Targaryen madness, Rhaegar and Jon?

[Ghost's Shadow]

Jon's Fire is nicely tempered in Ice. It's a pretty good combo.

Why is everyone skipping over Dany?

[Sansa_Stark]

Forgot all about Rhaegal but....

Jon's Fire is nicely tempered in Ice. It's a pretty good combo.

Why is everyone skipping over Dany?

She's going down the path of madness right now.

[Skeksi]

I don't see any signs of madness emerging in Jon at the points of the novels. It's possible that, assuming he survives the events of ADwD that they might start to manifest themselves after this, or perhaps later in life, but I wouldn't say we'd seen any signs of it yet.

I always assumed Rhaegar had the Targaryen madness. The whole believing himself to be a fulfillment of the prophecy, then believing that he had to fulfill the prophecy, and that he had to have three children, and so on and so on, without actually trying to find out what the threat was and how else it could be combatted, and despite the fact that his actions were likely to result in some significant political fallout (even if he didn't foresee all out civil war), etc. Either these were early signs of a type of madness, which would likely have manifested itself more obviously further down the line, or he was using it as a very elaborate excuse to have an affair, which seems unlikely.

That's my thoughts, anyway. The madness was manifesting itself in Rhaegar, but not as obviously at it was in his father, but we've not seen any signs of it from Jon as yet.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Viserys was mad, Aerys was madder, and Rhaegar was the maddest of them all....

:agree:

I can see madness in Rhaegar but not in Jon yet

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Rhaegar was most likely either bipolar or suffered from depression. Two problems that aren't as much a problem for their surroundings as the "mwahaha burn everything" paranoia of Aerys II.

Jon dances somewhat close to depression or maybe bipolarity as well. He is often sullen and somewhat sad, interspersed with fits of berserker rage approximately once per book. But they are only slight traits. His work ethos and the good education/characterbuilding thanks to Ned/Mormont/Qhorin/Mance/Stannis counterbalances them as well.

Furthermore, while it may harm him in his family life and his friendships, he can't expect much of these anyway, being Lord Commander of the Nights Watch and everything. It's unlikely to harm his job.

[Blackfish Tully]

I don't see any signs of madness emerging in Jon at the points of the novels. It's possible that, assuming he survives the events of ADwD that they might start to manifest themselves after this, or perhaps later in life, but I wouldn't say we'd seen any signs of it yet.

I always assumed Rhaegar had the Targaryen madness. The whole believing himself to be a fulfillment of the prophecy, then believing that he had to fulfill the prophecy, and that he had to have three children, and so on and so on, without actually trying to find out what the threat was and how else it could be combatted, and despite the fact that his actions were likely to result in some significant political fallout (even if he didn't foresee all out civil war), etc. Either these were early signs of a type of madness, which would likely have manifested itself more obviously further down the line, or he was using it as a very elaborate excuse to have an affair, which seems unlikely.

That's my thoughts, anyway. The madness was manifesting itself in Rhaegar, but not as obviously at it was in his father, but we've not seen any signs of it from Jon as yet.

Was Rhaegar really mad? When the dead are trying to kill the living and the white walkers are coming to destroy the world of man Rhaegar seems less like a madman and more like a prophet.

[caravaggio]

Jon, probably not... Dany I could definitely see going nuts.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think Rhaegar would in today's parlance be referred to as a manic depressive or someone with bipolar disorder. And apart from having a (fiery, perhaps?) temper on occasion, I don't see any sort of nuttiness in Jon.

[Rheagar Prime]

not every targaryen is mad come on man

[Sir Noone Sword Of The Day]

well I think the Stark will tame the targaryen madness in Jon Snow, Plus not all Targaryen's were mad... Bloodraven was Aegon the Unworthy's bastard son, and they were nothing alike in personality, from what i have heard.

[mcb]

Madness is in the genes. And it develops late -- King Aerys was highly-regarded until he suffered a trauma and succumbed to madness.

Prince Rhaegar was not highly regarded to start. Then he had a massive personality change and people seemed to like him. Then he left his wife and ran off with a High Lord's daughter. Did he go mad?

And if Jon Snow is Aerys' grandson, Viserys' nephew and Rhaegar's son, could he be a ticking time-bomb too? And if he needs a catalyst, will it be his brothers' attempt to kill him?

See, madness doesn't develop late. Viserys was young, so were Aerion Brightflame and Bealor the Batshit Insane. As for Rhaegar, he wasn't considered mad in-universe, it seems to be this forum's invention. And I see no signs of mental disorders in Jon Snow, or at least no more than in every other character in the series.

well I think the Stark will tame the targaryen madness in Jon Snow,

The Starks have their patented madness, too, only it's called "wolf blood". Still, neither the Targs nor the Starks are as insane as the Lannisters. "Targaryen madness" is overrated, every family has something similar.

[Mr Smith]

Personally I think the more we see of Jon, the more we see Rhaegar in him. I think his entire ADWD arc is littered with Rhaegar. His sense of duty. His willingness to break through old fueds to do what must be done. His incredible steely focus. And at the end, his decision to leave the Night's Watch for the sake of someone he cared about seemed VERY much like the decision Rhaegar must have made to run away with Lyanna. As for madness... not all Targaryen's are mad. Martin's coin-flipping metaphor when it comes to children born of incest is more true than many people realise. Genetic research shows that children born of incest are just as likely to be highly intelligent and charismatic human beings as they are to be mentally deranged. I think Rhaegar, and Jon, are the former.

[JLE]

Of course Jon isn't born of incest - although his *theorized but not confirmed* possible father (Rhaegar) certainly was. (Of course his OFFICIAL alleged father Eddard - who may still be the real father - was very definitely not.)

But Dany was definitely born of incest, she was even brought up with the idea that had they been closer in ages she would have married Viserys, or indeed, had the real Prince Aegon lived she would have married him (although they would be uncle/niece - apparently it seems that Viserys and Daenerys were born a LOT later than their brother, late enough to be of an age with Rhaegar's children. Apparently there were 24 or 25 full years between the births of Rhaegar (at current calculations, born year 259 of the Targaryen dynasty) and Daenerys (conceived 283, born 284), which is a LONG time for Queen Rhaella to still be capable of childbearing, even assuming she started in her teens.

[StarkDragon]

If Rhaegar was indeed mad, I can imagine Jon's genetics like this:

Targ Genes: Blood and Fire!

Stark Genes: YOU! SHALL NOT! PASS!

Thus we get Jon the White (as Snow).

[Zupoleon]

There's no indication that Rhaegar had any madness - and as others have pointed out, it's not something that gets turned on like a switch. It would have shown at least a little throughout his life. Furthermore, I wouldn't go anywhere near classifying him as a manic depressive or bipolar - at best he was melancholy; and with good reason. He was married to a woman he did not love (romantically), and most likely burdened by what the prophecies he studied predicted.

[Waylin Stark]

I don't think Rhaegar was mad. Sure, his decision to run off with Lyanna was foolish, but that doesn't mean he was actually mad. Though there are chances he would have gone mad later on had he lived.

As for Jon, I highly doubt it. He's shown no signs whatsoever.

But for Dany, we might have a problem there.

[Eli Stark]

Yet she turned out to be an immature hypocrite. *Prepares for Stark fans to come to her defense, even though I'm a stark fan*

Yeah, the only reason I question the R+L=J theory is why wouldn't Lyanna or Rhaegar tell someone they are eloping? At least a letter left behind right before dropping off the grid. I'm sure plenty of people would still be really pissed, but it's better than thousands off to war over a misconception.

[Twenty of House Goodmen]

Yeah, the only reason I question the R+L=J theory is why wouldn't Lyanna or Rhaegar tell someone they are eloping? At least a letter left behind right before dropping off the grid. I'm sure plenty of people would still be really pissed, but it's better than thousands off to war over a misconception.

I can understand why they ran off with each other, although considering Westerosi customs and that they were already promised to others, it wasn't very dutiful of them. Still, thats my problem with the pair. They drop off the grid and chaos ensues. A little communication may have made a huge difference.

[Ygrain]

Yeah, the only reason I question the R+L=J theory is why wouldn't Lyanna or Rhaegar tell someone they are eloping? At least a letter left behind right before dropping off the grid. I'm sure plenty of people would still be really pissed, but it's better than thousands off to war over a misconception.

They actually might have - we have a notable lack of response to his daughter's supposed kidnapping from Rickard, and Brandon goes "raargh, I kill you" instead of "release her at once". Of course, neither is conclusive, but leaves room for things going on off the screen.

Plus, the war did NOT start over Lyanna. It started only after Aerys demanded the head of Ned and Robert and Jon Arryn rebelled against that.

[Ghost's Shadow]

There's a possibility that Benjen knew they were eloping, but he didn't or wasn't allowed to say anything before they got a good head start.

I don't think Rhaegar showed signs of the madness either, only a heavy burden from what he saw as his responsibility to produce what was needed for a prophecy.