The Storm King Posted April 15, 2013 Share Posted April 15, 2013 He also wants three perfectly healthy children that are the product of the incest of two twins. GRRM doesn't bother with petty things like the science of genetics or economics.well actually i think first generation born out of incest dont necessarily need to be deformed or anything. the corruption of the gene pool takes place over time if new genetic material is not introduced in the mix over generations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Septon Meribald Posted April 15, 2013 Share Posted April 15, 2013 With Tywin dead, who does the crown pay for the debt to him? I imagine Cersei will play that to her advantage. With Tyrion on the run and Jaime in the KG, it seems like it will be hard to dispute her entitlement.With Tywin dead the debt goes to the new head of House Lannister. Cersei is certainly the top contender for that position at the moment, though that doesn't mean it won't be contested. Just like half the Karstarks claiming control of Karhold in place of Alys Cersei has many a cousin/uncle that could decide they have a better claim to Casterly Rock than a woman who is under the care of the Faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yi Ti Ninja Posted April 15, 2013 Share Posted April 15, 2013 Well I'm sure A medieval bank is not held to any regulations in terms of cash on hand. It's really not too difficult to imagine a bank in such a setting amassing such wealth either. I meant that most banks would keep cash on hand to manage credit withdrawls not that it was required by law, but by necessity. Modern banks do it today and no doubt they had to do it back then as well (especially if the bank was to become successful). Cash flows are crucial to liquidity and the success of how a business runs But realistically the fact seems to be GRRM wants a Venice w/o really caring about the economics.This. This is what made me more interested about the logistics. Good examples with the templars though, did not think of that. However, they had other advantages such as no taxes, free movement, as well as the inventive credit system, and many people 'donated' to the order. Iron Bank seems kind of vague as of now. For some reason, I think accounting and economics pre-disposes me to the logisitics of how such massive bank could run. If the extent of its power is true, then it literally is a kingdom maker. Reminds me of the one saying "the sinews of war is money" I have no doubt big banks could exist in such a world but the how is what im interested in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conon394 Posted April 15, 2013 Share Posted April 15, 2013 Well Braavos is the dominant sea power in the Narrow SeaAnd yet we see no sign that is true - Braavos does nothing. We do not see its warship around, patrolling, or enforcing its own trade rules. In the 4th forth century BC Athens was the dominate sea power in the Eastern Med. Its warships protected convoys, they showed up to to 'convince' locals to leave bankers and merchants who friends of Athens alone (or actually march them out of prison back to the safety of Athens), they enforced treaties that made trade flow to Athens first before it was re-sold and of course anyone named a 'pirate' was just cause for a bit of police action [see Hellenistic Rhodes for the same mix and solutions]... The result of course was that Athens had the most sophisticated and powerful banking economy of the day. For the IB to exist as it does Braavos needs monopolies and real actual sea power to be used to enforce trade flows. The Portuguese did not just sail around Africa for fun and Chris C did not get money from the Spanish Crown for his good looks - both countries were looking to circumvent the Venetian lock on key trade routes.The Ships of Braavos are obvious at minimum we need a least one anecdote such that the hammer of Braavos will fall heavy on any pirate or petty wrecker that harms a purple ship Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 15, 2013 Share Posted April 15, 2013 And what happens if Stannis dies, and someone else ends up sitting the IT? Let's say a Jon or a Dany that have nothing to do with the debts Robert made?Do they have to take over the debt?And if they don't, the bank would never lend them money to rebuild the realm?I'd say yes, they have to absorb the debt of Stannis & the Lannisters, because Stannis is grumbling in one of the books about having to absorb the debt of that "abomination Jofferey". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodyGoatHoat Posted April 15, 2013 Share Posted April 15, 2013 well actually i think first generation born out of incest dont necessarily need to be deformed or anything. the corruption of the gene pool takes place over time if new genetic material is not introduced in the mix over generations.I don't think that's right at all. There are severely increased risks of autosomal recessive diseases and other risk factors. The fact that they are identical twins would make it even worse. Also factor in that there appears to be no pre-natal care in Westeros. I'm not saying that the kid would have bat wings or anything, but the chances of all three children being as healthy as they are is very unlikely. Cersei would have miscarried frequently to say the least. With Tywin dead the debt goes to the new head of House Lannister. Cersei is certainly the top contender for that position at the moment, though that doesn't mean it won't be contested. Just like half the Karstarks claiming control of Karhold in place of Alys Cersei has many a cousin/uncle that could decide they have a better claim to Casterly Rock than a woman who is under the care of the Faith.Though her son, the king, would get to decide who has the claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady of Shalott Posted April 15, 2013 Share Posted April 15, 2013 How does a bank get so much money in the first place as well, from what I gather there are no stock markets or investments and it would seem unlikely that enough of the small folk or overseas merchants would place their money in the bank. -I always sort of assumed the FM put their money in the Iron Bank. That's of course assuming they don't own the Iron Bank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
werewolf Posted April 16, 2013 Author Share Posted April 16, 2013 Interesting discussion on this thread. If the gossamer web of finance has its centre in Braavos, then it should also be a trading hub and a naval hegemon (at the least). If the web of finance and trade is not centred in Braavos, one can legitimately ask what the system of finance, credit and trade is in the world composed of Essos and Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis Eats No Peaches Posted April 16, 2013 Share Posted April 16, 2013 I kind of want to see Braavos to mobilise against Westeros if Stannis dies (god forbid), just to see the can of whoop-ass they would open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Independent George Posted April 16, 2013 Share Posted April 16, 2013 Westerosi financial markets are incredibly primitive; most merchants and nobles likely operate using debt instruments, and rely on the Iron Bank for short-term liquidity. When the Bank squeezes cuts their lines of credit (as happens in FFC), the entire economy grinds to a halt as merchants and lesser nobles lose their operating capital, workers stop getting paid, and day-to-day operations cease.This has a huge ripple effect on the economy - the value of promissory notes decreases relative to the value of coin, which wealthy individuals start hoarding hard currency. This takes even more money out of circulation, and restarting the entire cycle. Creditors go under as the value of their loans drop, and they have to sell their markers at steep discounts just to stay afloat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfish Tully Posted April 16, 2013 Share Posted April 16, 2013 Westerosi financial markets are incredibly primitive; most merchants and nobles likely operate using debt instruments, and rely on the Iron Bank for short-term liquidity. When the Bank squeezes cuts their lines of credit (as happens in FFC), the entire economy grinds to a halt as merchants and lesser nobles lose their operating capital, workers stop getting paid, and day-to-day operations cease.This has a huge ripple effect on the economy - the value of promissory notes decreases relative to the value of coin, which wealthy individuals start hoarding hard currency. This takes even more money out of circulation, and restarting the entire cycle. Creditors go under as the value of their loans drop, and they have to sell their markers at steep discounts just to stay afloat.And if you are Littlefinger and you know this ripple effect is coming because you are (A) responsible for getting the Iron Throne in deep with the Iron Bank and (B) know there is a war coming because you are the one who started it , You could make a huge fortune by holding a lot of gold and buying the debt at huge discounts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fender Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 I don't think that's right at all. There are severely increased risks of autosomal recessive diseases and other risk factors. The fact that they are identical twins would make it even worse. Also factor in that there appears to be no pre-natal care in Westeros. I'm not saying that the kid would have bat wings or anything, but the chances of all three children being as healthy as they are is very unlikely. Cersei would have miscarried frequently to say the least. The risks are only there if the parents (Jaime and Cersei, in this case) were carriers of recessive congenital birth defects. If they were, then yes, their offspring will have an increased chance of inheriting them. However, if neither were carriers of any such defects, then their inbreeding in mass production would actually decrease the population's proportion of bad genes, with literally no adverse effects. That's really the extent of the consequences of incest; the offspring will have more similar genes, increasing the chances of displaying defective traits that are common in the family, but only if there are any to begin with. (Although I think that it's a fairly good guess to assume that no one has inherently flawless genetics.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Septon Meribald Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 And yet we see no sign that is true - Braavos does nothing. We do not see its warship around, patrolling, or enforcing its own trade rules. In the 4th forth century BC Athens was the dominate sea power in the Eastern Med. Its warships protected convoys, they showed up to to 'convince' locals to leave bankers and merchants who friends of Athens alone (or actually march them out of prison back to the safety of Athens), they enforced treaties that made trade flow to Athens first before it was re-sold and of course anyone named a 'pirate' was just cause for a bit of police action [see Hellenistic Rhodes for the same mix and solutions]... The result of course was that Athens had the most sophisticated and powerful banking economy of the day. For the IB to exist as it does Braavos needs monopolies and real actual sea power to be used to enforce trade flows. The Portuguese did not just sail around Africa for fun and Chris C did not get money from the Spanish Crown for his good looks - both countries were looking to circumvent the Venetian lock on key trade routes.The Ships of Braavos are obvious at minimum we need a least one anecdote such that the hammer of Braavos will fall heavy on any pirate or petty wrecker that harms a purple shipWe do have anecdotal evidence of this. Arya comments on the massive fortifications of the Braavosi harbor as well as the huge compliment of heavy warships in the Arsenal. A few characters have mentioned the fact that the Braavosi boast of being able to build a complete warship in a day. As far as enforcing their power one of the Myrish (Lysene, maybe) slaver ships that picked up the wildlings at Hardhome was boarded and taken prisoner by the Braavosi for violating the their antislavery laws. Braavos doesn't need to take the active imperialist stance of the Athenian empire to be a financial super power. Use of hard power tends to breed resentment and bind others together against you. Use of soft power is much less dangerous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Independent George Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 It's a throwaway line, but Illyrio says to Tyrion in DWD that slavery was illegal in Pentos according to the terms of the treaty that Braavos imposed upon them. They might not be conquering the free cities militarily, but they do seem to be the dominant economic power on both continents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentSense Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 given the enduring political instability surrounding the iron throne, risk premiums must have skyrocketed. The iron bank would be wise to hedge by acquiring sellsword futures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 Interesting discussion on this thread. If the gossamer web of finance has its centre in Braavos, then it should also be a trading hub and a naval hegemon (at the least). If the web of finance and trade is not centred in Braavos, one can legitimately ask what the system of finance, credit and trade is in the world composed of Essos and Westeros.It is, isn't it? The book says that the IB is larger than the rest of the banks in the free cities combined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarl the climber Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 And yet we see no sign that is true - Braavos does nothing. We do not see its warship around, patrolling, or enforcing its own trade rules. In the 4th forth century BC Athens was the dominate sea power in the Eastern Med. Its warships protected convoys, they showed up to to 'convince' locals to leave bankers and merchants who friends of Athens alone (or actually march them out of prison back to the safety of Athens), they enforced treaties that made trade flow to Athens first before it was re-sold and of course anyone named a 'pirate' was just cause for a bit of police action [see Hellenistic Rhodes for the same mix and solutions]... The result of course was that Athens had the most sophisticated and powerful banking economy of the day. For the IB to exist as it does Braavos needs monopolies and real actual sea power to be used to enforce trade flows. The Portuguese did not just sail around Africa for fun and Chris C did not get money from the Spanish Crown for his good looks - both countries were looking to circumvent the Venetian lock on key trade routes.The Ships of Braavos are obvious at minimum we need a least one anecdote such that the hammer of Braavos will fall heavy on any pirate or petty wrecker that harms a purple shipTyrion sent Myrcella to Dorne via Bravos where she switched to a Bravosi ship in the beleif that Stannis would not risk dragging Bravos into the war. So Tyrion beleived that they would go to war if Stannis breached their nuetrality and that Stannis would not risk it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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