Iron Bank of Braavos

[werewolf]

Does anyone have any idea of the extent to which the Iron Bank of Braavos owns Westeros? And is the financial and economic life of Westeros in the grip of the Braavosi?

[Corvo Attano]

The biggest debt the Crown owes is to Tywin Lannister, So I don't know if they control the economy of Westeros that much

[Fire Eater]

The IB doesn't control even half the crown's debt. After Cersei ended repayment to the IB, the IB responded by refusing any new loans to merchants as well as demanding complete repayment of their loans. This does cause some economic chaos in Westeros.

[Yi Ti Ninja]

I think a bigger question on my mind is the logistics of it. I am an accountant, and I find that having a bank having so much wealth and power in such a setting is astounding. Especially in light of the fact that everything in the world is controlled by gold or swords. How does a bank get so much money in the first place as well, from what I gather there are no stock markets or investments and it would seem unlikely that enough of the small folk or overseas merchants would place their money in the bank. Most banks are required to keep a percentage of total assets on hand; I wonder how much the bank keeps.

[Knight Of Winter]

Not really. Significant sum is owed to them by the Iron Throne (altough much less significant then debt to Tywin), so when Cersei in her wisdom ceased payment - they started to support Stannis and lend him money. In addition, NW also borrowed some money from them, but I believe that's the extent of their connection with Westerosi economy.

Not to say they'll be unimportant in the future - their money can help Stannis prolong the war ad infinitum and generally make the plot more interesting :P. But I don't think they have economic grip on many of Westerosi houses and insitutions, at least judging from the books.

[Knight Of Winter]

Especially in light of the fact that everything in the world is controlled by gold or swords. How does a bank get so much money in the first place as well

To add example from medieval history - Knights Templar were quite successful banking institution in Middle Ages. So successful and rich that, in fact, French King prefered to destroy Templars in early 14th century rather than pay his debt. Anyhow, they were renowed for their banking reputation, and deviced some innovative tricks to help them with their banking buisness. To find more, try googling Knights Templar banking: https://www.google.h...iw=1920&bih=948

edit: typos

[Tyler Stark]

The biggest debt the Crown owes is to Tywin Lannister, So I don't know if they control the economy of Westeros that much

I don't believe this is accuret, I think the biggest debt is to the bank of Bravos, and the second largest is to House Lannister

[The Storm King]

I don't believe this is accuret, I think the biggest debt is to the bank of Bravos, and the second largest is to House Lannister

thats in the tv show not in the books

[Tyler Stark]

I was basing my opinion off of my interpretation of the books, but I have only read the series once so I may be mistaken

[aedalia]

I, for one am very interested to see how this pans out. It's like the plot got hit with a giant reality stick. Stuff costs money. People who you got the money from to pay for said stuff, want their money back. The crown not having any cashy money has been a big deal for many monarchies and very much influenced how they turned out.

[Ghost's Shadow]

And what happens if Stannis dies, and someone else ends up sitting the IT? Let's say a Jon or a Dany that have nothing to do with the debts Robert made?

Do they have to take over the debt?

And if they don't, the bank would never lend them money to rebuild the realm?

[Septon Meribald]

I think a bigger question on my mind is the logistics of it. I am an accountant, and I find that having a bank having so much wealth and power in such a setting is astounding. Especially in light of the fact that everything in the world is controlled by gold or swords. How does a bank get so much money in the first place as well, from what I gather there are no stock markets or investments and it would seem unlikely that enough of the small folk or overseas merchants would place their money in the bank. Most banks are required to keep a percentage of total assets on hand; I wonder how much the bank keeps.

Well I'm sure A medieval bank is not held to any regulations in terms of cash on hand. It's really not too difficult to imagine a bank in such a setting amassing such wealth either. There is a very active trade network in the world of ice and fire. Much closer to our world in the 16th century than the 12th-15th. Each of the Free Cities has a healthy middle class it would seem, and many merchants, though acts of force are still prevalent and the rule of law is not absolute. In such a scenario where many people have more money than they need day to day and many are travelling, sometimes large distances, but where their safety is not a given it would only be natural to trust a portion of you fortune to a bank with a reputation as solid as the Iron Bank.

[KOM]

Essos economy is fairly well developed. Merchants, insurance for cargo boats, etc. Plus loans to cities, etc to cover mercenaries, etc. Plus, IBB is located in the most powerful of the Free Cities. IBB has one big loan to the IT crown. and it's indicated that they may have a few loans to more minor houses. But I wouldn't read that half of westeros is in hock to IBB. Besides IBB there's also Pentoshi banks which could lend to merchants in KL, for instance.

[The Storm King]

And what happens if Stannis dies, and someone else ends up sitting the IT? Let's say a Jon or a Dany that have nothing to do with the debts Robert made?

Do they have to take over the debt?

And if they don't, the bank would never lend them money to rebuild the realm?

the debt is owed by the iron throne. i think it doesnt matter who sits on it

i guess the debt would be void if the iron throne was just destroyed and they went back too being seven kingdoms

[Septon Meribald]

And what happens if Stannis dies, and someone else ends up sitting the IT? Let's say a Jon or a Dany that have nothing to do with the debts Robert made?

Do they have to take over the debt?

And if they don't, the bank would never lend them money to rebuild the realm?

If they take the throne with money from the Iron Bank backing them you can bet that they will be made to sign an agreement to honor the throne's debts, just as Stannis was. If they do not take funds from the Iron Bank you can safely assume the Bank would still consider them to be responsible as in their mind the debt belongs to the country not the person in charge of it. Now a Jon or a Dany might not agree with that theory, but the best they can do is not pay back the money, know they will not be allowed to borrow any more and hope that the Bank doesn't think they can find someone else who will pay them back instead.

[Septon Meribald]

the debt is owed by the iron throne. i think it doesnt matter who sits on it

i guess the debt would be void if the iron throne was just destroyed and they went back too being seven kingdoms

In the event that the kingdom dissolved, I'd expect the Bank to attempt to hold any lords of Westeros looking to do business responsible for a portion of the debt, relative to their ability to pay, so King of the Reach would inherit a larger portion of it than Lord of Barrowton. However, it will also depend on the borrower's bargaining power. If they don't need to use the Iron Bank, the Bank might choose to absolve them of any debt in the interest of creating new business.

[BloodyGoatHoat]

With Tywin dead, who does the crown pay for the debt to him? I imagine Cersei will play that to her advantage. With Tyrion on the run and Jaime in the KG, it seems like it will be hard to dispute her entitlement.

[conon394]

Well I'm sure A medieval bank is not held to any regulations in terms of cash on hand. It's really not too difficult to imagine a bank in such a setting amassing such wealth either. There is a very active trade network in the world of ice and fire. Much closer to our world in the 16th century than the 12th-15th. Each of the Free Cities has a healthy middle class it would seem, and many merchants, though acts of force are still prevalent and the rule of law is not absolute. In such a scenario where many people have more money than they need day to day and many are travelling, sometimes large distances, but where their safety is not a given it would only be natural to trust a portion of you fortune to a bank with a reputation as solid as the Iron Bank.

Fair enough but for the Iron Bank and Braavos to be such economic powers we really do need a few more 'facts' especially since they collectively do not participate in the slave trade. At minimum I would say a few hints that Braavos dominates Lorath and Ibben and and controls all trade out of the Northern waters and all such products would make sense and provide the basis for the IB to become so powerful. The great Banks of Venice or the Dutch (or way back in the day Athens) etc all road the coat tails of a certain amount of political hegemony that provided a base of security and stability and cash flow. Whale oil is a very very good lamp light if Braavos could enforce a rule that all ships out of Ibben had to be financed or transshipped via Braavos for example you can see a stable gravy train that could found the IB. But realistically the fact seems to be GRRM wants a Venice w/o really caring about the economics.

[BloodyGoatHoat]

But realistically the fact seems to be GRRM wants a Venice w/o really caring about the economics.

He also wants three perfectly healthy children that are the product of the incest of two twins. GRRM doesn't bother with petty things like the science of genetics or economics.

Edit: Any ideas about my previous question?

[Septon Meribald]

Fair enough but for the Iron Bank and Braavos to be such economic powers we really do need a few more 'facts' especially since they collectively do not participate in the slave trade. At minimum I would say a few hints that Braavos dominates Lorath and Ibben and and controls all trade out of the Northern waters and all such products would make sense and provide the basis for the IB to become so powerful. The great Banks of Venice or the Dutch (or way back in the day Athens) etc all road the coat tails of a certain amount of political hegemony that provided a base of security and stability and cash flow. Whale oil is a very very good lamp light if Braavos could enforce a rule that all ships out of Ibben had to be financed or transshipped via Braavos for example you can see a stable gravy train that could found the IB.

Well Braavos is the dominant sea power in the Narrow Sea and controls a large hinterland as well. The only Free City that comes close to them is Volantis. Being the largest and arguably the most secure port, as we have only ever heard of Braavos going to war once to stop Volantene expansion, compared to the rest of the Free Cities which seem to be at war constantly, it would be a reasonable place to do your banking. They are a natural hub for trade with Ibben and the north coast of Essos, obviously for the North as well and are closer to the Vale than any other city. Being the dominant trading power for all these places would also make it natural for them to control trade coming north through the Narrow Sea to these places as well. So I believe Braavos is a stable and profitable base for the Iron Bank.