Stannis subdued great wyk in Roberts name.

Then we have the battle at the wall, and according to you that shouldn't count for some reason, well im sorry but that's complete and utter bullshit. Not only did mance have bout 20k wildling warriors(and another 80k women children and old men) but he had unconventional weapons in the form of mammoths and giants. Stannis plan was simple, launch a three pronged attack of heavy cavalry and encircle the wildlings, then bring in the infantry. The plan once again worked flawlessly as mances host was smashed.

Holding Storms end shows how iron his will is, and good a leader of men he is. All it takes is one starving man to open the gates and game over. The fact that Stannis at 17 is able to keep discipline and order in Starving men speaks volumes to his ability as a leader of men.

As for being stuck in the snow at winterfell

"Bolton has blundered," the king declared. "All he had to do was sit inside his castle whilst we starved. Instead he has sent some portion of his strength forth to give us battle. His knights will be horsed, ours must fight afoot. His men will be well nourished, ours go into battle with empty bellies. It makes no matter. Ser Stupid, Lord Too-Fat, the Bastard, let them come. We hold the ground, and that I mean to turn to our advantage."

Ever heard of alexander nevsky and the BATTLE OF ICE? Yeah well Stannis is about to pull something similar, and there is tons of foreshadowing for this.

1.The holes in the lake

2.His men are on foot

3. They hold the ground, his exact words

4.The battle in real life is even called the battle of ice, it couldn't be any more obvious.

Then there is the assault on KL. The lannisters had supreme luck and he had shitty luck. First a huge storm hit his fleet slowing them down and giving tywin and the tyrells time to ally. As well as the lannisters and tyrells having absolutely perfect timing and reaching the city very quickly. It was a loss no doubt, but the rearguard was masterfully done and allowed Stannis to get to safety.

And I will leave us with these quotes:

Stannis bristled at that. "I defeated your uncle Victarion and his Iron Fleet off Fair Isle, the first time your father crowned himself. I held Storm's End against the power of the Reach for a year, and took Dragonstone from the Targaryens. I smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall, though he had twenty times my numbers. Tell me, turncloak, what battles has the Bastard of Bolton ever won that I should fear him?"

I have felt from the beggining that Stannis was a greater threat then all the others combined.-Tywin Lannister(also note, this is after renly has 100k men and robb has smashed jaimes host)

were are you getting these quotes

[mrunderhill]

1. Robert Baratheon

Won three battles in a day, won the battle of the Trident when outnumbered, won battles when outnumbered 5 to 1. Only ever lost one battle was famous for his bold tactics and forced marches to surprise opposition. Won the Iron Throne.

2. Robb Stark

Undefeated and managed to defeat Tywin and Jaime, both skilled commanders. Very innovative with his tactics and had a knack for surprising enemies.

3. Stannis Baratheon

Won the battle of the wall where he defeated foes outnumbering his forces around 20 to 1. Took Dragonstone from the Targaryen's, laid the trap that destroyed the Iron Fleet giving Victarion his only ever defeat

4. Eddard Stark

Helped lead the rebellion, and Martin mentions him as a great commander. Taught his sons: Robb, Theon and Jon very well.

5. Randyll Tarly

Called the finest soldier in the kingdom. The only man to ever defeat Robert Baratheon

6. Victarion Greyjoy

Had only one defeat against Stannis. Managed to lead the attack on Lannisport and has countless other victories. He took Moat Callin.

7. Tywin Lannister

Though he was more of a politician he led many succesful military campaigns. Destroyed the Reynes and the Tarbecks, was the saviour of Kings Landing and accepted as being better than the young Jon Connington by most people.

[JonathanTheBold]

The only commander that matters is Aegon the Conqueror he conquered 6 of 7 kingdom and started out with 1200 men and 3 dragons even with dragons that's not an easy task